The Wise Man's Fear VIII

[two_by_two]

In WMF, kvothe swears to Denna that he will not attempt to pursue her patron on his power, his name, and his good left hand. I am just wondering, do many people subscribe to the theory that that oath is the cause of kvothe's current state?

Another question, what do most people think dennas name will be? Is her real name a name we have already seen, or will it be something that isn't very important?

Apologies for the double post.

In my opinion, unless Denna is actually someone important (Princess Ariel, Natalia Lackless), her real name is unimportant. Kvothe knows her as Denna, and as we see with Auri, when Kvothe calls you something, that's what's important. I can't tell if she's on the run yet the first time they meet, so it's possible Denna is actually her real name. Additionally, the name "Denna" could be, in my opinion, the one constant in her life - it's the only thing she gets to keep, not only each time she reappears, but also that is outside her professional life.

Here's something interesting. For all Kvothe's talk about how important it is that he himself give Denna his name upon their second meeting, when they first meet, we learn her name through the narrator. She never introduces herself or even says her name anywhere in those chapters.

[bradd]

Agreed, Denna's real name is probably unimportant... saying that though, I think there is significance in the fact that Kvothe decides to call her Denna given his skill at subconsciously naming things. I think either her real name is Denna (or something close to it) or it is a link to a similar word (like Denner resin, with Kvothe's subconscious implying she is addictive).

[stumpzapper]

In WMF, kvothe swears to Denna that he will not attempt to pursue her patron on his power, his name, and his good left hand. I am just wondering, do many people subscribe to the theory that that oath is the cause of kvothe's current state?

Another question, what do most people think dennas name will be? Is her real name a name we have already seen, or will it be something that isn't very important?

I think there's a evidence to link his oath and his (presumed) current disability. Rereading NotW and WMF after reading some forum posts on his hand I picked up on a lot more hints that his left hand has been crippled. A couple of times he squeezes his right hand (not hands) into a a fist when he's angry. Once is with the Chronicler early on in NotW, and once is when they're talking about tax collectors. I also noticed that during his time at the University when he gets angry he squeezes both hands into fists. This along with his inability to do the two handed Ademre move in the frame story, him rubbing his hand when he finds out the Cthaeh flower is a panacea, etc. I think are all strong evidence that his left hand is crippled somehow. I think it's an unlikely coincidence the he swears by his good left hand (which he even admits is a strange vow since usually people swear by their right hand) andhis left hand is crippled. Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't he swear by his left hand that he won't tell anyone about the secret Lackless box either? My guess is that the breaking of his vows will result in the crippling of his hand, but I think Rothfuss is using the vows as foreshadowing rather than actual divine retribution. For instance, I imagine that Kvothe will end up looking for Denna's patron, find out the patron is Cinder, fight Cinder, and injure his hand in the process (this would be opposed to Aleph or Tehlu or whoever decending from the heavens and smiting him for breaking his vow). I think a lot of PR's writing builds up to this sort of subtle climax.

As for Denna's name I wouldn't be surprised (as other people have mentioned before me) that Denna is her given name. She even makes some comment to Kvothe about Denna being a silly, naive girl. I wouldn't be surprised if Kvothe met Denna when she was initially running away from home before she began changing her name. On a semi-related note this might also tie into job the assassins "cocked up" in Analin (sp?). People have mentioned that Denna was going to Analin when she initially traveled with Kvothe and have made some guesses that maybe the assassins were after Denna. But people assume that they were trying to kill someone. Maybe they were simply trying to locate a runaway girl (for some reason I have it in my head that Denna may have been nobility, but I could be totally wrong). Even if they were out for blood and looking for her, it would explain why she starts changing her name. So she starts as Denna, runs away to Analin naively using her own name (and meets Kvothe on the way), someone tryies to locate/kidnap/murder her in Analin, and she begins changing her name and moving around so that the people looking for her can't find her.

