Patchface Prophesies

[newagezombie]

I always thought that 'Under the sea' was just the context that Patchface saw his prophecies in, like Melisandre seeing things in the fire. I thought that it actually relating to the sea every time was too literal.

[McBaine]

I always thought that 'Under the sea' was just the context that Patchface saw his prophecies in, like Melisandre seeing things in the fire. I thought that it actually relating to the sea every time was too literal.

I agree. Under normal circumstances "under the sea" would not work literally - especially because it's a part for many but not all of Patchfaces prophecys. But note, that there are many that became true and had no "under the sea" in it.

“ Fool’s blood, king’s blood, blood on the maiden’s thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye.”

This is predicting the red wedding. No "under the sea".

The shadows come to dance my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord. The shadows come to stay my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord...

This should be the assasinations via shadowcreature. No "under the sea" either.

Also it doesn't say "under the sea" in the prophecy of this theory:

“I will lead it!” His bells rang merrily. “We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.”

Its "under the waves", not under the sea. While I agree that "under the sea" should not be read literally, and is probably code for something else, in this case I take "under the waves" - especially with the seahorse=ship theory - quite literally.

[newagezombie]

I agree. Under normal circumstances "under the sea" would not work literally - especially because it's a part for many but not all of Patchfaces prophecys. But note, that there are many that became true and had no "under the sea" in it.

This is predicting the red wedding. No "under the sea".

This should be the assasinations via shadowcreature. No "under the sea" either.

Also it doesn't say "under the sea" in the prophecy of this theory:

Its "under the waves", not under the sea. While I agree that "under the sea" should not be read literally, and is probably code for something else, in this case I take "under the waves" - especially with the seahorse=ship theory - quite literally.

Okay, that makes much more sense, I'm not too familiar with all of Patchface's prophecies. Have many more of the 'Under the sea' prophecies been made or came true? In that case, 'Under the sea' could very well mean under the wall, or in the shadow of the wall, and maybe 'Under the waves' means under a storm, like the one hitting the north now?

Otherwise, taking the 'Under the sea' prophecies literally makes much more sense. I'm just curious when his other 'Under the sea' prophecies happened, if they started at the Wall then the Wall or the north could definitely play into that.

I am pretty sure that 'Under the waves' would refer either be literally under them or refer to a storm though

[McBaine]

Patchface quotes with "under the sea":

a) Under the sea, the birds have scales for feathers. I know. I know…

b ) It is always summer under the sea. The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed. I know. I know…

c) Under the sea it snows up, and the rain is dry as bone. I know. I know…

d) Under the sea, you fall up. I know. I know…

e) Here we eat fish, under the sea, the fish eat us. I know. I know…

f) Under the sea no one wears hats. I know. I know…

g) Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.

h) Under the sea the old fish eat the young fish. Up here the young fish teach the old fish.

i) Under the sea the merman feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs.

j) Under the sea the crows are white as snow.

k) Under the sea, men marry fishes.

Patchface Quotes without "under the sea":

1) Clever bird, clever man, clever clever fool…

2) The shadows come to dance my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord. The shadows come to stay my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord...

3) Fool’s blood. King’s blood, blood on the maiden’s thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye, aye, aye.

4) In the dark the dead are dancing.

5) I will lead it. We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.

Let's see:

a) Reference to dragons

g) Maybe a reference to the three colors that dragonglass candles can have?

h) Shireen teaches Davos to read?

i) The Manderlys (arms: Merman) are delivered somebody by the House Borell of Sweetsister (arms: Crabs)

j) Traitors in the Nightswatch (called crows by the wildlings)? The Assasination of Jon Snow?

"Under the sea" = "Wall" doesn't seem to be it. Certainly it is not always summer under the wall. It seems more like it refers to opposites, secret things or unusual things, but I can't make out a clear pattern.

