Jaime Lannisters honor?

[Batman]

I do not think Jamie cares if people think he is honorable or not. That horse has left the barn.

He will make his own reputation/history by doing something that he thinks will be worth noting in the White Book. And I think whoever comes after Jamie will begrudgingly let what goes in the book stay in the book.

Interesting that we never got any insight into what Tywin thought of Jamie's killing Aerys?

In a feast for crows it seems lik Jaime hates that people revile him for killing Aerys.

As for Tywin "a lion doesnt concern himself with the opinions of the sheep"

[Juli Greyjoy]

I actually don't understand all the hate Jaime gets for pushing Bran. What else should he have done at this point?

("Not fucking the queen" is not an answer, he was in love with her, even before she married Robert, who abused her.)

Jaime surely didn't think much before he acted, but is was certainly clear to him what would happen if Bran didn't keep his mouth shut:

He would die, his sister and lover would die, their 3 children would die. Maybe there would even be a war against house Lannister for trying to usurp the throne of the Baratheons.

And which father wouldn't do everything to save their OWN children first, their own blood? It's only human nature. There wasn't another option at that point, except for hoping Bran would stay quiet and living in fear for the rest of their lives.

Maybe Jaime didn't love the kids as much as a father does, because he had no real relationship to them with the given circumstances, but he definitely loved Cersei and she wouldn't forgive him if any harm came to the children.

[Stormcloak]

I actually don't understand all the hate Jaime gets for pushing Bran. What else should he have done at this point?

("Not fucking the queen" is not an answer, he was in love with her, even before she married Robert, who abused her.)

Jaime surely didn't think much before he acted, but is was certainly clear to him what would happen if Bran didn't keep his mouth shut:

He would die, his sister and lover would die, their 3 children would die. Maybe there would even be a war against house Lannister for trying to usurp the throne of the Baratheons.

And which father wouldn't do everything to save their OWN children first, their own blood? It's only human nature. There wasn't another option at that point, except for hoping Bran would stay quiet and living in fear for the rest of their lives.

Maybe Jaime didn't love the kids as much as a father does, because he had no real relationship to them with the given circumstances, but he definitely loved Cersei and she wouldn't forgive him if any harm came to the children.

I'm sorry but 'not fucking the queen' is the perfect answer. It's incest/adultery, weird that I've seen a few people trying to justify it in these forums.

I'd also accept not fucking the queen where someone could see it, getting his family out of Robert's reach rather than resorting to murder or pretending it was rape so only he suffered for what he'd done.

Jaime doesn't have a shred of honour in my book, even if you forget about before he loses his hand. He's done good things in his life; stopping Aerys burning King's Landing, going back for Brienne and being the kindest Lannister to Tyrion and freeing him from the black cells but he's the same man that threw Bran out the window, lied about Tysha and had incest with the wife of the King he's sworn to serve that made a war possible. He's a lot closer to a decent human being than he was in the early books but the way he threatens Edmure was pretty much the definition of dishonourable, if he's on a redemption arc he's got a long way to go.

[Juli Greyjoy]

I'm sorry but 'not fucking the queen' is the perfect answer. It's incest, don't bother trying to justify it.

I never meant to justify the incest, just the pure action of pushing Bran at that point.

Jaime doesn't have honour, even after he loses his hand. He's a lot closer to a decent human being than he was in the early books but the way he threatens Edmure was pretty much the definition of dishonourable.

What should he have done with Edmure, in your opinion? Just let him hang and be done with it? Let him go?

He actually did what had to be done to lift the siege of Riverrun.

[Lord Cahill]

Well, if I was in Jaime's position when Bran climbed up to tower, I would've done the exact same thing... You know how children tend to blab so he could do nothing to guarantee his silence apart from killing him.. If it was my sister and I's lives on the line I would choose them instead of some random kid I met a couple of days ago... It wasn't the right thing to do but we all would've done it in my opinion, but I suppose most of us don't bang our sisters...

[Helgar]

I never meant to justify the incest, just the pure action of pushing Bran at that point.

And why exactly would you try to justify pushing Bran? It is the singular most inexcusable thing that Jaime has ever done, and the list of inexcusable things that Jaime has done is quite extensive. You can like whichever character you want, but condemning Jaime for trying to kill Bran is understandable and justified, don't you think?

To be honest you would have better luck trying to find a rationalization for the incest. Even though it's still a dodgy point, everything looks good compared to the murder of an 8-year old boy.

[Jaime's Wench]

Jaime is one of the most honourable characters in the series, in my eyes. But this is why he is the best character in the series - he divides people's opinions, most of all in the question of his honour.

