The Wise Man's Fear VIII

[Tears of Lys]

:lol:

Yes, what you say has definitely been suggested around these parts. Those who said it have dropped out of these discussions long ago or bring it up only in a desultory fashion.

I can't say I like Kvothe - he is a pain in the ass in all the ways you so eloquently set forth. However, I am not irritated by him to such an extent that I don't find the novels highly entertaining. I will buy the next one - (and hope Kvothe lands square on his ass. :P )

[two_by_two]

Okay, here's something odd. In NOTW, the people that came to the Waystone Inn at night surprised Kvote in the middle of his story (when he was about to tell that he found the way into in the Archives from the Underthing). Yet, in WMF, he is able to stop the story before anyone was able to reah the door giving everyone time enough to compose themselves. What happened in the intervening day that allowed him to know if someone was coming to the inn? ETA: I had another thought after reading this line: Kvothe regarding Shep. I was thinking that maybe his inability to use Sympathy was maybe due to his lack of courage. If a person suffers a trauma while they were doing something, they would feel hesitation and fear at doing the same thing (like if a person barely survives after nearly drowning, they might become afraid of swimming). Maybe something like this happened to Kvothe preventing him from performing Sympathy? ETA 2: Doesn't Dal's description of names sound too familiar to the shaper's description?

None of them say no, so its not really rape, they all chase after her... And she doesnt know it will kill them (since it doesnt always kill them), there is a story about a young man going with her, and returning years later an old man. That would imply that he spent almost a lifetime with her...

I like the idea of some sort of PTSD trigger response involve sympathy. Maybe Kvothe was just paying more attention on the second day? Or, more realistically, glaring continuity error.

Came up with a random question last night which is pretty obvious, I'm surprised I haven't seen it asked before... which means it probably has been and I just haven't seen it :) If the Chandrian kill everyone who tells stories about them, why is Skarpi still alive? And we know he is because he's mentioned in the frame story...

No one under the influence of flunitrazepam says no either. Is a magical version any different? Similarly, it's not okay just because Fae have blue and orange morals. Kvothe, in fact, is pretty black and white on this. He's shown to be noble given the opportunity with Denna, and resistant even in the throes of plum bob with Fela. So, he just thinks it rocks to bang the sex fairy and since he got to she's alright, even pitiable.

It's part of a broader theme. It would have been impossible for Arliden to gather stories about them or for any to exist in the Archives if they had a 100% clearance rate. However, so far as we've seen they always leave someone alive to tell the tale. Kvothe. Nina (or Nina and Denna.) Still, it might be a clue. "Lanre is one of the Chandrian," might not be the big secret Arliden died for. On the other hand, if it is, they're already coming for Kvothe. Damn, bradd, that's ticklish. Thanks.

Skarpi is still alive because he's Aleph. The Chandrian always leave someone alive because... they want word to get out? They want to be the boogeyman, because stories are more powerful than the thing itself. Actually, the more I think about this, the more I like the idea. You leave one person alive, one child. The child remembers a vast shadow, intense terror and dread, death, pain, and the Chandrian are associated with it. That child grows up and tells stories. He doesn't remember the details, only the fear. And that fear spreads until it doesn't matter how powerful the Chandrian are. Merely the mention of their name is enough to cause old men to blanche and spill beer on the ground. They don't even have to do all that much, just stop the truth from getting out. Just make sure the story they created is stronger than the whispered stories people dare not tell in public.

As for the Felurian part... hmm. It's tricky. Okay. Here's my thought. One can't judge the actions of someone from another culture if their culture is responsible for their actions. So, like, I (as a white American living in the 21st century) cannot judge the practice of arranged marriages between thirteen-year-old girls and sixty-year-old men in medieval England to be morally reprehensible, even if I find it bizarre and disturbing. I can't say the sixty-year-old man was wrong to marry her, I can't say the parents were wrong for arranging the marriage. So I probably shouldn't judge Felurian for doing what she does. On the other hand, it is true that she is forcing men to have sex with her. Even if they "want to," they're still being forced to. I don't know if there is any way to resolve this dilemma to anyone's satisfaction, to be honest. It doesn't feel right to condemn Felurian when she's merely acting on her nature. Perhaps it would be best to say that she is an incurable nymphomaniac, and it's not her fault she can exert this influence.