1) Maybe Patchface wants to see that he can predict better than the white raven (BR? Greenseers?) and the priests of the red god? Or it is just a hint that he is more than it seems.

2) Assasination of Renly and the other Lord via Shadowmonsters

3) Red Wedding.

4) Reference to Wights.

5) Possibly a wight attack on White Harbor? With Patchface leading the Wights?

The "under the sea" bits seem harder to link to certain events.

No one wears hats

rain dry as bone

you fall up

all of these are hard to see through without knowing for what exactly "under the sea" is code or metaphor for.

[newagezombie]

The 'Under the sea' quotes do seem a lot harder to pin down, especially because there doesn't appear to be much consistency to them. For example, Patchface refers to fish so much it's difficult to say what he exactly means, if anything. And it's probably not the Tullys too, just based on how much he mentions it. Because Patchface refers to 'Up' or 'Up here' a fair bit whenever he talks about 'Under the sea,' he's definitely referring to a different place, time, or state of being than he and who he's with is in though.

I'd almost be tempted to say that whenever Patchface says 'Under the sea' it's just gibberish, Patchface doesn't need to make a prophecy with everything he says. And whenever he leaves out 'Under the sea,' it has foretold something. Based on his use of sea imagery when he says 'I will lead it!' and that whole bit, it may mean nothing, it may just be about how what Patchface is saying, prophecy or no, is getting much more ominous, perhaps foreshadowing much darker things to come?

If the 'I will lead it!' bit is a proper prophecy, and it's revealed what Patchface means by that in TWoW, it should at least help shed light on the other 'Under the sea' bits.

[McBaine]

I read it again and I think Patchface predicted the purple wedding in one of the "under the sea" bits.

b ) It is always summer under the sea. The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed. I know. I know…

I have no idea about the summer under the sea, but he seems to be close to Sansa's outfit at the purple wedding. I looked up what a nennymoan is - turns out it is a purple flower. And the gowns of silver seaweed...

Sansa wore a gown of silvery satin trimmed in vair, with dagged sleeves that almost touched the floor, lines up in soft purple felt. Shae had arranged her hair artfully in a delicate silver net winking with dark purple gemstones.

He seems to sea-ify (is that a word?) every prediction. Sansa is neither a merwife (mermaid) nor are there symbols (like sigils etc.) of such that link to her. This makes Patchfaces prediction even harder tinterpret...

[NotSoSilentSister]

I read it again and I think Patchface predicted the purple wedding in one of the "under the sea" bits.

I have no idea about the summer under the sea, but he seems to be close to Sansa's outfit at the purple wedding. I looked up what a nennymoan is - turns out it is a purple flower. And the gowns of silver seaweed...

Great catch!

That would be the only under-the-sea prediction that could be linked to a specific event so far... I think most of the others are more general pronouncements - the scaly fish = the existence of dragons; the crows white as snow - Jon Snow as a member of the Nightwatch. All these thins don't tell us much, apart from the fact that Jon Snow and dragons are probably going to factor heavily into the outcome of the whole affair.

There's a certain theme going through some of these - snowing up, rain dry as bones, you fall up, fish eat us - it's a reversal of the natural order of things. Par for the course with magic returning, the dead walking, etc. It's a hint that the laws of nature will no longer apply. Fire might not burn you. Ice might not freeze you. You die, but you might come back.

Men marry fishes - I think that coud be hint towards a human/non-human marriage, maybe a forshadowing of the next Night-King and his creepy consort. I generally just translate "fish" to "non-human" , although that doesn't seem to work with "the young fish teach the old fish". I don't think Patchface is terribly consistent, to be honest. But at least in this one, fish might quite clearly signify non-human in contrast to men.

No one wears hats - that's more of a statement of theme too, I think. Hats are often a class marker. In a way a crown too falls in that category. May just mean that class and lineage won't matter for the coming conflict.