[two_by_two]

I think there's a evidence to link his oath and his (presumed) current disability. Rereading NotW and WMF after reading some forum posts on his hand I picked up on a lot more hints that his left hand has been crippled. A couple of times he squeezes his right hand (not hands) into a a fist when he's angry. Once is with the Chronicler early on in NotW, and once is when they're talking about tax collectors. I also noticed that during his time at the University when he gets angry he squeezes both hands into fists. This along with his inability to do the two handed Ademre move in the frame story, him rubbing his hand when he finds out the Cthaeh flower is a panacea, etc. I think are all strong evidence that his left hand is crippled somehow. I think it's an unlikely coincidence the he swears by his good left hand (which he even admits is a strange vow since usually people swear by their right hand) andhis left hand is crippled. Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't he swear by his left hand that he won't tell anyone about the secret Lackless box either? My guess is that the breaking of his vows will result in the crippling of his hand, but I think Rothfuss is using the vows as foreshadowing rather than actual divine retribution. For instance, I imagine that Kvothe will end up looking for Denna's patron, find out the patron is Cinder, fight Cinder, and injure his hand in the process (this would be opposed to Aleph or Tehlu or whoever decending from the heavens and smiting him for breaking his vow). I think a lot of PR's writing builds up to this sort of subtle climax.

As for Denna's name I wouldn't be surprised (as other people have mentioned before me) that Denna is her given name. She even makes some comment to Kvothe about Denna being a silly, naive girl. I wouldn't be surprised if Kvothe met Denna when she was initially running away from home before she began changing her name. On a semi-related note this might also tie into job the assassins "cocked up" in Analin (sp?). People have mentioned that Denna was going to Analin when she initially traveled with Kvothe and have made some guesses that maybe the assassins were after Denna. But people assume that they were trying to kill someone. Maybe they were simply trying to locate a runaway girl (for some reason I have it in my head that Denna may have been nobility, but I could be totally wrong). Even if they were out for blood and looking for her, it would explain why she starts changing her name. So she starts as Denna, runs away to Analin naively using her own name (and meets Kvothe on the way), someone tryies to locate/kidnap/murder her in Analin, and she begins changing her name and moving around so that the people looking for her can't find her.

I agree with you on the foreshadowing rather than divine retribution. Even if the crippling is a direct result of his broken oath, it will likely be administered in some more mysterious way.

That's a good point about Denna, but it seems rather unlikely that a) her family would hire a couple of thugs to track her down, and that B) they would have cocked it up so royally as to still remember it a year or so later. Or was it a year? If it were only a few months, then it's more reasonable.

[stumpzapper]

That's a good point about Denna, but it seems rather unlikely that a) her family would hire a couple of thugs to track her down, and that B) they would have cocked it up so royally as to still remember it a year or so later. Or was it a year? If it were only a few months, then it's more reasonable.

I think it was only about six months, certainly less than a year (though we should probably ask resident OCD Thistlepong for his opinion). As for using thugs, I think someone interested in finding someone in the dark underbelly of a city would use people comfortable in that environment. Ambrose is the son of a powerful baron and doesn't seem to have a problem using common thugs to do his bidding. That being said, we assume that the two assassins are common thugs, but we have no evidence of this. They seem to be experienced trackers, perhaps they only moonlight as assassins? They do use the whatsamajiggy compass (the name escapes me) to locate Kvothe, and I assumed that Ambrose - or his intermediary - gave it to them. But maybe they have such tools of their own, either from previous jobs or of their own devising. If the two assassins were experienced trackers it would explain why members of the underworld are no longer remorely interested in trying to kill Kvothe since he was able to maim a pair of truly dangerous men.

ETA: If the two were truly a pair of top-tier trackers/assassins with a stellar track record they would certainly rememember a royal cock up in Analin after it all went south.

[thistlepong]

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, but I'll take a stab at it. If the cock-up in Anilin was related to Denna, then it's certainly less than a year prior to the attack on Kvothe. The entirety of the University section of NotW takes place in less than a year.

They might have killed Josn, I suppose; young nice looking fella handy with a lute and a decent singing voice in the company of a certain young woman. But that would mean Ambrose had nothing to do with it. I got the impression from Kvothe's conversation with Sleat that he did. It's nothing concrete, of course.

[Sci-2]

I wonder if Rothfuss does emphasise the unreliable narrator in the final book what the ratio will be between people who thinks it's an interesting narrative trick that adds new depth to the story and people who have been reading the series uncritically and might be unhappy or angry that they haven't been reading what they think they've been reading? In terms of his future commercial success it might not be the best move, which isn't to say that he shouldn't necessarily do it.