I should have been more clear on Ambrose - I would expect him to use an intermediary, much like he did when blackballing Kvothe out of the inns in Imre. I don't think he would directly act.

I think if Ambrose knew about Kvothe and Denna, he would have made Denna's life utterly hell, even through an intermediate. We saw what he could do to Kvothe. Denna, as a woman without anyone looking after her, is vastly more vulnerable. Admittedly, Denna can run away - but Ambrose's arm is long, and I doubt he would hesitate to lock her up (or have her locked up, or beaten, or tortured, or raped, or killed, or all of them in varying orders). We have to remember that Ambrose can do pretty much anything, especially to a drifter woman. He's capable, and he's willing to go that far. But he doesn't, which means he has no reason to, which means he doesn't know about her and Kvothe.

1) Didn't the Citeth say she thinks she deserves it? (Or am I making that up?) 2) I have no idea (I need to reread this section.) 3) He beats women. I agree with you that the secret having been kept so long adds to its importance, but I'm not sure that it follows that it's someone we already know. It could just be a rich/powerful/important person, and the reason it is important is because of what Kvothe does when he meets him. (If he's the prince of bla-bla-bla and Kvothe kills him, the importance "requirement" is satisfied)

I think there is a quote about the Loeclos box that goes something like, "It may not have been important to begin with, but age and secrecy have made it so." So for what that's worth.

My first instinct for a culprit would be Elodin, since he above all other people would know of the danger involved and isn't above sabotaging the other masters (for example setting Hemm's rooms on fire). But by the end of WMF he's pretty chummy with Kvothe and if there were a genuine danger I would imagine he'd try to mentor Kvothe rather than undermine him. Maybe Lorren? The Cthaeh does mention that some of the masters at the university would be able to help Kvothe with his search for the Chandrian but won't. This implies that some of them at least have deeper knowledge of ancient lore, and therefore probably uses of Yllish knots, than your average scholar. just some food for thought.

I sincerely doubt it's Elodin. He only sets fire to Hemme's rooms because Hemme is quite frankly an ass, and Elodin hates him. I don't believe we're given any reason to suspect that Elodin hates the Chancellor. Also poison doesn't feel like Elodin's style. He's not that cautious, I don't think - or that nonchalant with other peoples' lives.

aimlessgun, I'm not going to address the points you bring up. Just know that they are valid to various degrees, and we are on this forum because we don't care. Or rather, we care about the flaws of this book, but only because we love it and think it is worth discussing anyways. So when you post your hate here, you're angering an entire community of people who have already thought through your rant and decided it doesn't matter. Really this applies to anyone who posts hate anywhere. Don't post it in fan communities, please. It's not necessary, it's not constructive, and it won't change anyone's mind.

[Tears of Lys]

I got the feeling that Aimlessgun was posting more about frustration with a good story marred by what he/she perceives as a GaryStu, rather than hate.

I, personally, don't care one way or the other. I've said I love the books, and I do. But I think "hate" may be too strong a word. I'll let AG defend him/herself, though.

[Sci-2]

Probably the only thing that could redeeem the trilogy in my eyes at this point is if Kote is a completely unreliable narrator and is making half of what he says up.

I do agree, that this can save the work artistically.

I think its a fun piece of experimental anti-fantasy writing, perhaps too disjointed to be a novel exactly. WMF is best described as a cool play through gaming experience, like adventure games of the 80s and early 90s.

Lots of clues and mysteries, stock characters that cannot be fleshed out due to limited memory on the PC so little to no growth. Your character is the center of everyone's universe, wherever you go the world caters to you and gives you puzzles that only you can solve. The emotional resonance lasts so long as you are in front of the screen, but quickly fades when you aren't playing.

Your character is Kvothe, and as the avatar of the player, has no real growth from the beginning to end of the game. However the game has a deeper setting and history, as a sort of window dressing, but not one you get to interact with much directly.

[aimlessgun]

My post is not a useful post anywhere, really. I could have searched up and then necro'd an anti-WMF thread to serve as an echo chamber I suppose (or quarantine room, you might say :P ), but this happened to be on page1 of the lit forums.

