The Wise Man's Fear VIII

[CapedCrusader]

If she were a male fae Kvothe would have murdered her for being a rapist.

lol never thought of that

[Nisheeth]

Okay, here's something odd.

In NOTW, the people that came to the Waystone Inn at night surprised Kvote in the middle of his story (when he was about to tell that he found the way into in the Archives from the Underthing). Yet, in WMF, he is able to stop the story before anyone was able to reah the door giving everyone time enough to compose themselves. What happened in the intervening day that allowed him to know if someone was coming to the inn?

ETA: I had another thought after reading this line:

Still, I wish I’d been braver and Shep was home kissing his young wife, too

Kvothe regarding Shep.

I was thinking that maybe his inability to use Sympathy was maybe due to his lack of courage. If a person suffers a trauma while they were doing something, they would feel hesitation and fear at doing the same thing (like if a person barely survives after nearly drowning, they might become afraid of swimming). Maybe something like this happened to Kvothe preventing him from performing Sympathy?

ETA 2:

“Names,” Dal said firmly, and drew his hand back out of the fire. It was smudged with white ash, but perfectly unharmed. "Names reflect true understanding of a thing, and when you truly understand a thing you have power over it.”

Doesn't Dal's description of names sound too familiar to the shaper's description?

[Kv0th3]

Felurian charms men to have sex with her, knowing it will kill them. If she were a male fae Kvothe would have murdered her for being a rapist. Granted, this slanted view on Kvothe's part might be pointing to Kvothe's troubling morals (which I don't think Rothfuss endorses).

None of them say no, so its not really rape, they all chase after her...

And she doesnt know it will kill them (since it doesnt always kill them), there is a story about a young man going with her, and returning years later an old man. That would imply that he spent almost a lifetime with her...

[Kv0th3]

Kvothe regarding Shep.

I was thinking that maybe his inability to use Sympathy was maybe due to his lack of courage. If a person suffers a trauma while they were doing something, they would feel hesitation and fear at doing the same thing (like if a person barely survives after nearly drowning, they might become afraid of swimming). Maybe something like this happened to Kvothe preventing him from performing Sympathy?

It is possible, but I think it is more like he regrets not attacking the whateveritwas like Shep did...

[bradd]

Came up with a random question last night which is pretty obvious, I'm surprised I haven't seen it asked before... which means it probably has been and I just haven't seen it :)

If the Chandrian kill everyone who tells stories about them, why is Skarpi still alive? And we know he is because he's mentioned in the frame story...

[thistlepong]

Doesn't Dal's description of names sound too familiar to the shaper's description?

It does. I think I've pointed to it before, but perhaps never so bluntly. It's among the reasons I think naming and shaping are essentially the same thing married to different ideologies. The old name knowers were contents to know the name of the fox and the hare and the space (wind) between them. The shapers weren't, they sought mastery over them. Elodin says pretty much the same thing during Fela's promotion: "A student who gained mastery over a name would wear a ring as declaration of their skill.”

None of them say no, so its not really rape, they all chase after her...

And she doesnt know it will kill them (since it doesnt always kill them), there is a story about a young man going with her, and returning years later an old man. That would imply that he spent almost a lifetime with her...

No one under the influence of flunitrazepam says no either. Is a magical version any different? Similarly, it's not okay just because Fae have blue and orange morals. Kvothe, in fact, is pretty black and white on this. He's shown to be noble given the opportunity with Denna, and resistant even in the throes of plum bob with Fela. So, he just thinks it rocks to bang the sex fairy and since he got to she's alright, even pitiable.

If the Chandrian kill everyone who tells stories about them, why is Skarpi still alive? And we know he is because he's mentioned in the frame story...

It's part of a broader theme. It would have been impossible for Arliden to gather stories about them or for any to exist in the Archives if they had a 100% clearance rate. However, so far as we've seen they always leave someone alive to tell the tale. Kvothe. Nina (or Nina and Denna.)

Still, it might be a clue. "Lanre is one of the Chandrian," might not be the big secret Arliden died for. On the other hand, if it is, they're already coming for Kvothe. Damn, bradd, that's ticklish. Thanks.

