Patchface Prophesies

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

I just wanted to say that Patchface Prophesies is a great name for a horror movie.

:agree:

[moseisley]

He eats Shirheen and spreads Greyscale disease.

[Jared Baratheon]

not convinced he has the power of prophecy, theres definatly somthing sinister about him though, does george explain his back story? cant realy remember if its covered

[Miriel]

not convinced he has the power of prophecy, theres definatly somthing sinister about him though, does george explain his back story? cant realy remember if its covered

Stannis' parents went to the Free Cities to look for a bride for Rhaegar. While there, they found Patchface in Volantis. He was very bright and clever as per a letter they wrote. Then on their return voyage home the ship sank, drowning many on board. Patchface was plucked from the sea and few days later. He had most likely drowned and has come back in some fashion. But he is not the same bright clever fool that he was.

The Wiki summarizes it nicely:

http://awoiaf.wester...x.php/Patchface

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Maester Cressen swears that Patchface was dead when they pulled him from the drink, but when a boy pulled on his legs he sat up and spit out some water... What is dead may never die... it seems Patchface has been to the drowned god's halls, and for a couple of days at that. :eek:

[skallywag]

I'd never given a thought that he might be one of Aerion's descendants, but it makes a weird sort of sense. I can see it.But to the OP, yes, he seems to have predicted the Red Wedding and Renly's death, with the shadows.You can sort of see patterns and meanings. "Under the sea," for instance, seems to refer to death.Here's a neat interpretation: "Under the sea, the mermen (Manderlys) feast on starfish soup (starfish resemble hands — Davos) and the serving men are crabs (House Borrell of Sweetsister, who delivers Davos to White Harbor)."There are creepier ones. One says something about "marching into the sea and back out," which indicates people dying and being resurrected. "And I will lead them!" *shivers*

Not sure if someone's mentioned this already but the starfish could be the flayed man of house Bolton, which resembles a starfish.... So the manderlys will feast on/kill Bolton's and the serving men will be crabs(davos the son of a crabber?)

[Facepatch]

I have my own theory about the meanings of Patchface's prophesies, and I created an account here specifically to put it forward, see what you guys think. It's been stated here that Patchface is tied in with the Drowned God, which I absolutely agree with as he drowned and was brought back changed and whatnot. I also think that the Drowned God and the Lord of Light are enemies, with the Drowned God being the nameless "Other" to R'hllor and R'hllor being the Drowned God's Storm God, which also was put forward here, I believe, and which would also explain why Mel is so wary of PF. I also agree with the fact that PF, and therefore the DG, are tied in with the Others, which also has been stated several times.

Where I differ in the interpretations that I've read here is in the interpretations that I've seen in this prophesy in particular:

"We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh."

My interpretation of this is they will all come back as wights - an idea discussed elsewhere that makes senst to me, when he refers to sea, he is referring to death (makes sense, given what he went through), so seahorses would be undead horses, perhaps the mermaids are the Others, etc.

I don't think that "under the sea" means death, I think that it's way more literal than that. Just like the powers of the Lord of Light have awoken and strengthened since the birth of Dragons, so has the power of the DG. When PF mentions that the birds that fly under the sea have scales for feathers, I agree that he's referring to dragons, but I think that it's major foreshadowing of the reemergence of the sea dragons. And here when PF talks about riding seahorses, I think he's referring to the fact that he is going to mount one of these sea dragons in the name of the DG, and the mermaids are the Manderlys, as the sea dragons are going to rise around the North and they're going to be the ones to alert the Realm to their coming.

Now here's where I go a little crazy with my theory for the future of the series. I think that Dany is going to head East to Ashaii, as that sorceress-slave what's-her-name told her she must go East to go West. When she's there she'll accept the Lord of Light as her god. And when Victarion arrives in search of her and doesn't find her, he'll sail North towards PF because he won't want to return to the Iron Islands as a failure to Euron and out of his own shame for not having stolen Dany from him as was his plan. There he'll meet up with Patchface somehow, who will blow the dragon horn and raise a sea dragon to mount.

