I think Robb killed all his men...

[LordBloodraven]

Guilty of negligent homicide? Seriously? I guess all people who call their banners are guilty of negligent homicide If I follow your logic... So he must share the blame with all the lords of Westeros for the Red Wedding?

[bloodymime]

Here's the thing about both Robb and Ned. Them being honorable to their convictions costs people their lives. A great many people. Robb didn't want to dishonor Jeyne Westerling . . . well, that's great, say that to the 15,000 people not coming back North, left to rot in the mud, including yourself. Say that to all the families with the missing husbands and sons. As I said, nothing to be lauded over.

Yes, I get it. It's always Ned and Robb's honor to blame not the treachery of the Lannisters or the Freys.

To put it another way until I see Honor pick up a sword and slaughter fifteen thousand men I'm going to consider those men killed by backstabbing weasels.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

With regards to Robb marrying Jeyne, it was definitely a big mistake and a slap in the face at Walder Frey. But, honestly that was used by Lord Frey as a pretense for the Red Wedding. The North certainly doesn't feel like Robb is responsible for the killing of their loved ones. You're definitely reaching with this one.

On the contrary, I must suggest that you may be selling the effect of Robb's marriage short.

Robb needed to cross at the Twins in order to enter the Riverlands and begin his campaign. He bought that right from Lord Walder, and he bought it in blood. He offered Lord Walder the gaurantee that his grandchild would be the blood of a king.

When Robb married Jeyne, he didn't just break a deal. He had offered Walder's future grandchild his most valuable possession (his inheritance), but now someone else's gandchild would get that. And Robb had nothing of equal value to give. If I were Robb, I would not have expected Walder to remain loyal.

I don't approve of Walder's actions at the Red Wedding, or in general, what with his succession of child brides. But if he had renounced his allegiance to Robb and closed the Crossing to him, I would have thought him justified. And Robb's army may have been just as fucked, under those circumstances.

[LordBloodraven]

No, you're right. He tends to be romanticized quite a bit. The same applies to Ned. I just don't see the point in lauding them when they were both fools, no matter how honorable or good-hearted they might have been.

I think he gets a lot of uncalled for blame and condescendance from members of this forum. Ned Stark too. What is fool Faint? Someone who believes in right and wrong? Someone who's not good at scheming and backstabbing and playing the game of thrones? Someone who's naive? Where is the foolishness if you accepted to have wronged and make amends with a bannerman and compensated breaking a marriage conract (that they wanted to be implemented after the war) by having your uncle- Lord Paramount- marry instead of you? Where is the foolishness in not preventing the Red Wedding? Enough with the bloody Stark-bashing

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

On the contrary, I must suggest that you may be selling the effect of Robb's marriage short. Robb needed to cross at the Twins in order to enter the Riverlands and begin his campaign. He bought that right from Lord Walder, and he bought it in blood. He offered Lord Walder the gaurantee that his grandchild would be the blood of a king. When Robb married Jeyne, he didn't just break a deal. He had offered Walder's future grandchild his most valuable possession (his inheritance), but now someone else's gandchild would get that. And Robb had nothing of equal value to give. If I were Robb, I would not have expected Walder to remain loyal. I don't approve of Walder's actions at the Red Wedding, or in general, what with his succession of child brides. But if he had renounced his allegiance to Robb and closed the Crossing to him, I would have thought him justified. And Robb's army may have been just as fucked, under those circumstances.

I don't see anyone on here or even anyone in the book denying this or saying that the Freys weren't in the right to abandon Robb's cause, so I have no idea what it is you're arguing. When the Freys broke off from Robb, it was pretty much chalked up to, "Well yeah, that's what happens." And all of this would be fine and dandy if not for the whole mass-slaughter and breaking-sacred-guest-right thing. When people are outraged at the Freys, I'm pretty sure they're talking about THAT, not calling them out over leaving Robb's forces.

[Ser Amoc]

My thought process is: Robb made a selfish decision which created the circumstances in which the Freys turned their cloaks, and a responsible ruler should have seen that he was putting lives at risk. Therefor, he is directly responsible for the deaths of his own men.