[JezDynamite]

Came up with a random question last night which is pretty obvious, I'm surprised I haven't seen it asked before... which means it probably has been and I just haven't seen it :)

If the Chandrian kill everyone who tells stories about them, why is Skarpi still alive? And we know he is because he's mentioned in the frame story...

I still think a person needs to say their true names a few times within a reasonable time period (as Shehyn alludes to) to draw their attention. I don't think Skarpi uses their true names.

[bradd]

Ah Jez... I thought I was on to something there :P

Skarpi mentions Haliax, but you're right, that's not quite Alaxel. Still, if that's their goal they can't like the fact that he's around talking about them right? I agree with thistle - they obviously haven't killed every story - but Skarpi seems like too big of a player for them not to know about him...

[JezDynamite]

Yeah Bradd. I know what you mean. It is very frustrating that people in the story know specific rules that we don't.

Thistlepong peaked my interest on the tor reread site last week when talking about Denna and her braids. So I went back and read chapter 73 and I think I noticed a few things and I'd love to hear your thoughts:

1. Denna had three tied off braids in her hair when she met K before the lead in to her singing her first song, during her singing and up until the middle of the subsequent argument with K.

2. I agree with the thinking that her braids, at this point in time, are magical. I imagine the braids saying something like: "Be honest with me", which is what I would want from someone before playing my first ever song to them.

3. Every comment Kvothe says to Denna (until she changes her braids) is his honest opinion. He doesn't lose control, and he also uncharacteristically admits twice that D is "incredible" - which strikes me as his honest opnion.

4. Each of D's reactions to his comments seem consistent with someone who believes they are hearing the truth. She is shocked when K tells her that he thinks Lanre is a Chandrian, she stares at him for a long moment, and then she tries to makes sense of "K's belief that he's telling the truth" by incredulously telling him "what kind of a child are you?".

5. K only changes his mood (loses his cool) once Denna changes her braids and he goes out of control. I can imagine the new braids meaning: "Be brutally honest."

------------------------

I'm not sure if this has been raised before but..........

I wonder if Denna has a knack for tying (braids/Yllish story knots) and she is perfecting it with her patron. I think she first learns that her braids are magical from her patron.

Perhaps her patron met her one day, saw one of the braids woven into her hair, became intrigued by its similarity to a Yllish story knot, decided to introduce himself and then woos her when he realises how he can use her.

Up until her patron telling her that there is magic in her braids, she could be oblivious to her braids being magical. To confirm what her patron tells her about her magical braiding technique, it might explain why she'd look for confirmation from "K and his friends" about whether a written form of magic exists that "makes things true".

When she realises her braids are magical, naturally she'd trust her patron more since he revealed this to her. It also explains her proficiency with braids (her knack) without needing to study knots (or Yllish) for years.

Denna's knack could mean she doesn't have to understand Yllish. Just like a person who has a knack for opening locks doesn't need to understand what type of lock is being opened or how the lock is made. Or a person with a knack for plants doesn't need to know soil or fertilizer.

This could give credence to Cinder being her patron and what might attract someone like Cinder to Denna.

This also makes me wonder if Yllish story knots are Cinder's method for hiding his telltale signs (the Cthaeh said the Chandrian are practiced at hiding their telltale signs). Other than Yllish story knots, Glamourie or simple deception/disguise, have we seen any other forms of magic to hide a person's appearance?

[bradd]

Oh nice Jez - I really like that idea. I gives her patron a reason for approaching her in the first place which is a sticking point on any theory. The timing for her asking the boys about written magic makes sense too... I guess it would kind of work like Kvothe's naming ability. He seems to subconsciously "name" things verbally, maybe she does the same thing but with her hair. So if she's feeling shy she subconsciously braids "don't look at me" or if she's angry it's "don't talk to me". There are a lot of parallels between Denna and Kvothe, and this could be another one. I really like that, nice catch :)

On hiding an appearance, I can give you another two - grammarie and glamourie. Felurian uses grammarie to create the shaed... we don't get a lot of info on it but it's hard to define what it looks like - there might be something there. Probably more useful though would be glamourie, which strikes me like "illusion"... that would be handy to hide behind. There's also whatever Haliax (and later Cinder in the Eld) used to disappear/teleport away from Kvothe. There's nothing definitive on whether or not it is teleporting or disappearing but I'm leaning towards the latter as the find footprints out of the area in the Eld.