[Mithras]

As I posted here, I think Patchface may be a descendant of Aerion Brightflame. The skulls and bloody lips in Mel's vision may represent an alliance between Blackfyres (the skulls kept by the GC) and Brightflames (descendants of Aerion).

[drunken giant]

I read it again and I think Patchface predicted the purple wedding in one of the "under the sea" bits.

I have no idea about the summer under the sea, but he seems to be close to Sansa's outfit at the purple wedding. I looked up what a nennymoan is - turns out it is a purple flower. And the gowns of silver seaweed...

He seems to sea-ify (is that a word?) every prediction. Sansa is neither a merwife (mermaid) nor are there symbols (like sigils etc.) of such that link to her. This makes Patchfaces prediction even harder tinterpret...

Great catch

[Mummers Dragon]

As I posted here, I think Patchface may be a descendant of Aerion Brightflame. The skulls and bloody lips in Mel's vision may represent an alliance between Blackfyres (the skulls kept by the GC) and Brightflames (descendants of Aerion).

...or it could be a cryptic reference to "The knight of skulls and kisses" Richard Lonmouth or his House. He was Rhaegar's squire and close friend, so that would make him a youngish friend. He was present at the event horizon that was the tourney at harranhal, but he has yet to make an appearance, and no indication as to his fate thus far. sure makes me wonder.

[Mithras]

...or it could be a cryptic reference to "The knight of skulls and kisses" Richard Lonmouth or his House. He was Rhaegar's squire and close friend, so that would make him a youngish friend. He was present at the event horizon that was the tourney at harranhal, but he has yet to make an appearance, and no indication as to his fate thus far. sure makes me wonder.

There is a very convincing theory that Lem Lemoncloak might be Richard Lonmouth. Besided, there is no relation between Richard Lonmouth and Patchface's backstory. Pathcface's age makes it impossible to be fathered by Richard Lonmouth.

[Sans A Stark in Winterfell]

Here are a few I've found.

"Under the sea, the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh. "

Could be: Jon dying and warging into Ghost, Night's Watch men dying and walking underwater as wights (dead things in the water), something else with Night's Watch men dying (wights -> white).

We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.

Could be: We'll die and be resurrected. Are seahorses dead horses?

"In the dark the dead are dancing."

Obvious one: Dead people are rising as wights.

"Under the sea, men marry fishes. They do, they do, they do."

Could be: I dunno, a Tully?

"Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black, Patchface sang somewhere. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.

Could be: The Doom of Valyria, or the Blackwater.

"Under the sea, the birds have scales for feathers."

Could be: Dragons.

OK I was lurking on this thread and wrote response but i accidentally deleted it :bawl:

So here goes to rewriting it

First thing first:

1) I see the main interpretation of Under the sea(UTS) here is death and I want to go down a different route. Everyone sees the sea as death becuase of what happened to patchface.

2) I don't agree with what I see a lot of people on the forum seem to think in regards to Jon in battle. I don't think he'll be in 3-4 battles like everyone thinks (the battle to save those at east watch, NW vs the Boltons, battle with the men of the NW who think he's a turncloak, and the battle vs the Others). I don't think there's enough space in 2 books for Jon's storyline to be that massive.

3) Oh and excuse me if I have a lot of typos because my keyboard is broken

Here we go!

I think UTS could mean the North (south of the wall), Winterfell (location and castle), and/or wherever the snow falls. Patchface could be singing (prophesizing) about what happens in the ice while R'hllor followers are singing about the fire (AAR). And snow means death.

We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.

We--being the survivors who make it through the fight at the Wall between turncloak crows and the wildlings/Jon's friends-- will march into the sea of snow (head south) and head back to the wall. Under the waves we will ride sea horses (the horses the Northern Men rode instead of the Stannis' warhorse because they are made for the snow, therefore they are snow horses--sea horses). Mermaids are sirens are they not? Whoever has watch that night will announce their return.