We all know what comes of having too much honour (Ned Stark) and that those who have no honour at all can thrive in the world of Westeros (Petyr Bealish). This is why I love Jaime so much for choosing honour rather than a far easier but slimier path. He was the only one offered the position of Hand of the King to refuse it. He would be Protector of the Realm now if he had stayed in KL and accepted the first position. If he had taken Tywin's offer, he could be married to Margaery, and be Lord of CR -- miles from the conflict! Instead, he is heading off into a dangerous situation in order to save the life of an innocent girl. And remember, he swore no oath to protect her - only to ask those in KL to release her. Once Sansa fled KL, the situation was out of his control. Yet he persevered.

I think a lot rides on what GRRM decides to do next with his character. If he meets Stoneheart and is able to win the BwB to rally beneath him, then he might become a strong force 'for good' that could, potentially, march north and regain Winterfell for Sansa. This is only one of several roots, though.

I do believe that he needs to return to KL and meet Cersei again, if only to choke her to death. I doubt there is much 'regain of honour' in this, unless he works to putting the right person on the throne at the same time.

[Stormcloak]

I never meant to justify the incest, just the pure action of pushing Bran at that point.

Well, if I was in Jaime's position when Bran climbed up to tower, I would've done the exact same thing... You know how children tend to blab so he could do nothing to guarantee his silence apart from killing him.. If it was my sister and I's lives on the line I would choose them instead of some random kid I met a couple of days ago... It wasn't the right thing to do but we all would've done it in my opinion, but I suppose most of us don't bang our sisters...

So what was up with my ideas?

Jaime could've fled and took his family out of Robert's reach or pretended it was rape so only he took the blame for it. Both better than murdering children in my book.

Unless Jaime values his family living the high life more than letting an innocent kid live, he should've fled and got Cersei, Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella to Essos or something. Not that they'd be fleeing with no money anyways what with being Lannisters...

What should he have done with Edmure, in your opinion? Just let him hang and be done with it? Let him go?

He actually did what had to be done to lift the siege of Riverrun.

Who said being honourable was the easy way of doing things? Honourable and effective are different things.

He had the right idea with Riverrun being weaker if Edmure was in there rather than the Blackfish leading, just could've bargained with Edmure differently. Not threatening to send him his unborn child with a catapult for example.

Jaime is one of the most honourable characters in the series, in my eyes. But this is why he is the best character in the series - he divides people's opinions, most of all in the question of his honour........ I love Jaime so much for choosing honour rather than a far easier but slimier path. He was the only one offered the position of Hand of the King to refuse it. He would be Protector of the Realm now if he had stayed in KL and accepted the first position. If he had taken Tywin's offer, he could be married to Margaery, and be Lord of CR -- miles from the conflict! Instead, he is heading off into a dangerous situation in order to save the life of an innocent girl. And remember, he swore no oath to protect her - only to ask those in KL to release her. Once Sansa fled KL, the situation was out of his control. Yet he persevered.

I think you might be glossing over a few things :P

Lying about Tysha, threatening Edmure's child, throwing Bran out a window, being ready to kill Arya, incest...........

[WitchyBex]

IIRC, Bran accidentally discovers them, but isn't sure of what he is witnessing. He thinks about leaving and telling his brothers, then stops to think of what he would tell them. So at that point, he is spying. Not that excuses Jaime's actions in anyway.

Bran begins to slip after being seen by Cersei.

" 'He saw us,' the woman said shrilly. 'So he did,' the man said. Bran's fingers started to slip. He grabbed the ledge with his other hand. Fingernails dug into unyielding stone. The man reached down. 'Take my hand,' he said. 'Before you fall.'

Bran seized his arm and held on tight with all his strength. The man yanked him up to the ledge. 'What are you doing?' the woman demanded. The man ignored her. He was very strong. He stood Bran up on the sill. 'How old are you, boy?' 'Seven,' Bran said shaking with relief. His fingers had dug deep gouges in the man's forearm. He let go sheepishly.

The man looked over at the woman. 'The things I do for love,' he said WITH LOATHING. He gave Bran a shove." --Bran, AGOT

I know alot of posters seem to view Jaime's pushing Bran from the tower as a mindless, reactionary impulse. I feel that the passage above clearly shows that Jaime thought through the action before he committed it. Cersei would have been perfectly happy to let Bran continue his slip 'What are you doing?' as Jaime pulls him back up to safety. He stalls a moment while he asks Bran how old he his. He looks at Cersei and says his infamous line and pushes Bran. 'The things I do for love' said with loathing. To me this implies that he does not feel that he is doing this for himself, but because he THINKS that is what she wants. After all, Bran WAS most likely to fall to his death before Jaime pulled him to safety. Fall or push? Who would know the difference? Only the three of them, and Bran most likely would not be around to tell.