I think it would be more a matter of having enough clues to the reader by the end, enough possible discrepancies, that one can take the story as is OR decide it's a lie. Grant Morrison did something similar at the end of Black Glove.

[stumpzapper]

One other thought that's been tugging at my mind recently is the ending of the trilogy, and this sort of relates to what aimlessgun7 was critiquing. I think people hoping for a sunny happy ending are going to be sad kids come Christmas morning. I also doubt that Kvothe is an unreliable narrator, in that Bast is there who has some idea of the true nature of events(though he does accuse Kvothe of spinning straw into gold, which I took to mean that Kvothe may be embellishing a bit). The reason I say this is that a lot of the structure of KKC mimics that of a classical tragedy. In most of the old tragedies the plot didn't center on an avergae Joe, it centered on the best and the brightest: victorious generals, aristocrats, rich lords, etc. So when aimlessgun says he hates Kvothe because he's too perfect, this is in line with past tragic characters. Oedipus was born of nobility and adopted by nobility and was a beloved son. Hamlet was a popular prince who was not only trendy he SET the fashion trends in his kingdom. Macbeth was the top general for Duncan fresh off a victory. Othello is a also a top general and well loved by the populous. Kvothe is preternaturally talented, handsome, and charming (and is climbing some socail ranks).

And like Kvothe, all these characters have a fatal flaw that leads to their downfall: Oedipus has his anger and his pride (plus his Oedipus complex - what are the odds? it's like Lou Gehrig getting Lou Gehrig's disease), Hamlet has his crippling doubt, Macbeth has his ambition and poor choice in spouses, and Othello has his jealousy. Kvothe has his arrogance and recklessness. In many cases the downfall of these supermen is also triggered by some sort of supernatural force: Oedipus consults the oracle and receives a self-fulfilling prophecy, the ghost of Hamlet's father swears him to vengeance, and Macbeth is told by the three wiches that he will become king of Scotland. In Kvothe's case he has both the death of his parents at the hands of the Chandrain and his encounter with the Cthaeh.

Finally the overarching structure of KKC is similar to a tragedy as well. Most tragedies are roughly divided into three parts. There is the initial part where you're introduced to the tragic figure, and you see how wonderful they are and how they overcome adversity; they overcome early setbacks, they claim glory, they become rich, etc, but they are well on their way to becoming a legend among men. In the second part they usually achieve their legendary status or the goal for which they were striving but at some cosmic cost (this would be the section where Oedipus kills his father, usurps his father's throne, and marries his own mother without knowing it; Macbeth murders Duncan); at this point they are sort of sitting on top of the world but the audience knows the fall is coming if even they don't. The third part of the tragedy is where the decisions and fatal flaw of the character finally bring them down, ending in disaster; lots of people die, people blind themselves in anger, etc, etc. If you compare this sructure to KKC you'll see they line up pretty well. By the end of NotW Kvothe has overcome his initial adversity, called the wind and is on his way to greatness. At the end of WMF he has had huge, legendary adventures, is now comfotably wealthy, and is on his way to being a namer. But along the way he made some major mistakes: he talked to the Cthaeh, he killed the false Edema Ruh, he crossed Maluin (sp?) Lackless, he's made a huge enemy of Ambrose. Kvothe even says to the Chronicler at the end of WMF that "this is a good place to stop. Pretty soon things get a lot darker."

So I think at the end of the day Kvothe will remain a tragic figure, not unreliable and certainly not triumphant. If you're hoping for a happy-ish ending, my guess is the best you can hope for is him doing something small and symbolic that might possibly make a difference in the war in the far future, and then walking into the Vintish forest to honor his promise to return to Fellurian.

[two_by_two]

If you're hoping for a happy-ish ending, my guess is the best you can hope for is him doing something small and symbolic that might possibly make a difference in the war in the far future, and then walking into the Vintish forest to honor his promise to return to Fellurian.

Mmmm yes I forgot about his promise to return to Felurian. That would be a nice way to avoid either of the cliches of him regaining power or dying.