"Under the sea, the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh. "

I see this as referring to either Mance & co. being dead and white as snow at winterfell or to other members of the NW who are dead like those at the Fist.

"Under the sea snow falls up, I know, I know.

After Jon & co leave WF/south and head towards the wall I don't think they'll be cautious enough to burn the dead since they aren't beyond the Wall. Snow being the dead will fall up--rise.

"In the dark the dead are dancing."

This could be like Apple said, the dead are rising or it could be (bare with me I've been reading a lot of R+L+J threads) the dream Jon had about being in the crypts and them having a feast that he wasn't invited to.

"Under the sea, men marry fishes. They do, they do, they do."

I know this one is a stretch but here goes. There are plenty of fish in the sea, maybe fish are girls. Cat married Ned when she was young and he was maturing into a man due to the death of all of the men older than him. Bolton's bastard married Jeyne/Arya, a girl. That Karstark was trying to marry a girl.

"Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black, Patchface sang somewhere. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.

Like I said before I've got R+L=J on the mind and I like the theory that Lyanna was buried with an egg or there's an egg somewhere under WF feeding the hot springs, hence the smoke rising in bubbles. Or that the COTF gave the Starks/First Men a cache of dragon glass and its buried under ground like the ones Jon found.

"Under the sea, the birds have scales for feathers."

The Northern Men have tough skin or dragons. :dunno:

Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs, Patchface proclaimed as they went. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.

This last one is a bet stretched also but whatever, I have two theories for this. I saw a quote with mermAn and I thought of Manderly or anyone who was/is secretly on team Stark.

what do starfish do? stick to rocks and regenerate. Starfish either are a) the Freys (Casterly rock; kill a Frey and a wife has two more on the way) or b ) the lies the Freys are telling everyone. When you lie you have to lie again to keep up with you lies. The serving crab men can be a) the young men that are left over from the war (they're green boys who wear armor to appear big and bold) or b ) the Freys being softies who are hiding behind an armor of lies to protect themselves.

[Sans A Stark in Winterfell]

I read it again and I think Patchface predicted the purple wedding in one of the "under the sea" bits.

I have no idea about the summer under the sea, but he seems to be close to Sansa's outfit at the purple wedding. I looked up what a nennymoan is - turns out it is a purple flower. And the gowns of silver seaweed...

He seems to sea-ify (is that a word?) every prediction. Sansa is neither a merwife (mermaid) nor are there symbols (like sigils etc.) of such that link to her. This makes Patchfaces prediction even harder tinterpret...

:agree:

[KingOfTheAshes]

I read it again and I think Patchface predicted the purple wedding in one of the "under the sea" bits.

I have no idea about the summer under the sea, but he seems to be close to Sansa's outfit at the purple wedding. I looked up what a nennymoan is - turns out it is a purple flower. And the gowns of silver seaweed...

He seems to sea-ify (is that a word?) every prediction. Sansa is neither a merwife (mermaid) nor are there symbols (like sigils etc.) of such that link to her. This makes Patchfaces prediction even harder tinterpret...

Could it be that the actual "sea creatures" he mentions is just a sea-ified version of the real thing, mermaids are told to be very beautiful and enchanting, Sansa is supposed to be very beautiful and many men "fall" for her, which could mean that since Sansa/Alayne is a mermaid, Harry the Heir could become a merman by marrying Alayne who then outs herself as Sansa.

Should Harry rule the vale, the lords would be his servants and help retake Winterfell/The North in the name of the new lady of the vale..

Just spitballing!

[Dekar]

I've given quite a bit of thought to Patchface and I think I'm getting somewhere, but I'd need a plausability check on two things.

This is said while Melisandre burns the statues of the Sevens, before Stannis pulls out "Lightbringer".

"Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh"

At first it seems to refer to the Blackwater, except that there's nothing blue about it at all. I don't even think the word blue is used a single time in that chapter. The flames burn green and the water is black.