From that point on I think the series will take a turn towards the struggle between the forces of darkness/winter/the sea of the Drowned God (Patchface, the Others, wights, sea dragons, Iron Islanders and whoever else joins their cause) and those of the Lord of Light (Dany and her dragons, whatever Dothraki horde she gains, the people of Westeros out of fear of the Others and wights, and the people of Ashaii, along with whoever else joins up with them).

If I'm forgetting something that blows a huge hole in my theory let me know, but this is my theory and I'd like to hear what y'all think! Sorry for the long, obnoxious post.

[Black as a Plum]

As a professionally trained literary analyst, I would say that the theory put forth by Facepatch is the worthiest of attention here- as much as I want to drive away from the good/evil binary, he/she makes a very good and cohesive point in drawing the lines between the gods and their sides for the upcoming war. This is aside from Patchface's obvious qualification as an empowered drowned man (the gift of prophecy, the curse of being ignored is not a new theme in fiction). He/she also makes a reasonable prediction about the incorporation of the sea dragons and the use of the horn, which is a major cliffhanger that seems unlikely to end as neatly as Victarion's plans intend, but is a dragon rearing horn nonetheless. This sheds light on Victarion's attempts at treating with both gods as well. This theory seems to make the most sense out of a madman's nonsense, whose riddles any good reader should know never to underestimate. I fear others may be missing the importance of Patchface's words; perhaps I'm blinded by traditional literary themes, but the prophecy of the fool is always ignored by the doomed.

TLDR if you read one theory in here, read the one by Facepatch

[Gizzelle]

Patchface as Cassandra I can definitely get behind.

The Lord of the Light nonsense as the good guys, not so much.

[Facepatch]

Patchface as Cassandra I can definitely get behind.

The Lord of the Light nonsense as the good guys, not so much.

Hrm, well maybe not the "good guy" so to speak. Knowing GRRM's writing, neither of the deities will be solidly good, just two extremely powerful beings fighting for control and using the people of Westeros as pawns? I don't know, like I said that was where I left evidence behind and went with my imagination lol.

What I DO think, though, is that Patchface is going to awaken / raise the sea dragons. But hey, that's just my interpretation of his prophesies/songs along with his history. Even if I'm TOTALLY wrong, though, I think we can all agree that PF is going to be big.

[King Pellinore]

Of course, Patchface could just be freakin' crazy from drinking too much sea water and manages to spew out nonsense that could be 'seen' as prophetic.

[Punos_Rey]

^I really doubt that is all there is to Patchface, and I get nothing but a sinister air from him. I strongly believe he's not as half-witted as people thinks he is.

On a side note, I think "Under the Sea" is metaphor(stemming from his own past with being lost at sea and whatnot), what it is a metaphor I don't know, I saw one theory that posited it as a metaphor for "Beyond the Wall", but also as a metaphor for the world of the dead.

EDIT: Whatever the case is though, Patchface seems to be highly sinister(though honestly, Melisandre has no grounds to talk). He also seems to be a direct opposite of her in nearly every possible way, up to and including his visions and sayings usually revolving around water(which extinguishes flames). Also don't forget that ice(which Melisandre despises) is merely frozen water, and wasn't Patchface's body said to have been eerily cold when they found him?

As for her visions of him, the skulls surrounding his face, and the blood on his lips lead me to believe him to be at the minimum a messenger of death and other tragic events. Considering his foretelling of the Red Wedding, and possible other visions of horrible things disguised as incoherent ramblings, I could see "blood on his lips" signifying the tellings of death that come out of his mouth.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I've been intrigued by Patchface, myself. Hadn't seen this thread before, but I have discussed Patchface with others in the Heresy threads. Here's some of the background on Patchface, as I've been thinking about it (with a shout out to Forlorn Horpe for some real quality discussion!):

...Looking again through the Eastern pantheons, I did find a deity that appears to be likely source material/inspiration for Patchface: Varuna.

There appear to have been two different views of Varuna... In one (the earlier, Vedic view), Varuna appears to have been quite a competent and powerful god of the oceans and the water element; later, becoming keeper of souls of the drowned, and god of the underworld.