[bradd]

I just read the promise to Felurian chapter again last night and was thinking exactly the same thing :) Probably a bit of a stretch, but is Kvothe waiting to die because he knows he needs to return to Felurian?

[thistlepong]

Okay, that's an interesting take on it. You'd assume that returning to Felurian wouldn't be something to dread or be disappointed by if you're Kvothe. He loved it but he had things to do. I suppose if he's shattered and powerless it's more of a surrender than it would have been at the height of his power.

To be fair to aimlessgun, while the post might not have added anythiI wonder if Rothfuss does emphasise the unreliable narrator in the final book what the ratio will be between people who thinks it's an interesting narrative trick that adds new depth to the story and people who have been reading the series uncritically and might be unhappy or angry that they haven't been reading what they think they've been reading? In terms of his future commercial success it might not be the best move, which isn't to say that he shouldn't necessarily do it.

I think it would be more a matter of having enough clues to the reader by the end, enough possible discrepancies, that one can take the story as is OR decide it's a lie. Grant Morrison did something similar at the end of Black Glove.

I tend to think there's already enough to call into question his reliability. Anyone who keeps dropping how stories change, get exaggerated, morph completely, or even are intentionally lies probably can't be taken at face value. Add to that the definite time discrepancy between Hallowfell and Tarbean. Consider the events and conclusions he comes to that he cannot know for certain.

When (if?) the story ends on a dour note more fans are likely to feel betrayed than if Chronicler points out a couple glaring inconsistencies that undoubtedly call into question Kvothe's honesty. I think he's unreliable, but I agree with sciborg2. Perhaps that's 'cause I'm familiar with Morrison and Rushdie and I rather like them.

The real trick is breaking the hearts of fans who want the flying-wizard-laying-waste-to-the-chandrian ending and having them thank him for it.

[Ninefingers]

The real trick is breaking the hearts of fans who want the flying-wizard-laying-waste-to-the-chandrian ending and having them thank him for it.

Very well put.

I'm not cheering for any particular ending, but after reading Book 1 I would have laid good money against long odds that the series was going to break down as:

Book 1: Kvothe at the University

Book 2: An accounting of the deeds that made Kvothe famous

Book 3: Return to the present day, deal with the current conflict (whatever it may be)

[Darth Vader's Bastard]

he better kill a king and destroy the chandrian by the end of book 3 or I will be asking for my money back.

[Sci-2]

he better kill a king and destroy the chandrian by the end of book 3 or I will be asking for my money back.

We're debating if he will even kill one Chandrian. I think he'll kill Cinder, but that's all. There's no way he beats all of them.

I just hope Iax comes out of the Doors of Stone to play, and the supporting cast has to band together to stop him after Kvothe dies.

[Ninefingers]

he better kill a king and destroy the chandrian by the end of book 3 or I will be asking for my money back.

You'll be asking for half your money back.

He'll kill a king, but the 7 haven't survived thousands of years to lose to the likes of Kvothe.

[Slick Mongoose]

I just hope Iax comes out of the Doors of Stone to play, and the supporting cast has to band together to stop him after Kvothe dies.

And

[Ninefingers]

We're debating if he will even kill one Chandrian. I think he'll kill Cinder, but that's all. There's no way he beats all of them.

I just hope Iax comes out of the Doors of Stone to play, and the supporting cast has to band together to stop him after Kvothe dies.

As a relative noob around here (long time lurker), has anyone posted a list of the theories of what the "Doors of Stone" are? (I looked through a couple of the threads and didn't find much)

The ones that occur to me off the top are:

1. The Lackless door

2. The doors in the university archives

3. The waystones/greystones

Personally, I'm convinced that the answer is #3, but I'd be interested if ( a ) there's a common consensus as to the answer, and ( b ) if I've missed any common/obvious theories.

Thanks

[Nisheeth]

If I remember correctly, one theory was that the Four-Plate Door, Valaritas, is the Lackless door.

Though, in my opinion, The Greystones fit the description pretty well.