It could refer to Renly's death, seeing as he as blue-green eyes and black hair, and the bubbling smoke refers to the shadow-thing. However, Renly actually has green eyes in GoT and blue eyes in CoK, and only blue-green in a later book, so it seems like a genuine mistake on GRRM's part.

The flames burn green, blue and black could be related to the three slugs that Melisandre burns, each with a name. Joffrey Baratheon, Robb Stark, Balon Greyjoy. With Green, Blue and Black eyes respectively. Patchface has seen their deaths, and Melisandre will later use this vision to make Stannis believe she has more power than she really does with the little slug show.
The smoke in bubbles might refer to the way slugs burn and go up as puffs of smoke. A better explanation would be welcome, but so far it's the only green, blue and black related to Stannis in any way.

The second thing is quite simple and refers to an earlier song:

"The shadows come to dance my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord. The shadows come to stay my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord... "
He sings this as a warning to Maester Cressen. The shadows refer to Lady Melisandre. From her own words, Light and Shadow are two faces of the same coin, and R’hllor is the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Cressen and Melisandre will fight for Stannis. Cressen will try to poison her, but Melisandre will survive their little exchange, and the shadows will stay. Patchface is genuinly trying to save Cressen's life, and if this is correct, it makes Patchface both less complex and wiser than I thought.

[Skore]

Hmm, just an errant thought for those that think he has something significant to do to earn the blood on his lips.

He's been left out of the HBO show, you'd think if he had some part to play that they would have included him yes?

[Sans A Stark in Winterfell]

Hmm, just an errant thought for those that think he has something significant to do to earn the blood on his lips.

He's been left out of the HBO show, you'd think if he had some part to play that they would have included him yes?

1. He could be introduced later like the Reeds.

2. Why would they feature a character who spills future plot secrets? if he says what he says in the show then it'll be more obvious compared to the book where we simply dismissed it as annoying.

[Bivc]

[The March] Patchface jumped up. “I will lead it!” His bells rang merrily. “We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.”

Since Mel has always said how much power there is inside King's blood, there's a thought that Mel will revive Jon Snow from King's blood, and right now the only person with King's blood at the Wall is Shireen.

I believe Mel will have to kill Shireen in order to bring Jon back, when she does that Patchface will furious at everyone at the Wall. And to answer to that he will go through the Wall and into the sea, where he will find the "dead things on the water" mentioned by Cotter Pyke's letter to Jon. Patchface will come out the ocean with the wight riding their dead horses, when the men of the NW on top of the Wall puts eyes on them, they will blow their horn to announce the wights coming out of the sea with Pathface leading them.

That would also explain why Mel sees him as a dangerous creature:

[Melisandre's] “That creature is dangerous. Many a time I have glimpsed him in my flames. Sometimes there are skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood.”

I will lead it = Patchface will lead the attack upon the Wall and the NW men;

We will march into the sea and out again = Patchface will go into the sea and find the wights with their dead riding things and will then come out of the ocean with them;

Under the waves we will ride seahorses = It might indicate that they will be riding the dead horses under the water;

Mermaids will blow seashells to announce out coming = Men of the NW on top of the Wall will blow their horns to announce the others coming.

[Crimson King]

ill march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.

Marching in and out of the sea seems to be a metaphor for death and resurection. We already have quite a precedent for it in the series with the Ironborn's drowned god.

Mermaids will blow seashells to announce out coming = Men of the NW on top of the Wall will blow their horns to announce the others coming.

Good one. If the in and out of the sea is a metaphor for resurection, an alternative interpretation could be that the mermaids are the White Walkers, mermaids being to drowned men what the white walkers are to the wights.

[too fat to sit a horse]

"We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh."

Could this be a reference to what will happen to all the wildlings who die on the island that likely won't be saved now that Jon is out of commission and the Watch no longer at his command? He did warn Bowen Marsh and the rest that this is what would happen if they didn't listen to him and start caring whether or not all these people live or die.