There is a later portrayal of this figure, however, in which he is much diminished - and interestingly, this portrayal occurs in a later Zoroastrian tradition (not a direct descendant of the Vedic). Here, Varuna is considered a demon, rather than a god, and is described as "a dim-witted, easily tricked demon of 'backwards'-ness..."

That last description sounds an awful lot like Martin's Patchface, to me.http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varuna

.

I was intrigued by this and followed the Varuna rabbit hole. He is a very powerful figure in the Vedas and specifically mentioned as a benevolent Asura, even though the Asuras are nominally evil (in Zoroastrianism, the Devas are wicked while the Asuras, e.g. Ahura Mazda, are good.) In later Hinduism he is a minor deity.

Crackpot theory: GRRM has massaged elements of Varuna into the supernatural elements of the story. Zoroastrianism, where Varuna has a presence, has a pretty clear influence on R'hllor. Varuna is a very ancient, archetypal Indo-European god (his etymological counterpart is Uranus, with whom he shares some traits.) The early Vedic Varuna has many roles which his later, reduced version loses to the other Devas or Shiva and Vishnu. Along with his twin Mitra, Varuna upholds the balance of cosmic order, Ṛta, which importantly, can also be translated as "season." Varuna is both god of the sky and the world ocean.

From Book 4, hymn 16 of the Atharva Veda:

Also whoso should creep far off beyond the sky, he should not be released from king Varuṇa; from the sky his spies go forth hither; thousand-eyed, they look over the earth. This temptation to compare him Bloodraven is almost irresistable. Bran finds Bloodraven sitting in a throne of tangled weirwood roots.

From Book I, Hymn 24 of the Rig Veda:

In baseless space King Varuna the holy

Sustains erect the summit of a great tree;

Its rays whose root is high above stream downward

Within us may they hide themselves completely.

From another translation:

Varuna the king of pure intelligence

Sits atop the tree with its roots

in his un-supported and absolute realm;

Its branches spread downwards.

Varuna sits at the roots of the World tree, which is the cosmic axis of the universe.

---

Beyond this, Varuna seems to have a couple of other connections to the lore of Westeros. For one thing, he one of the Adityas, seven celestial beings with special characteristics. They don't exactly correspond to the characteristics of the Seven of the Andals, however.

Varuna also has associations with two sea dragons. One is Makara, his mount, which he wholly controls. The other is Vritra, a powerful, malevolent dragon often described as three headed. Vritra and Varuna share a common etymological root, "to cover". Both rise from the cosmic world ocean. They share a common origin, although Varuna assists Indra in destroying Vitra.

So what does Varuna mean to the world of Westeros? He embodies a kind of pantheistic cosmic principle. From what I have read in the Heresy threads, we have become suspicious of dual opposing forces as too simplistic an idea. Varuna presents us with binary forces that are complementary rather than in conflict.

Early Vedic Varuna is omnipotent and omniscient unlike the later Vedic Varuna who plays second fiddle or the Varuna of classical Hinduism who grovels before Vishnu. Early Vedic Varuna is a cosmic overlord who controls the movement of planets, the passing of the seasons and harmonizes and gives tranquility to the universe. He is also an ethical overlord; his "spies", which are the stars, watch men "with a thousand eyes" so that Varuna can peer into the hearts and minds of men, and judge them.

As The Snowfyre Chorus mentioned, the Zoroastrian Varuna is "a dim-witted, easily tricked demon of 'backwards'-ness..." Yet the early Vedic Varuna is both God and Demon, in the Rig Veda, he is a "god, undeceivable and sovreign."

The Ironborn follow the Drowned God and fear the sky dwelling Stormgod: Varuna is both lord of the waters and the heavens. He dwells in the cosmic ocean, yet the Vedas say of him: "Ye make the lightning flash, ye send the rain; ye hide the sky in cloud and rain." Varuna is both the Drowned God and the Storm God.

The faith of R'hllor praises the Lord of Light and condemns the Great Other, god of death and coldness. Varuna is a god the night sky who is also a god of death, judging men in the afterlife. But he illuminates the world with the stars, from his name he is literally a luminous God who covers the world with light.