[bradd]

I have one issue with the doors of stone leading to Fae, based on what Felurian says to Kvothe about the boy who stole the moon - "I will not name him, even though he is shut beyond the doors of stone". It's the "even though" bit that gets me - Felurian seems scared of him and "even though" he is locked behind the doors of stone she won't name him. If the doors of stone led to the Fae, then grammatically that doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't preclude the doors from being in Fae, but it kinda counts against them leading to Fae - otherwise the fact that he was locked behind the doors of stone (ie in Fae) would be irrelevant. I didn't explain that very well, but does it make sense?

I have a kind of out there proposal for the doors of stone - I don't think I've seen this one proposed before and I doubt it's 100% correct, but it kind of makes sense... two things pushed me in this direction. First was Vashets story about the origins of the Adem (they were forced out of their original homeland and settled within Ademre) and the fact that Ademre isn't contained within the 4C (I'm guessing that's why it doesn't have a coloured border on PR's map). Second was the assumed location of Newarre and the scrael crossing the Stormwal (you can probably see where I'm going with this already).

I'm taking an educated guess here that the Empire of Ergen geographically covered the same territory as the 4C - we have guesses at locations for Tinue, Belen and Myr Tariniel and they all fit in this space. I'm thinking the simplest answer then for where the "enemy" came from is the only place connected to the 4C by land - across the Stormwal. It kind of makes sense too if you think about it - again, assuming MT is at the end of the Great Stone Road, it would be the "front line" against the enemy, trying to stop them crossing the Stormwal. With the Tahl living on the other side of Stormwal, this might make them descendants of the original enemy, and explain why the Chandrian fear the Singers.

So another idea - what if the doors of stone block off the passes through the Storwal? Think the passage under the Wall in ASOIAF. There may be one, or there may be several, but the neatest idea I've got is that there is one "main" set of doors contained in MT. It makes setting the enemy behind the doors of stone a bit more straightforward - the armies of Ergen push the enemy back through MT and the Stormwal then lock the gates. A bit of old school magic to ward the doors, and now the enemy is shut behind them. It may even explain the Lackless door - I've mentioned before that I think their lands are near the ruins of MT, maybe their door is one of these "doors of stone" and the only thing on the other side is a passage through the Stormwal?

As a general concept, I kind of like that idea - but if you want to go fully down the rabbit hole, I can take you one step further :) One guess on MT is that it's at the end of the road. Another guess is that it's in Fae. I think both of these can be correct if Fae is also on the other side of the Stormwal :)

I don't really have a lot of evidence to support this one which is why I say I'm not 100% convinced, but it sort of makes sense. When Fae was created, the world was cracked - maybe the Stormwal was "created" to divide Fae and the 4C. The 4C and Fae share a moon. This could work if they were on the same world. Yup, I agree that by the laws of astrodynamics it makes more sense to have the moon physically between Fae and 4C (one on either side) but maybe the moon travels N-S in this world, over the top of the Stormwal? And acknowledge the time of day/geography issue of Fae - I'm trying to figure out how this could work with multiple suns but I'm drawing a blank.... still its food for thought. I wonder if we all asked PR very nicely if he's supply us a map of the Fae? :)

[thistlepong]

That theory suggested the Lackless lands extended from Tinue to Imre without a lot of support, iirc.

There's also a similarly tenuous doors of stone=doors of the mind=the four plate door.

Um, oh, yah, I remember. It'd be really weird if the aforementioned doors of stone were the waystones.

Skarpi:

After the battle was finished and the enemy was set beyond the doors of stone...

Felurian:

I will not speak of that one, though he is shut beyond the doors of stone.

The implication here is that, according to Felurian, the first and greatest of the shapers, who shares a curiously similar descriptor with the enemy of Ergen, is not in Faen. He's shut out. Which would put him in the mortal.

It's been bugging me for a long time. Skarpi's word choice is odd. Felurian's isn't. If the waystones are the doors of stone, opening them lets the shaper/the enemy/Iax(?) into Faen. Or, if the difference between the words isn't important, Ergen was in Faen.

Nonetheless, my bet's on Valaritas regardless of whether Iax is in there. We could easily learn more about all three in the final book while he opens only one of them, though.

ETA: that's a pretty interesting notion, bradd. There's another Q&A interview coming out next week. I think one of the questions submitted was what shape the world of the Four Corners was.