[Book Spoilers] Jamie's Triumphant(?) Return

[Bastard of Boston]

Nikolaj was right about one thing. This episode definitely gave him a chance to flex his muscles a little bit after being trapped in a cage for most of the season. The real cage, too. As much as my inner sadist appreciated Jamie's cold-blooded plot to escape, I have to admit that this muddies up this minor issue of redemption. He's been kinda working towards that for awhile...kind of a big deal.

But, wait.

Yes, we all know this is a huge departure from the books. But, let's examine it in other terms as well -- what does this mean for his character arc on the show? Is it possible to bounce back? I know some people have mentioned this in the big all-encompassing episode discussion topic.

I gave it some thought. As out-of-character as it may initially seem, we are talking about a man who attempted to murder Bran. There isn't much, at this point, that Jamie wouldn't do in the name of self-preservation. Is killing Alton so that he could possibly escape that much out of character for Jamie? Do we forget about the Bran incident because Bran didn't die...even though he probably should have -- and Jamie intended for that to be the end result? At what point is the point where we say, "This is where Jamie endeavored to be better." Did it happen while in the cage? Obviously not, if we're using the show as a guide.

Should we look at Jamie differently here? Or, when you think about it, isn't Jamie the same old Jamie?

[victim]

I think the move is shocking based primarily off of what we know happens to him as book readers. I watched the episode with friends who simply hate the guy because they know him as a villain, and while it was shocking to me it seemed right up his alley for them. So that's to say the only reason why it seems out of place is because we know what comes in the future. I've heard the argument put forth that everything Jaime does is by his own little honor code - be it killing Bran to protect his sister and pseudo-children, or killing Aerys to protect the realm - and that he does this purely for himself.

I truly believe at this point of the story that Jaime is a Man Without Honor, which is not to say he does not get some later.

A great example of what I'm talking about is when Jaime turns on Brienne the first chance he gets in ASoS. Even though he swore oaths and made promises to Catelyn in the cell, they clearly meant nothing to him, even after she frees him. He didn't care about her oaths because he's developed into a man that believes they are useless. HE tried to escape from Brienne because HE wanted to be free - he fought her for himself, very much the same way he fought 'Alton' for himself.

There are two things that change his path: Brienne's influence and the loss of his sword hand; the latter of which was perfectly set up for in this episode when he says "I'm useless at everything else." Neither of these things have happened yet, so Jaime is still the dip-shit that pushed Bran out a window and stabbed Jory in the eye. We aren't meant to like him at this stage, but most of us do, because we know what he becomes.

[Currawong]

My problem with the change as I said on the main episode discussion thread, is that Jaime is still a Lannister, and still has his notion of Lannister family honour. HIs idea of that honour is not the same as Tywin's, as we see later on, but it is still therre. And killing Alton is inconsistent with Series 1 and the fight with Ned (a TV extra scene). The Jaime who refuses to finish off Ned once one of the Lannister guards wounds Ned is not going to murder a cousin in cold blood, no matter how desperate.

I can see how "kill your very distant relative in desperation" makes sense if we are only looking at a dramatic point for Series 2 and that episode, but IMHO it affects his subsequent character arc and especially the relationship with Brienne. Brienne might forgive the killing of Aerys once she hears his side of it, and she might understand (though not approve) shoving Bran out the window out of love for Cersei, but the Brienne we see in the books would never allow herself to feel any sympathy at all for a man who killed his young cousin in cold blood. Changing Jaime like that means also making a subtle but important change to the highly honourable Brienne.

ETA: It also doesn't make sense in terms of his general reputation. He hates being blamed as "Kingslayer" for killing Aerys, which he sees was an honourable act, but once word gets out that he murdered his cousin in an escape attempt, no one will want to have anything to do with him, especially his own Lannister relatives and their men. When we get to AFFC, we see Jaime leading his troops very effectively in the Riverlands, and they obviously respect him and his leadership. But once word gets around from the Stark army - and it will - that Jaime murdered his cousin, he will be a pariah even amongst Lannisters. Tywin might approve, but that would be all.

I think the scene would have been much better written by using Alton as a decoy to play dead, even if Jaime had said he had to hit him over the head to produce realistic blood. Same effect, and it would have allowed Alton to escape with Jaime and Brienne (same as Cleos Frey). Alton could be killed in some incident along the way, same as Cleos was. If they didn't want to have Alton go with them, he could have remained and been executed by Karstark in revenge. Same result - dead Alton and escaped Jaime, but Alton would have been seen to have acted honourably in assisting Jaime, and Jaime's own honour would be intact.