Nice work :)

[Ninefingers]

gives her patron a reason for approaching her in the first place which is a sticking point on any theory.

This is an enormous sticking point for me. It just seems like a huge coincidence for one of the thousands of year old magic baddies to have taken a huge interest in the same girl that our hero happened to bump into on a trip from city to city and then become infatuated with.

The only way it makes any sense is if there is intent on someone's part (presumably the patron) to either (a) cause Kvothe pain by causing pain to someone he cares about, or (B) manipulate Kvothe in some way.

The Chandrian just don't fit IMO. What would be their motivation to do this?

I say it's either one of Kvothe's enemies (Ambrose orchestrating it seems likely, maybe Hemme?) or it's just a random person. (Are there any real indications that it's more than just random person X?)

[Nisheeth]

I don't think the Patron is someone from the University. And that person is Definitely not Ambrose. Denna knew Ambrose was a student in the University, they didn't meet secretively and he is nowhere near the description of Master Ash.

More over Ambrose didn't know that Kvothe knew Denna, let alone had feelings for her. If he had known he would have used her to hurt him when she was with him.

The simple fact that who the patron is has been kept a secret for so long, and the build-up regarding him hints that he is important.

Somethings that are to be answered regarding him:

1) Why did Denna not leave him as she leaves others, event tough beats her?

2) Why was he at the Wedding in Trebon? Why was he questioning Denna about the people present there?

3) Why is he so secretive?

[Ninefingers]

I don't think the Patron is someone from the University. And that person is Definitely not Ambrose. Denna knew Ambrose was a student in the University, they didn't meet secretively and he is nowhere near the description of Master Ash.

More over Ambrose didn't know that Kvothe knew Denna, let alone had feelings for her. If he had known he would have used her to hurt him when she was with him.

I should have been more clear on Ambrose - I would expect him to use an intermediary, much like he did when blackballing Kvothe out of the inns in Imre. I don't think he would directly act.

[Ninefingers]

1) Why did Denna not leave him as she leaves others, event tough beats her?

2) Why was he at the Wedding in Trebon? Why was he questioning Denna about the people present there?

3) Why is he so secretive?

1) Didn't the Citeth say she thinks she deserves it? (Or am I making that up?)

2) I have no idea (I need to reread this section.)

3) He beats women.

I agree with you that the secret having been kept so long adds to its importance, but I'm not sure that it follows that it's someone we already know. It could just be a rich/powerful/important person, and the reason it is important is because of what Kvothe does when he meets him. (If he's the prince of bla-bla-bla and Kvothe kills him, the importance "requirement" is satisfied)

[Nisheeth]

Indeed. But then, there must be a reason for him killing the Patron (apart from the patron beating Denna. However much he is like an Amyr, he won't go to such ends without reason [or maybe he would?]).

1) Actually, no he never said she deserved it.

3) That would be partly related to the first one, if he beats women to gain pleasure (i.e. he is a sadist), I don't think Denna has any reason to stay with him.

About Ambrose, as I stated, it doesn't seem as if he knows that Denna & Kvothe know each other. He would have at least goaded to Kvothe about getting familiar with her (whether it be lies, or truth). And as for the someone like Hemme, He won't go to such length;s just to hurt Kvothe. He hates Kvothe, but is definitely no plotter (or is he? (maybe he is behind the chancellor being ill?))

[Ninefingers]

Indeed. But then, there must be a reason for him killing the Patron (apart from the patron beating Denna. However much he is like an Amyr, he won't go to such ends without reason [or maybe he would?]).

I think literally everything is on the table when it comes to what Kvothe will do to the patron when they meet.

[stumpzapper]

And as for the someone like Hemme, He won't go to such length;s just to hurt Kvothe. He hates Kvothe, but is definitely no plotter (or is he? (maybe he is behind the chancellor being ill?))