I feel ya. Any good leader should realize he's responsible for the men he commands. I think Robb was just too green to realize his "honorable" choice of wedding Jeyne could have some serious repercussions. It's a bummer his own men turned on him as a result.

[lojzelote]

In a way, I can agree: I don´t think he could have seen that Red Wedding is coming, but he should have expected that the Freys won´t fight for him anymore which, given his position at the moment, could very easily prove to be fatal. He proposed the new marriage contract after he broke off the original one, didn´t he? What if the Freys weren´t the sly beast they are, but an "average" Westerosi noble house and just said "Thanks, but it´s not good enough" and then went over to the Lannisters? The result might have been pretty much the same.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Guilty of negligent homicide? Seriously? I guess all people who call their banners are guilty of negligent homicide If I follow your logic... So he must share the blame with all the lords of Westeros for the Red Wedding?

No, you are actually missing an important step in my logic. The one that narrows it down to people who call their banners, and then go out of their way to jeopardize the alliance that is the strategic lynchpin in their campaign in the Riverlands.

[Nymeria's]

How dare you slander the King in the North! If I were a Bolton I would show you the meaning of what our Flayed Man means! J/K.

Robb is only guilty of not paying attention to Greywind; the direwolf knew it was not safe to enter. I miss my King.

[Payme]

Actually, i lean on the side of Cat having killed all of Robb's men... If she would have drank moon tea, Robb would have never been born... Had Robb never been born, he would never have had a penis... Had he neve......

Then again, Ned's the one who planted the seed (we assume... R + C = R?)...

IT WAS NED! From beyond the grave... GRRM, you tricky bastard you...

[LordBloodraven]

No, you are actually missing an important step in my logic. The one that narrows it down to people who call their banners, and then go out of their way to jeopardize the alliance that is the strategic lynchpin in their campaign in the Riverlands.

Ok, Robb had to bargain with the Freys to have access to the Riverlands via the Twins, fair enough. But he shouldn't have to bargain for that since he was bound to relieve Lord Tully who's Lord Frey liege lord. But even with that, he took two Freys as wards, married his sister to Elmar Frey and was affianced with some Frey girl, and albeit he broke the last part of the agreement, he was still keen on having Arya marry Elmar and keep Walder and Walder as wards with what it means(comfortable positions as castellans of somewhere or lords in the repopulated gift, good marriage prospects and closeness to the King). And your reasoning made it sound as if Robb breaking the marriage contract (which is indeed a slight) was the catalyst for Walder Frey rally the fuck up at the Twins. During the war council of Riverrun just after the Whispering Wood, Stevron Frey was pushing for a peace with the Lannisters, and Aenys-Hosteen discussion with Roose Bolton show that they were on the same stance. Walder Frey broke the marriage between Arya and Elmar and accepted Robb's amends in having Edmure marry Roslin, he accepted and showed that he wanted peace with the Starks. Then he pulled the bloody RW.

[LordBloodraven]

Actually, i lean on the side of Cat having killed all of Robb's men... If she would have drank moon tea, Robb would have never been born... Had Robb never been born, he would never have had a penis... Had he neve...... Then again, Ned's the one who planted the seed (we assume... R + C = R)... IT WAS NED! From beyond the grave... GRRM, you tricky bastard you...

Nahh, it was Bran the Builder. If he didn't build that wall, Northerners might have the same culture as wildlings and would never have a hereditary king and never a teen-aged king.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

In a way, I can agree: I don´t think he could have seen that Red Wedding is coming, but he should have expected that the Freys won´t fight for him anymore which, given his position at the moment, could very easily prove to be fatal. He proposed the new marriage contract after he broke off the original one, didn´t he? What if the Freys weren´t the sly beast they are, but an "average" Westerosi noble house and just said "Thanks, but it´s not good enough" and then went over to the Lannisters? The result might have been pretty much the same.

They would have been completely justified in going over to the Lannisters publicly and fighting for them publicly, and I don't see anyone saying otherwise. Even if it resulted in the same rough outcome as the Red Wedding, it's not on the same moral and social level as the Red Wedding. What makes them treacherous snakes is that they didn't do it publicly and instead chose to murder people under the guise of guest right like cowards.