The High Septon says Stannis worships a red Demon. Varuna is literally a demon, the Vedas describe him as an asura, but he is also one of "the seven" and a god much concerned with upholdinh ethical princepts.

He both rides a dragon and fights a dragon.

If Varuna, or an interpretation of him exists in the pantheon of Westeros, it would be wrong to think of him as a necessarily Indian god. Like I mentioned, this is not the Varuna of classical Hinduism. This Varuna is an extremely ancient, archetypal god of the proto-Indo-European peoples. The cosmic tree he holds aloft is indistinguishable from the Irminsul and Yggdrasil of the Germanic peoples. I don't mean to suggest Varuna literally exists in Westeros. It is plain that will never see obvious manisfestations of any gods, if they even exist. It would be better to imagine him as a unitary cosmic principle, as Ṛta itself. The Storm God, the Drowned God, R'hllor and the Great Other, are all part of some unitary principle beyond human comprehension.

I've continued looking into this business of Varuna, and I think it has legs. Don't have enough time to post my full thoughts - but in brief, here are some things that strike me as noteworthy:

1. VARUNA appears to have been the chief deity of the ancient Vedic pantheon, prior to an east-west split of religious communities. After the split, Varuna maintains his great status only with the western community, eventually loses his name and assumes the identity of Ahura Mazda, the highest deity of worship in core Zoroastrianism scripture. In that sense, Varuna (1) is Ahura Mazda, (though his original name is forgotten).

In the eastern religious community (eventually, Hinduism), Varuna was eclipsed by other gods (primarily Indra, also Vishnu, Shiva, etc.), first losing his "sky-god" status, then demoted from solar to lunar/nocturnal deity, god of oceans and the underworld, and ultimately downgraded entirely to a malevolent, spiteful and unattractive demigod. Centuries later this much-diminished figure makes an appearance in Zoroastrian tradition, where he is further demonized, described as "a dim-witted, easily tricked demon of backwards-ness." In this second scenario, Varuna (2) is a lesser demon. (FWIW, the mutual demonization of daevas and asuras in later religious texts by these communities has been termed "pandemonium" by comparative mythologists.)

2. PATCHFACE, given his back story and characterization, is pretty clearly a representation of Varuna (2). And after rereading Maester Cressen's recollections of the "splendid fool" found by Lord Steffon, and the "corpse" with the "fool's face" found "washed up on the third day" below Storm's End... I believe Martin suggests in his text that these two fools are not necessarily the same person.

"The witty, clever lad that Lord Steffon had written of never reached Storm's End; the boy they found was someone else, broken in body and mind, hardly capable of speech, much less of wit. Yet his fool's face left no doubt of who he was. It was the fashion in the Free City of Volantis to tattoo the faces of slaves and servants; from neck to scalp the boy's skin had been patterned in squares of red and green motley." - ACOK, Prologue

So just as we saw happen with Dany's labor south of the Dothraki Sea (when her strong child, who was kicking to be born before she entered her tent, is discovered at birth to have been "dead for years")... it looks to me like some power used the storm and shipwreck in Shipbreaker Bay as an opportunity to pull the ol' Switcheroo. What do I mean by "the ol' switcheroo?" [ ETA: I mean that Patchface is no more Lord Steffon's "splended fool" than the monster drawn from Dany's womb was the Stallion Who Mounts the World.] Otherwise, it's just becoming my shorthand way of understanding the fact that...