To me, this makes Jaime's act all the more reprehensible and sets him up to be the despicable human being we remember from AGOT. Totally amoral.

In a ACOK, when Catelyn talks to Jaime at Riverrun we begin to see the workings of his inner mind. He does not back away from the truth and owns up to what he has done to Bran. We begin to see how honor works in his mind--if he had wanted to finish the job of killing Bran, he would have done it himself.

By ASOS, he has 'come to rue' pushing Bran out the window. Not because of any particular moral awakening on his part, but because Cersei had given him 'endless grief' for the action. Even the initial loss of his hand does not create a moral awakening. As he ponders Joffrey's death, he regards him as a 'squirt of seed in Cersei's cunt' and knows that 'given a choice' he'd rather have his hand back than his son.

I don't see Jaime as beginning to awaken until he arrives in KL and sees his 'mirror' reacting in a less than favorable manner towards him and begins to question his identity. He then has to learn to become someone that he has never imagined being before. The White Book begins to form his new mirror. He continues to struggle with who he is throughout the next books as he learns to deal with life seperate from his twin and his sword. I think this whole 'Lancel, Kettleblack, Moonboy' obsession is part of his moral awakening. His moral compass has been destroyed. That doesn't make either twin 'more evil' or 'more good'--it just means that Cersei's a few miles ahead in having her moral compass set on the children.

In blunt, no I don't think Jaime will be remembered as honorable. He will be disparaged for his acts and always remembered as the Kingslayer. But I think the reader is meant to see him for what he really is...and we don't know what that is yet. Which is why he so compelling as a character.

edited for grammar

[Lonin]

Jaime is not a honorable man. Pushing Bran out the window, committing several acts of treason against several kings. Jaime is however, an interesting character that I have grown to like. Honorable? No.

[Lion of Judah]

Oath breaking is a stigma that follows from the 7 kingdoms to the slave cities. It's the same with being baseborn, in that no matter how much good you do you cannot change your true nature.

[Jaime's Wench]

I think you might be glossing over a few things :P

Lying about Tysha, threatening Edmure's child, throwing Bran out a window, being ready to kill Arya, incest...........

I don't excuse him lying about Tysha; that was cowardice. He was 22 when those events happened too (I think a lot of people assume he's younger ... but it's 13 + 9). He should have stood up to his father, and he didn't. It shows that he feared Tywin.

Threatening Edmure's child wasn't very nice, but it was the only way he could keep his oath to Catelyn.

It's the 'fatal flaw' that makes Jaime so interesting. Without Cersei, he'd be almost as white as his cloak. He would still have killed Aerys, but we all know that was the right thing to do. I don't try and gloss over what he's done, but I also see the honour in personal sacrifice, and he's very good at personal sacrifice.

[Batman]

("Not fucking the queen" is not an answer, he was in love with her, even before she married Robert, who abused her.)

Some miserable bitch threatens to kill your daughter and you just laugh it off? After she said that she is lucky to be alive.

[Crimsoncake78]

Even though the massive transformation he experiences I fell he is an honour less scumbag! The disrespect for other houses he shows when he has both hands , ffs he pushed a kid out a window!!!! Jamie Lannister has no honour!!!

[Nailryan]

anyone thinking either jaime wil die at the hands of lady stoneheart or the possibility of somehow he ends up marching his army on the vale??

[Ludd]

Jaime has no honour and is in fact a coward and hypocrite.

1. First he screwed his sister. EVEN AT 15 he would have known that was wrong. there is no sense that he even tried to do the right thing - I would have more sympathy if he TRIED to avoid her and was occasionally overcome with passion while drunk etc. But he just did not care. Supreme arrogance is the best you can say

2. He killed Aerys. He was perhaps partially justified BUT he also sat on the throne. Somehow I think Ned read him correctly. There was more than a tinge of ambition in his action. If Ned had not arrived before Tywin, who knows - King Jaime. He had taken no steps to save Brandon or Ricard. Cowardly. Nor had he protected Raella (Sit Barriston is guilty here too - he at least realises it)

3. After Cersai married he continued to screw her. This is an UTTERLY dishonorable act. She was Robert's wife. In a sense it is supreme fraud and grand larceny. In the era where you inherit lands based on your daddy, Jaime was committing fraud - putting a fake king on the throne. The fact that he loved her is irrelevant. Indeed he was placing her in great danger - Not the act of an honorable lover.