I always figured it was one of the Amyr or someone who knows Shaping (or fears it) poisoning the chancellor. At first I assumed that Hemme poisoned the chancellor to usurp the position, but the chancellor becomes sick after he starts teaching Kvothe Yllish knots. There's been a lot posted in these threads about the possible role Yllish knots play in various forms of magic (for example Jez' great theory on Denna's braids), and I wonder if someone is trying to keep Kvothe from learning Yllish rather than trying to take the chancellor's position. They could be doing this either because they don't want other people to share in their awesome power, or because they know how dangerous Yllish knots can be (and know that Kvothe is preternaturally gifted and irresponsible).

My first instinct for a culprit would be Elodin, since he above all other people would know of the danger involved and isn't above sabotaging the other masters (for example setting Hemm's rooms on fire). But by the end of WMF he's pretty chummy with Kvothe and if there were a genuine danger I would imagine he'd try to mentor Kvothe rather than undermine him. Maybe Lorren? The Cthaeh does mention that some of the masters at the university would be able to help Kvothe with his search for the Chandrian but won't. This implies that some of them at least have deeper knowledge of ancient lore, and therefore probably uses of Yllish knots, than your average scholar. just some food for thought.

[CapedCrusader]

I think there HAS to the a second trilogy focusing on Kvothe's present situation.

Here, the third question from the top seems to heavily imply there is going to be a second trilogy. Rothfuss doesn't exactly address the second half of the question, and it seems like he's ignoring it. Perhaps he wants to keep it a secret until after book 3 is out.

http://www.sffworld.com/interview/224p0.html

[dbcooper]

Pretty sure Rothfuss has said Kvothe's story is done when the trilogy is done and that his next work would be something different. Someone should fact check me on this though.

[aimlessgun]

Oh dear....a WMF thread, and I've just finished WMF.

I'm sure everything I'm about to type is familiar ground. But I have to get this rant out anyways, so don't mind me.

You know that character in stories that isn't exactly a villain, but that the audience certainly dislikes? The character that is too good at everything, is too handsome, too smart, too witty, too talented?

Rothfuss decided to take that character and make him the protagonist of a trilogy. And by the middle of WMF, I just got completely fed up with it. Fuck Kvothe and his fancy name and his true red hair. What a fucking douchebag.

The last straw was probably Felurian. What's something that 16 year old virgin Kvothe hasn't mastered yet? Oh, sex. K, let's have him stumble on a sex goddess, who supposedly breaks mens minds but NP, Kvothe can actually subdue and kill this thousands of years old fae creature.

Oh and by the way? Even the first time, he was pretty good in the sack. Fuck you Kvothe.

The incredible spread of talents, the way other characters react to him (especially women), the incredible luck/contrivances of the story (the whole Adem saga, couldn't have Rothfuss just saved us some time and written "and then he learned how to fight from the Adem and they gave him a badass sword"), it's just all added up and at this point I don't know if I can keep reading this story.

There certainly isn't any tension left in anything. When Vashet told him that she would beat him until he left, I doubled over laughing. The idea that Kvothe would leave with anything less than the eternal friendship of the Adem, martial prowess and an awesome sword was completely ridiculous.

And honestly Rothfuss' attempts to give him flaws highlight the problem even more. His flaws are of the type where, oh, he wasn't really that great at his 7th language. Or he failed chemistry because of philosophical differences with his teacher (even though given a couple months of hard study the reader knows he'd be a better alchemist than Simm could ever be). It would honestly be better if Rothfuss stopped with his weak attempts at humanizing Kvothe and just went all out with a heroic demigod character.

There were two 'stand up and cheer' moments in the book: When Devi kicked his shit in, and when the Ctaeth kicked his shit in. Though of course when he gets back from Severen Devi falls over him, "oh Kvothe, I was so worried about you". Sickening, but for beating him silly earlier in the book she still counts among my favorite characters. And I don't expect Rothfuss to use her as anything beyond windowdressing, leaving this woman of amazing talents as nothing more than an amusing moneylender for the rest of the trilogy.

Probably the only thing that could redeeem the trilogy in my eyes at this point is if Kote is a completely unreliable narrator and is making half of what he says up.

Anyways, rant over, apologies. I'll go now.

PS: Is many respects Rothfuss is an incredible writer and does a lot of things really really well. But if you despise the protagonist of a story, it tends to tar everything with the same brush.