And yes, I paid money for book 2 because I do like so much of what is going on. Honestly as someone who's trying to write, I'm half taking notes on many of the things Rothfuss does. And old Kote should really give me a lot of hope that interesting things, and possibly even failure! are in store for young Kvothe. I was actually genuinely surprised when the two soldiers beat him up: my eyes were already skimming to the end of the fight scene, looking for the part where Kvothe finishes stylishly besting them.

WMF is best described as a cool play through gaming experience, like adventure games of the 80s and early 90s.

Interesting way of thinking about it sciborg. It does parallel some of the limitations of a lone first person PoV nicely. I'm not sure what you mean by 'anti-fantasy' though.

And I definitely stand by my thought that Kote as a horribly unreliable narrator would be all kinds of nifty.

[Nisheeth]

@aimlessgun:

A quote from WMF, regarding your original post:

We love what we love. Reason does not enter into it. In many ways, unwise love is the truest love. Anyone can love a thing because.That’s as easy as putting a penny in your pocket. But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too.

:laugh:

[two_by_two]

Well played sir. Well played.

[bradd]

two_by_two - On Skarpi.... I was (probably still am) firmly in the Skarpi=Aleph committee because it's the only thing that makes sense. In my mind I rate it almost as high as Laurian=Natalia - I'm that convinced. Now saying that, I was thinking about this the other day and I've got one small niggling point on it. I may be completely reading outside the square into something that isn't here, but PR mentioned the original version of the draft was Skarpi and Chronicler tracking down Kvothe. In a way, I think that's still the case here - Skarpi has sent Chronicler off to verify the rumour and Chronicler hit pay dirt. My issue is with their motives - Chronicler is easy, he's just after the story (or he's Manet) but if Skarpi=Aleph, why is he trying to track down Kvothe? And shouldn't he know where he is anyway?

[Nisheeth]

Here's a thought:

Every time I looked there would be another one lying in the bottom of the cage like a little cut flower

Stapes regarding the birds that were in the Maer's room.

Maybe Kvothe will die by poisoning? (comparing with Silence of 3 parts)

ETA: Most of Denna's names have been beginning from D. But when she is in Severen, she was using the name Alora. Can it have any significance? (I think I am getting a bit nit-picky here)

[Sci-2]

@aimless gun -> It's anti-fantasy in the sense that the focus of the narrative is rarely on the actually quest of finding/fighting the Chandrian, it's more about one man's life in this magical setting. One could remove the magic and still have a good bit of the story make sense.

[thistlepong]

There certainly isn't any tension left in anything. When Vashet told him that she would beat him until he left, I doubled over laughing. The idea that Kvothe would leave with anything less than the eternal friendship of the Adem, martial prowess and an awesome sword was completely ridiculous.

There were two 'stand up and cheer' moments in the book: When Devi kicked his shit in, and when the Ctaeth kicked his shit in. Though of course when he gets back from Severen Devi falls over him, "oh Kvothe, I was so worried about you". Sickening, but for beating him silly earlier in the book she still counts among my favorite characters. And I don't expect Rothfuss to use her as anything beyond windowdressing, leaving this woman of amazing talents as nothing more than an amusing moneylender for the rest of the trilogy.

Probably the only thing that could redeeem the trilogy in my eyes at this point is if Kote is a completely unreliable narrator and is making half of what he says up.

And yes, I paid money for book 2 because I do like so much of what is going on. Honestly as someone who's trying to write, I'm half taking notes on many of the things Rothfuss does. And old Kote should really give me a lot of hope that interesting things, and possibly even failure! are in store for young Kvothe. I was actually genuinely surprised when the two soldiers beat him up: my eyes were already skimming to the end of the fight scene, looking for the part where Kvothe finishes stylishly besting them.

I think I have to agree that there's not really any tension left. We know he lives through all his adventures, makes a pretty good name for himself, and retires early in Newarre.

I think your reaction sums up why there's not going to be another trilogy where restored superKvothe hunts and kills billy r the Seven. We have the end of the story and it's a shattered husk of a man hiding from the damage he's caused and the life and power he's lost still arrogantly demanding Chronicler's time to make sure his story is set down proper. He falls on his ass. What sciborg2 says about that possibly redeeming the work is pretty much what I'm hoping for. I don't wanna invest too much in that hope, though. Still, Kvothe shouldn't get back up.