[SerMixalot]

someone mentioned Tywin upthread and it got me thinking about the talk between Jamie and he last season while Tywin was skinning that deer.

Tywin was all about family and legacy.

I wonder what Tywin would say about killing one's distant cousin?

[Bambi]

Tywin would personally flay 100 of his own men if he would have the chance to get back his "only worthy" son.

[Tourniquet]

From the point of a nonreader (my g/f and a few friends) of the books this was not out of character for him. They know that he is a brutally honest and malicious villain at this point. His dialogue about vows was however instrumental in his upcoming redemption and his interaction with Brienne next season will seal the deal I'm sure.

He needs to be really bad as he only gets a few scenes, he will only get a few next season and they will have to make it go much faster, it is the nature of the beast (television). They don't have the time/resources to do his arc pure justice.

[greywindsrage]

My problem with the change as I said on the main episode discussion thread, is that Jaime is still a Lannister, and still has his notion of Lannister family honour. HIs idea of that honour is not the same as Tywin's, as we see later on, but it is still therre. And killing Alton is inconsistent with Series 1 and the fight with Ned (a TV extra scene). The Jaime who refuses to finish off Ned once one of the Lannister guards wounds Ned is not going to murder a cousin in cold blood, no matter how desperate. I can see how "kill your very distant relative in desperation" makes sense if we are only looking at a dramatic point for Series 2 and that episode, but IMHO it affects his subsequent character arc and especially the relationship with Brienne. Brienne might forgive the killing of Aerys once she hears his side of it, and she might understand (though not approve) shoving Bran out the window out of love for Cersei, but the Brienne we see in the books would never allow herself to feel any sympathy at all for a man who killed his young cousin in cold blood. Changing Jaime like that means also making a subtle but important change to the highly honourable Brienne. ETA: It also doesn't make sense in terms of his general reputation. He hates being blamed as "Kingslayer" for killing Aerys, which he sees was an honourable act, but once word gets out that he murdered his cousin in an escape attempt, no one will want to have anything to do with him, especially his own Lannister relatives and their men. When we get to AFFC, we see Jaime leading his troops very effectively in the Riverlands, and they obviously respect him and his leadership. But once word gets around from the Stark army - and it will - that Jaime murdered his cousin, he will be a pariah even amongst Lannisters. Tywin might approve, but that would be all. I think the scene would have been much better written by using Alton as a decoy to play dead, even if Jaime had said he had to hit him over the head to produce realistic blood. Same effect, and it would have allowed Alton to escape with Jaime and Brienne (same as Cleos Frey). Alton could be killed in some incident along the way, same as Cleos was. If they didn't want to have Alton go with them, he could have remained and been executed by Karstark in revenge. Same result - dead Alton and escaped Jaime, but Alton would have been seen to have acted honourably in assisting Jaime, and Jaime's own honour would be intact.

The difference between Ned and Alton is that Jaime wanted to see how good a swordsman Ned really was. If you rewatch the 1st episode you will see their short interaction at Winterfell. With Alton it was simply a desperate attempt to escape. Two different people, two different situations. Plus Tywin wouldn't care as long as people fear House Lannister. Remember his speech to Jaime in the 1st season?

[Jamie Lannister]

The one thing the Bran incident had going for it is the fact that, in hindsight, Bran didn't die, and Jaime chose not to finish the job. Furthermore, Bran's gone on to become a prodigious warg capable of taking over animals/people's bodies. It's hardly an excuse, but it gives the illusion of being a less insurmountable sin.

On the other hand, I don't think Alton can bounce back from being unceremoniously bludgeoned to death by a rock. That's one fucking huge specter over TV!Jaime's head now.

[Stanmore]

The thing that really bothers me about this death is how pointless it was. I get the fact that Jaime isn't far down the road to redemption at this point, and I can see him becoming a kinslayer if the situation were desperate enough, but what I can't get over is that there's absolutely no reason Alton needs to die.

His death doesn't add anything to the escape attempt, He's not killing him for love or duty or honour. He's not killing out of anger or greed or jealousy. As far as I can see the only reason Jaime killed Alton was to provide a shock for the television viewers. There's no motive behind it and that really weakens Jaime as a character.