3. "Only Death Can Pay For Life" (or, Magic is Returning to the World) - So, we have one situation in which we know that a mortal life was exchanged for death (or vice versa) by one of the "powers old and dark." The Mirri Maz Duur scene is rich with meaning, and should recall traditions of both kingship horse sacrifices as well as child sacrifice... I'm still not entirely sure how many lives were taken (exchanged) in that scene. Dany counts more ("The horse, my child, Quaro and Qother, Haggo and Cohollo. The price was paid and paid and paid"), but I'm inclined to count three main ones. That would include the horse, Dany's child (Rhaego), and Khal Drogo... though Drogo still lives physically after the ritual, and thus I think we have to think hard about what constitutes "life" for purposes of power. Mirri Maz Duur raises this issue explicitly after Dany regains consciousness, and in light of that conversation I think we can allow ourselves the liberty of considering a similar exchange of "life" for "death" in the case of the shipwrecked fool. After all, just before Patchface enters the scene in ACOK prologue, Maester Cressen reflects on the demeanor of his successor Maester Pylos:

"Pylos was a polite youth, no more than five-and-twenty, yet solemn as a man of sixty. If only he had more humor, more life in him; that was what was needed here. Grim places needed lightening, not solemnity, and Dragonstone was grim beyond a doubt."

If humor is a functional indicator of the presence of life (and note the wordplay allusion to *lightning*) then the fool Lord Steffon freed in Volantis has indeed lost his life, either way you look at it:

"We have found the most splendid fool," [Lord Steffon] wrote Cressen, a fortnight before he was to return home from his fruitless mission. "Only a boy, yet nimble as a monkey and witty as a dozen courtiers. He juggles and riddles and does magic, and he can sing prettily in four tongues. We have bought his freedom and hope to bring him home with us. Robert will be delighted with him, and perhaps in time he will even teach Stannis how to laugh."

"It saddened Cressen to remember that letter. No one had ever taught Stannis how to laugh, least of all the boy Patchface.

The question this raises for me is the same one raised by the events surrounding Dany's labor (Rhaego's "birth"). And that is: Where is the life that was paid for by this death? What "old power" claimed that life? Given that the child drawn from Dany's womb bore physical resemblance to a dragon... ("scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat") ... and we know that dragons are an explicitly integral part of this story, in which the last dragons died years ago ... ("the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years.") ... I think we know, generally, what "old power" received the great spirit that was prophesied in Dany's son. Though perhaps the details remain unclear.

The case of Lord Steffon's fool is less clear cut from the start, mainly because to that point in our story we have not been presented a concrete embodiment of the deity connected with his death. Or at least, we don't see this embodiment because very few of us will recognize Patchface as the lesser demon Varuna (2). As more of our story unfolds we do find a variety of references in the text to "old powers," any of which might potentially be connected to the destruction of the Windproud - but no explicit links are provided to us, and the characters themselves do not connect the dots. (FWIW - this does fit in with Martin's storytelling pattern as we've come to know it: explicit, concrete manifestations of myth from Dany's POV; more subtle allusions and a refusal to spell out the details of magic in Westeros.) So as readers, we are left to sort through the clues. And beyond the more obvious choices - the Drowned God of the Iron Islands, and his eternal foe the Storm God; perhaps the sea god from whom the Storm Kings of Storm's End claim descent - I think the identification of Patchface with Varuna mythology suggests that on some level Martin intends to connect and integrate the various deities and "old powers" of Westeros beyond the tribal loyalties of its people.

In support of this idea, I would point out that the old gods of the North, the greenseers, and the Others are all closely associated with the Haunted Forest - and the forest presents itself to Jon as "a deep green sea, storm-tossed and heaving, eternal and unknowable." There are similarities between Varuna and the figure of Odin in Norse mythology. Both are far-sighted, both associated with the noose, both gods of the underworld and the dead, both sit in the branches (or roots) of a tree. There are strong mythological connections between Varuna and Ahura Mazda (of Zoroastrianism), as well as Agni (Hindu god of fire, and acceptor of sacrifices), either of which could serve as templates for R'hllor - Melisandre's Lord of Light, Heart of Fire, God of Flame and Shadow. There are even some intriguing connections between Ahura Mazda (thus Varuna) and the Andal Seven (a subject for another post, perhaps, but I'll just say here that if you want source material for the Andal Seven, it is certainly worth reading up on the Amesha_Spenta... three male, three female, one non-gendered... and then wondering how Varuna might connect with Martin's inclusion of the Stranger).