Skarpi is still alive because he's Aleph.

As for the Felurian part... hmm. It's tricky. Okay. Here's my thought. One can't judge the actions of someone from another culture if their culture is responsible for their actions. So, like, I (as a white American living in the 21st century) cannot judge the practice of arranged marriages between thirteen-year-old girls and sixty-year-old men in medieval England to be morally reprehensible, even if I find it bizarre and disturbing. I can't say the sixty-year-old man was wrong to marry her, I can't say the parents were wrong for arranging the marriage. So I probably shouldn't judge Felurian for doing what she does. On the other hand, it is true that she is forcing men to have sex with her. Even if they "want to," they're still being forced to. I don't know if there is any way to resolve this dilemma to anyone's satisfaction, to be honest. It doesn't feel right to condemn Felurian when she's merely acting on her nature. Perhaps it would be best to say that she is an incurable nymphomaniac, and it's not her fault she can exert this influence.

I was probably one of the earliest folks to Skarpi/Aleph, and at this point I can't buy it. Too many people could be Aleph; including the Enemy. He doesn't have to be Aleph. It doesn't add to the story if he's Aleph. I suppose the "game" becomes interesting if he's got some motivation for sending Chronicler to him, but it sucks whatever humanity is left in the tale out. bradd covers it nicely, but I just wanted to add a voice.

Kvothe can, and does, judge folks from other cultures. If he came across a culture where sexual assault was okay, he'd make war on it. That was my point about Faen blue and orange morality versus Kvothe's black and white. We get the difference. He excuses the difference. He wouldn't for a male sex fairy.

Maybe Kvothe will die by poisoning? (comparing with Silence of 3 parts)

ETA: Most of Denna's names have been beginning from D. But when she is in Severen, she was using the name Alora. Can it have any significance? (I think I am getting a bit nit-picky here)

That'd be crazy. Bast poisons Jaime in the Suvudu match. If he hid that in plain sight I'll have a good laugh.

No one's come up with a good reason for Alora to the best of my knowledge. We don't see her range of names in Severen or anywhere else though; just Imre.

[Nisheeth]

About Denna, Indeed we don't. What I was thinking of when I came up with the name was whether it had any interesting origins (in the real world)?

[Sci-2]

So I probably shouldn't judge Felurian for doing what she does. On the other hand, it is true that she is forcing men to have sex with her. Even if they "want to," they're still being forced to. I don't know if there is any way to resolve this dilemma to anyone's satisfaction, to be honest. It doesn't feel right to condemn Felurian when she's merely acting on her nature. Perhaps it would be best to say that she is an incurable nymphomaniac, and it's not her fault she can exert this influence.

I think resolving this is incredibly easy. Kvothe only thinks rape is rape when men do it using physical force, but women who are sexual appealing and use magic aren't. If Felurian was a man, and women were drawn against their will to have sex until they died, would you feel okay about letting him go?

He should have gutted Felurian the moment he had the chance, thereby saving countless future lives.

However, we've seen Kvothe's poor moral judgement on numerous occasions, like when he doesn't think what Ambrose might do to a pregnant paramour.

Kvothe's inability to change and excusing of evils committed by those he for varied reasons sympathizes with will, we all likely suspect, lead to the climatic disasters in Doors of Stone.

I think this is where Rothfuss's talent shines through, in making Kvothe one of those charming guys who you know will fuck up at some point.

[Nisheeth]

On the topic of Kvothe killing rapists, I think that his motivation for killing those False Troupers was not that they were raping those girls, but that they were doing so in the Edema Ruh's name, thus soiling their reputation further. The fact they were raping was just something of an added bonus to justify him killing those people.

No comment on Felurian.

[thistlepong]

As long as we're looking at that specific bit, he clearly decides to kill those folks disturbingly early. What he says is that the treatment if the girls basically psyched him up for it. And the fact that they had committed an atrocity retroactively justified his.

[Sci-2]

As long as we're looking at that specific bit, he clearly decides to kill those folks disturbingly early. What he says is that the treatment if the girls basically psyched him up for it. And the fact that they had committed an atrocity retroactively justified his.

Yeah, as much I hate the childish sex antics and dubious gender politics I do think those who think Rothfuss == Kvothe are at least partially mistaken.