4. Bran. i am seriously disturbed by those of you who see he did no wrong. You are condoning murder. Hope you are never in a conflict or situation where it is your life or that of a child. You know like the lifeboat situation - you are the sort of "honorable" guys who would throw a seven year old off the boat because YOUR like is more important - There is no honor or morality. You frankly scare me.

5. Yes Jaime is showing signs of an awakening moral conscious. This is good - he may obtain redemption. I would be happy to see him go to the wall. His crimes do NOT merit death but still he is not honourable.

[David Selig]

And which father wouldn't do everything to save their OWN children first, their own blood?

Jaime for example.

"If the Father Above came down to offer him back his son or his hand, Jaime knew which he would choose. He had a second son, after all, and seed enough for many more."

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

For what my opinion is worth, I would bet that most people would kill a child to spare their own life. I know that sounds awful, and I hope I'm wrong, but I think that to be true.

The generally callous way he dealt with it is what is more wrong about that situation. But it's been a long time since then, and Jaime has become the best character for me. I think the killing Aerys totally screwed him up - because everyone wanted him dead, yet Jaime got nothing but shit for doing what everyone was praying someone would do. Not my favorite character, but the best character in terms of intrigue (IMO of course).

[The Mountain That Rhymes]

One could actually argue a case that Jaime Lannister is more 'honourable' than Ned Stark. Not in his day-to-day life, of course, but when it comes to the big, realm changing, stuff.

Why? Because Jaime was willing to become the bad guy for the sake of the greater good. His murder of Aerys got him labelled as the despised 'Kingslayer' for his entire life, yet it saved thousands of innocent men, women and children from burning horribly to death. He never sought any credit for the act, and as far as I'm aware the only person he ever told about the mad king's plan was Brienne.

Ned, by contrast, passed over the opportunity to deal with Cersei early. He passed over the opportunity to side with Renly, and he refused to follow LFs plan to bend the knee to Joff with the aim of disposing of him later. All because those actions were offensive to his personal sense of honour. Yet because of that Westeros descended into a hideously brutal civil war. Ned knew war was likely, LF flat out tells him so, yet he carries on regardless, all to safeguard his precious 'honour'. I don't actually recall him ever once giving a thought to all the common people would suffer thanks to him.

So when it came to it, Jaime was willing to sacrifice his personal honour and the respect of his peers for the greater good of the innocent, whilst Ned was not.

That's more honourable to me.

[TheButcherCrow]

One could actually argue a case that Jaime Lannister is more 'honourable' than Ned Stark. Not in his day-to-day life, of course, but when it comes to the big, realm changing, stuff.

Why? Because Jaime was willing to become the bad guy for the sake of the greater good. His murder of Aerys got him labelled as the despised 'Kingslayer' for his entire life, yet it saved thousands of innocent men, women and children from burning horribly to death. He never sought any credit for the act, and as far as I'm aware the only person he ever told about the mad king's plan was Brienne.

Ned, by contrast, passed over the opportunity to deal with Cersei early. He passed over the opportunity to side with Renly, and he refused to follow LFs plan to bend the knee to Joff with the aim of disposing of him later. All because those actions were offensive to his personal sense of honour. Yet because of that Westeros descended into a hideously brutal civil war. Ned knew war was likely, LF flat out tells him so, yet he carries on regardless, all to safeguard his precious 'honour'. I don't actually recall him ever once giving a thought to all the common people would suffer thanks to him.

So when it came to it, Jaime was willing to sacrifice his personal honour and the respect of his peers for the greater good of the innocent, whilst Ned was not.

That's more honourable to me.

I completely understand your reasoning, it is solid. It does however make an assumption about Jaime's motives for killing Aerys. It is just as possible that thoughts of the realm or the smallfolk or whatever noble reasons there may have been (& there were many) for killing Aerys never entered Jaime's head. I personally believe he killed Aerys because, at the time, it seemed like the right thing to do. I don't think it needs ideas of nobility & honour attached to it. It was, imo, a purely utilitarian action. I would love it if Jaime had always secretly been an honourable champion of the smallfolk but it doesn't jibe with the journey of the character (from having no idea what true honour is, to finding out, to then becoming a truly honourable man). Jaime committed an honourable (imo) act in killing Aerys but I do not think i t was done with honour in mind, is what I am trying to say.