[bbqq]

Everyone has probably already argued over this point, but there are only two mentioned events of the breaking of guest right - the red wedding itself, and the rat cook, which is a very old story. It is something that is simply not done, and Robb bears no more blame for not anticipating it than he would have if Walder Frey had grown into a dragon and eaten him.

[Payme]

Nahh, it was Bran the Builder. If he didn't build that wall, Northerners might have the same culture as wildlings and would never have a hereditary king and never a teen-aged king.

Touche

[Faint]

I think he gets a lot of uncalled for blame and condescendance from members of this forum. Ned Stark too. What is fool Faint? Someone who believes in right and wrong? Someone who's not good at scheming and backstabbing and playing the game of thrones? Someone who's naive? Where is the foolishness if you accepted to have wronged and make amends with a bannerman and compensated breaking a marriage conract (that they wanted to be implemented after the war) by having your uncle- Lord Paramount- marry instead of you? Where is the foolishness in not preventing the Red Wedding? Enough with the bloody Stark-bashing

Yes, I get it. It's always Ned and Robb's honor to blame not the treachery of the Lannisters or the Freys.

To put it another way until I see Honor pick up a sword and slaughter fifteen thousand men I'm going to consider those men killed by backstabbing weasels.

Too much idealism, not enough reality. Regrettably, Robb and Ned cannot set the rules of the game they chose to play. They should know the Lannisters and Freys are treacherous. That's how they should be expected to act.

I'm reminded of the duel between Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr. As some historians have concluded, Hamilton thought the whole thing only an exercise in formality and didn't actually expect either participant to shoot to kill, so he shot his pistol into the ground. Burr being Burr, thought differently.

And Hamilton was only gambling with his own life, Ned and Robb were gambling with the lives of their family and all their men.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Too much idealism, not enough reality. Regrettably, Robb and Ned cannot set the rules of the game they chose to play. They should know the Lannisters and Freys are treacherous. That's how they should be expected to act.

So Robb should have expected Walder Frey to partake in a basically sacrilegious act of mass slaughter so goddamn awful that it disgusts even the Lannisters and their cohorts, and has only been referenced once, in a cautionary moral fable?

Far as the story's concerned, the Freys are just as cursed as kinslayers for what they did. Where's the complaining over their lack of "reality," i.e. the fact that doing what they did might just rub people the wrong way, even their allies?

[Howling Mad]

Robb is guilty of recklessness not negligence in that he could not possiblly have foreseen how marrying Jeyne would lead to the RW. Robb's neglience led directly to the Freys abandoning his cause, a foreseeable action. Robb had two choiuces to recross the Trident 1) attack the Twins or 2) make a second peace with the Lord Frey and be allowed to cross. Lord Frey accepted Robb's offer of a peaceful solution. The blame for the loss of Robb's men at the RW belongs to King Robb not because of Jeyne but because he failed to take standard precautions such as keeping known loyal men armed and on watch.

[SlayerBirden]

My thought process is: Robb made a selfish decision which created the circumstances in which the Freys turned their cloaks, and a responsible ruler should have seen that he was putting lives at risk. Therefor, he is directly responsible for the deaths of his own men.

Wow, and what should a "responsible" ruler do on a Robb's place? Not make wrong decisions? Be perfect maybe?

Every ruler is guilty in someone's death following your logic (because everyone make mistakes). So what it leaves us with - have an anarchy?

[bloodymime]

Too much idealism, not enough reality. Regrettably, Robb and Ned cannot set the rules of the game they chose to play. They should know the Lannisters and Freys are treacherous. That's how they should be expected to act. I'm reminded of the duel between Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr. As some historians have concluded, Hamilton thought the whole thing only an exercise in formality and didn't actually expect either participant to shoot to kill, so he shot his pistol into the ground. Burr being Burr, thought differently. And Hamilton was only gambling with his own life, Ned and Robb were gambling with the lives of their family and all their men.

There's also the point where this idea of reality becomes ridiculous. Neither one of them trusted the Lannisters or the Freys. Robb expects the worst and is cautious up until he is given guest right. Ned has no trust in the Lannisters and tries to prepare for the worst by getting Littlefinger, a man he also mistrusts but his own wife thinks of as a brother, to secure the city guards for him. They make mistakes yes but to act like they're these wide eyed simpletons is just goofy.