4. More Questions - I don't have enough time to keep writing, but (as usual) this line of thought just raises more questions for me. Such as:

Who was Lord Steffon's Splendid Fool? Was he just an anonymous boy wonder (which would be fine for me), or should we expect Martin to say more about this person in future books?

What is "Life?" Mirri Maz Duur asks this question with respect to Vegetable Drogo, but if the Splendid Fool was "life-filled" enough to trigger the waking of an old power, then perhaps we have additional information toward answering this question. This could be a good approach for addressing the relevance and power of child sacrifice - Rhaego and Lord Steffon's boy fool, Craster's sons, Bran Stark, all present aspects of sacrificial child offerings for the sake of the "old powers" - not to mention the apparent willingness of Melisandre to "fire up" any child of royal blood that happens to cross her path. And I wonder particularly how this might affect our view of certain POV characters. The births of Tyrion, Daenerys and Jon were each accompanied by a mother's death. For that matter, the Stark direwolves were also born to a mother who was dying or dead. Does the fact that both Jon and Ghost were born to dying mothers signify anything about their lives or relationship? If humor and laughter are the true signs of life, then is there any added significance in the fact that Jon was born in the Tower of Joy?

Etc...

[newagezombie]

Patchface could originally be based off of Varuna, but probably only as a jumping off point. If GRRM heard the Varuna story he probably added elements of it to Patchface.

I'm not sure whether Patchface is actually an agent of the Others (or Ice, or whatever powers are behind the Others) or if it's just that so many of his predictions have to do with death; both would explain Mel's vision of him surrounded by skulls with blood on his lips. If Patchface isn't just a prophetic fool and is a pawn, it's pretty terrifying what the agenda is for whoever's controlling him. (If, somehow, he's a player, well, that's even more terrifying.)

The whole argument that Patchface is an agent of the Drowned God doesn't make too much sense to me though, because I see too many parallels between the Drowned God and R'hllor. That being said, that could make the Storm God and the Great Other very similar as well, and Patchface could definitely be an agent of the Storm God/Great Other.

The Drowned God to me seems to be another embodiment of the same deity as R'hllor (here's the wiki for the drowned god http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Drowned_God). In the description of the Drowned God, it says mentions fire an awful lot, and says that the Drowned God 'sailed the world with fire and sword.' The emphasis on fire is what makes me think the Drowned God and R'hllor represent the same thing; because of emphasis on the sea for the ironborn's way of life, an extra emphasis on the sea would be necessary for any major religion on the Iron Islands. The Storm God would then represent the Great Other. It doesn't seem like too much of a stretch that the religions would have different names for the same deities.

Patchface could then be very similar to, if not actually, a wight. Steffon's ship was caught in a massive storm that killed everyone else, and it seems possible that Patchface received some sort of prophetic gift from this, or his ability to foretell the future was corrupted by this experience. If whoever Patchface was did die during that storm, his body could have been resurrected/possessed by some ominous power. Who Patchface is only matters insomuch as to whether or not he was already prophetic, but even then that doesn't matter so much. He does have a penchant for spouting nonsense that predicts pretty ominous things, whether as a mouthpiece for a more malevolent force or not. What he will do next, if anything, is pretty important though.

Thoughts? I tried to steer away from making this a crackpot theory, but it does makea certain amount of sense that the same deities could have different names in different religions (going off of the whole Many-Faced God idea), although my interpretation of the whole R'hllor/Drowned God/Great Other/Storm God dynamic could be well off.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Patchface could originally be based off of Varuna, but probably only as a jumping off point. If GRRM heard the Varuna story he probably added elements of it to Patchface.

I'm not sure whether Patchface is actually an agent of the Others (or Ice, or whatever powers are behind the Others) or if it's just that so many of his predictions have to do with death; both would explain Mel's vision of him surrounded by skulls with blood on his lips. If Patchface isn't just a prophetic fool and is a pawn, it's pretty terrifying what the agenda is for whoever's controlling him. (If, somehow, he's a player, well, that's even more terrifying.)