Kvothe is a troubled person who isn't a shining knight, a lot of his morality is about rationalizing the actions of himself those he admires.

It's funny, because I see a weird kinship between Kvothe and Lanre/Haliax. I wonder if Kvothe's great crime is a moment of sympathy for the latter upon hearing the full tale of the ancient past.

[two_by_two]

two_by_two - On Skarpi.... I was (probably still am) firmly in the Skarpi=Aleph committee because it's the only thing that makes sense. In my mind I rate it almost as high as Laurian=Natalia - I'm that convinced. Now saying that, I was thinking about this the other day and I've got one small niggling point on it. I may be completely reading outside the square into something that isn't here, but PR mentioned the original version of the draft was Skarpi and Chronicler tracking down Kvothe. In a way, I think that's still the case here - Skarpi has sent Chronicler off to verify the rumour and Chronicler hit pay dirt. My issue is with their motives - Chronicler is easy, he's just after the story (or he's Manet) but if Skarpi=Aleph, why is he trying to track down Kvothe? And shouldn't he know where he is anyway?

Skarpi is god-made-man? He is no longer omnipresent in mortal form. He may have had all the knowledge of Aleph, but now that he is made manifest, he doesn't anymore. Or he's gradually forgetting all he knew. Or both. Alternately, he has to get a proxy to do it, he can't act for himself - sort of like the Ellimist in the Animorphs books (I am clearly a 90s kid) because of the game. Ah, here's something. If Aleph is on one side of the game, who is he playing against?

[williamjm]

aimlessgun, I'm not going to address the points you bring up. Just know that they are valid to various degrees, and we are on this forum because we don't care. Or rather, we care about the flaws of this book, but only because we love it and think it is worth discussing anyways. So when you post your hate here, you're angering an entire community of people who have already thought through your rant and decided it doesn't matter. Really this applies to anyone who posts hate anywhere. Don't post it in fan communities, please. It's not necessary, it's not constructive, and it won't change anyone's mind.

To be fair to aimlessgun, while the post might not have added anything new to the discussion this isn't a Rothfuss fan forum and threads on here have always had a variety of both positive and negative opinions on whatever series we're discussing. While there have been some critical posts in the Rothfuss threads he's still got off comparatively lightly compared to some of the criticisms in the threads for Erikson's or Bakker's books, for example.

I do agree, that this can save the work artistically.

I wonder if Rothfuss does emphasise the unreliable narrator in the final book what the ratio will be between people who thinks it's an interesting narrative trick that adds new depth to the story and people who have been reading the series uncritically and might be unhappy or angry that they haven't been reading what they think they've been reading? In terms of his future commercial success it might not be the best move, which isn't to say that he shouldn't necessarily do it.

[Newsun]

In WMF, kvothe swears to Denna that he will not attempt to pursue her patron on his power, his name, and his good left hand. I am just wondering, do many people subscribe to the theory that that oath is the cause of kvothe's current state?

Another question, what do most people think dennas name will be? Is her real name a name we have already seen, or will it be something that isn't very important?

[two_by_two]

To be fair to aimlessgun, while the post might not have added anything new to the discussion this isn't a Rothfuss fan forum and threads on here have always had a variety of both positive and negative opinions on whatever series we're discussing. While there have been some critical posts in the Rothfuss threads he's still got off comparatively lightly compared to some of the criticisms in the threads for Erikson's or Bakker's books, for example.

I wonder if Rothfuss does emphasise the unreliable narrator in the final book what the ratio will be between people who thinks it's an interesting narrative trick that adds new depth to the story and people who have been reading the series uncritically and might be unhappy or angry that they haven't been reading what they think they've been reading? In terms of his future commercial success it might not be the best move, which isn't to say that he shouldn't necessarily do it.

Fair point. I just get tired of reading the same sort of angry tirade over and over.

My guess is he'll leave the reliability of Kvothe as a narrator fairly open to interpretation as usual. We've been told that all stories contain lies. There are some aspects that are frankly unrealistic (even for a fantasy novel; see: Kvothe's virginity) and some that we have to take his word on (again, the entire Felurian section, probably most things with Devi, his childhood, his interactions with Auri). But there's not any real reason to suspect that the majority of his story is not hard fact, even if he's... spiced up the details a bit.