The whole argument that Patchface is an agent of the Drowned God doesn't make too much sense to me though, because I see too many parallels between the Drowned God and R'hllor. That being said, that could make the Storm God and the Great Other very similar as well, and Patchface could definitely be an agent of the Storm God/Great Other.

The Drowned God to me seems to be another embodiment of the same deity as R'hllor (here's the wiki for the drowned god http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Drowned_God). In the description of the Drowned God, it says mentions fire an awful lot, and says that the Drowned God 'sailed the world with fire and sword.' The emphasis on fire is what makes me think the Drowned God and R'hllor represent the same thing; because of emphasis on the sea for the ironborn's way of life, an extra emphasis on the sea would be necessary for any major religion on the Iron Islands. The Storm God would then represent the Great Other. It doesn't seem like too much of a stretch that the religions would have different names for the same deities.

Patchface could then be very similar to, if not actually, a wight. Steffon's ship was caught in a massive storm that killed everyone else, and it seems possible that Patchface received some sort of prophetic gift from this, or his ability to foretell the future was corrupted by this experience. If whoever Patchface was did die during that storm, his body could have been resurrected/possessed by some ominous power. Who Patchface is only matters insomuch as to whether or not he was already prophetic, but even then that doesn't matter so much. He does have a penchant for spouting nonsense that predicts pretty ominous things, whether as a mouthpiece for a more malevolent force or not. What he will do next, if anything, is pretty important though.

Thoughts? I tried to steer away from making this a crackpot theory, but it does make a certain amount of sense that the same deities could have different names in different religions (going off of the whole Many-Faced God idea), although my interpretation of the whole R'hllor/Drowned God/Great Other/Storm God dynamic could be well off.

I don't think we have enough info to say whether Patchface is a pawn or a player - I think, for now, I'd simply consider him a wild card. With respect to the image of blood on his lips, I've wondered whether this might be an indicator of his connection to (or status as) one of the "powers old and dark" that seem to thirst for blood in Martin's world. Mirri Maz Duur calls forth such powers with blood magic. Brandon Stark, one with the weirwood, can "taste the blood." And the Others are said to hunt down "every creature with hot blood in its veins." ...

[McBaine]

I think that we will see Patchface command some wights at a time.

The boy washed up on the third day. Maester Cressen had come down with the rest, to help put names to the dead. When they found the fool he was naked, his skin white and wrinkled and powdered with wet sand. Cressen had thought him another corpse, but when Jommy grabbed his ankles to drag him off to the burial wagon, the boy coughed water and sat up. To his dying day, Jommy had sworn that Patchface’s flesh was clammy cold.

This could mean that Patchface is undead - not like the wights, but with most of his wits intact (well not to his described former self, bit not as mindless as the wights). Dondarrion and Lady Stoneheart came back different too. I guess this is also the case with patchface. The longer dead, the more of the personality is gone and replaced with cruelty. Lady Stoneheart was dead in the water for some time, so was Patchface.

Mel thinks him dangerous:

Melisandre’s face darkened. “That creature is dangerous. Many a time I have glimpsed him in my flames. Sometimes there are skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood.”

And his own prophesy doesn't make it better:

Patchface jumped up. “I will lead it!” His bells rang merrily. “We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.”

The skulls around him and the "we" here is curious. Into the sea and out again could mean undead. Patchface (intelligent-ish undead) could lead some wights (unintelligent undead) to an attack. The white raven calls him "Lord", maybe as in Lord (as in "leader") of the undead?

Sea-horse is another name for a ship. The Dothraki call ships wooden horses. I guess that the the prophesy could mean:

Patchface leads a small army of Wights and by ship (sea-horse) attack White Harbor - the manderly heraldry shows a merman (the mermaids blow signalhorns to sound an alarm).

Just my two cents

[newagezombie]

This is just a shot in the dark, but if Patchface's seahorse comments above do refer to ships, maybe they could be Cotter Pyke's ships drifting back south with wights aboard? I don't think wights would have the capacity to actually sail them, and I'm guessing that the Wall has some magical properties that prevent them from going beyond the Wall in any context, even by sea. Wights seem to be able to operate south of the Wall though, based on the one that attacked Mormont in AGoT.

If Patchface is a wight, by saying 'we,' he could just be referring to wights in general, if he were to lead them I think he'd need to make himself known to them or visa versa in a way that doesn't arouse too much suspicion, he can't just run away to Eastwatch or wherever the wights may be to join them. Snowfyre, I also think you're right about the wild card aspect to Patchface as well, I just sort of baselessly assumed he was a player or pawn without enough evidence. I also think you're onto something in relation to the blood on his lips.

At the moment Patchface is still fairly passive, only insinuating ominous things to come, and while Mel does think he's dangerous, she doesn't think he's dangerous enough to act on it (although that could because her visions in the flames aren't too clear). If he is a wight, McBaine's point about him having lost his personality from being dead for so long makes a lot of sense. If he was to lead them though, circumstances would have to have him go to them or them come to him.

So, for his prophecy about the seahorse, it could mean that wights (when he says we, he would be referring to wights in general, making him a wight as well, which is not certain yet) will be on ships (perhaps the remnants of Cotter Pyke's fleet that went to Hardhome that is drifting south?) and the Manderlys (mermaids, maybe a daughter or grandaughter of Wyman Manderly blows a horn in warning?) will sound the alarm. It might not foretell of a full attack, it seems like for that to happen the wall would need to come down so the Others can take part in it, but maybe wights are spotted south of the wall?

As for the 'I will lead it!' bit... If he is a wight, Patchface does seem to be a candidate to lead wights south of the Wall before the Others are capable of doing so.

[McBaine]

I agree that wights seem not be able to sail a ship in the common sense (not bright enough), but the others can command them, so to an extend it could be possible. Another posibility how wights could ride a sea horse: Patchface says "Under the waves we will ride seahorses". There is a plural, so more than one ship is ridden? Cotter Pykes fleet is a likely candidate for that. Ridden under the waves could mean that wights (who don't need to breathe) cling to the underside of these ships and so ride the sea horses under the waves. There are multiple mentions of "dead things in the water".

As for the 'I will lead it!' bit... If he is a wight, Patchface does seem to be a candidate to lead wights south of the Wall before the Others are capable of doing so.

I think so too. Even more so: Patchface is on the wall and there are currently wights held in the ice cells (Jon put them there to study them and discover there weaknesses). Patchface could let the wights out and sabotage the spells that keep the others from crossing the wall. The attack on Mormont showed that the wights are able to act in Castle Black.

I can't remember the exact number of wights in the ice cells (two comes to mind, but I'm not sure) but even Patchface and two wights could do terrible damage before they are discovered. Bloody lips and skulls around him indeed^^

[#Fire and Blood]

I think that we will see Patchface command some wights at a time.

This could mean that Patchface is undead - not like the wights, but with most of his wits intact (well not to his described former self, bit not as mindless as the wights). Dondarrion and Lady Stoneheart came back different too. I guess this is also the case with patchface. The longer dead, the more of the personality is gone and replaced with cruelty. Lady Stoneheart was dead in the water for some time, so was Patchface.

Mel thinks him dangerous:

And his own prophesy doesn't make it better:

The skulls around him and the "we" here is curious. Into the sea and out again could mean undead. Patchface (intelligent-ish undead) could lead some wights (unintelligent undead) to an attack. The white raven calls him "Lord", maybe as in Lord (as in "leader") of the undead?

Sea-horse is another name for a ship. The Dothraki call ships wooden horses. I guess that the the prophesy could mean:

Patchface leads a small army of Wights and by ship (sea-horse) attack White Harbor - the manderly heraldry shows a merman (the mermaids blow signalhorns to sound an alarm).

Just my two cents

Have you considered the Sea to mean the Wall? Seems like a very strong possibility.

[McBaine]

While the terms "under the sea", "in and out of the sea" and the sea itself could quite possibly be stand-ins and or metaphors for a lot of things, at the moment I tend to take the sea bit in patchfaces prophesy quite literally with the mentioning of dead things in the water. Into the wall and out again doesn't ring so good to me. But who knows, a more symbollical interpretation is always possible.