Man Theon meets with the Hooded Cloak

[Mulled Wino]

Defo an argument for Whoresbane but I am pushed towards it being Theon, possibly a relection, but certainly that is the strong impression I get when reading it so I will stick with that until more evidence appears.

I also think that what is said to 'Reek' by HM is what original Theon (pre Iron Islands) would think of him.

Except it adds absolutely nothing to the story.

[VaramyrSixchins]

None of these are evidence of any sort, they are just random happenings gathered up to attempt to prove a theory, but they hold no water, they could just as easily be anything else. Maybe he's now more comfortable showing his hand, he just showed it to a room full of people, why not some guy when he leaves the room?

Oh, gotcha. The conflicting glove scenes don't mean much to you because you've got them in the wrong order. He shows HM first, in response to the question 'How is it you still breathe?" In other words, "THIS is why I'm still alive, Mr. HM. Because Ramsay keeps me around to satisfy his sadistic urges". Theon never wonders "who is this guy?, why should I justify the fact I still live to this asshole?, what is this conversation all about?", etc He simply, voluntarily shows this guy the extent of Ramsay's power over him. He shows this stranger his own weaknesses, his own mutilation, admits basically as the heir to the Iron Islands, where dominance by might is a rule, that he is another man's stinky, reeky thrall.

By your reasoning, it shouldn't be any problem to show everybody that asks, since he's now "comfortable"", in your words. Yet when the lords and lady, who are accusing him of murder, who know full well he's been flayed, who have the power to kill him at any time, demand to see, he balks. If you can't see the illogical inconsistancy in this, I don't know what to tell you..

[VaramyrSixchins]

Less risky than trusting someone else to do it.

And perhaps he was caught at it once already, which is why the Ryswell groom ended up dead at the foot of the battlements?

Come to think of it, Yellow Dick laughed the longest and loudest at Abel's re-casting of the Dornishman's wife as a northman's daughter. Didn't the Umbers have a daughter carried off by wildlings? Hearing how much Yellow Dick enjoyed the song must have rankled.

And then there's Little Walder, scion of the Family Frey, gutted like a pig. Similar, mayhaps, to how the Umber heir - the Smalljon - was run through at the Red Wedding?

You can have your split-personality Theon - I'll admit, the idea has a certain narrative elegance. But I prefer flinty, vengeful Umbers plotting their midnight plots and

springing their traps. :devil:

Fair enough, my friend. If Theon=HM is wrong, then your scenario is the next best thing, and I'd be totally down with seeing that.

[VaramyrSixchins]

Theon knew Ramsay would punish him if he dared to change his clothes.

He meets the HM first..afterwards he's taken for questioning. So he willingly shows his hand to the HM and strangely feels no fear, but doesn't want to take his glove off in front of his inquisitors , even though it's plain some of them want to blame him for the deaths.

He doesn't even mention the HM to them , even though he wonders , himself, if the HM , the "nightwalker" , could be responsible .This suggests to me that he doesn't think it's someone they could arrest , even if he told about meeting him.

Why does he feel oddly unafraid ? ( I don't have the exact quote ).. He doesn't feel entirely sure that he's just met the killer , but wonders if he could be..Is he afraid because he thinks the HM is someone or something that anyone would be afraid of ?...like one of the Ghosts in Winterfell ? Seems plausible to me.

ETA : I think Rowan is being a bit sarcastic in the second quote...Sure , technically they weren't brothers , but , in the eyes of the North, they might as well have been. One of the spearwives might have overheard his stammering protestations before the heart tree before.

You could be right about the Ghosts in WF business. Seems plausible to me, as well.

[Mulled Wino]

Oh, gotcha. The conflicting glove scenes don't mean much to you because you've got them in the wrong order. He shows HM first, in response to the question 'How is it you still breathe?" In other words, "THIS is why I'm still alive, Mr. HM. Because Ramsay keeps me around to satisfy his sadistic urges". Theon never wonders "who is this guy?, why should I justify the fact I still live to this asshole?, what is this conversation all about?", etc He simply, voluntarily shows this guy the extent of Ramsay's power over him. He shows this stranger his own weaknesses, his own mutilation, admits basically as the heir to the Iron Islands, where dominance by might is a rule, that he is another man's stinky, reeky thrall.

By your reasoning, it shouldn't be any problem to show everybody that asks, since he's now "comfortable"", in your words. Yet when the lords and lady, who are accusing him of murder, who know full well he's been flayed, who have the power to kill him at any time, demand to see, he balks. If you can't see the illogical inconsistancy in this, I don't know what to tell you..

A lot of times people i real life dont do things that are 100% logical or consistent. Especially once they've had their identity taken from them through flaying. You dont think theon is intimidated by roose et al as opposes to a stranger.

The point is that your argument about showing his hand or not isnt anywhere near substantial evidence for HM to be Theon. First off, it cant be a reflection, next, as a hallucination, it doesnt add to the story. It never happens again. You conceed that it might be an umber, which would make a lot more sense and make the story more interesting. There's about 5 different people that make more sense than Theon as far as enhancing the overall story.

[VaramyrSixchins]

The entire point was that the scene is ambiguous by omission. I can't very well provide examples of omitted text now can I?

So what about the 2nd and 3rd times he's called kinslayer? The only way your argument makes any kind of sense is if the HM is the ONLY person who calls him kinslayer. The HM being the 1st isn't significant (unless you think Rowan and Mr. Spoiler are also figments of Theon's imagination).

Obviously, they are not figments of imagination. You know what is a figment of imagination? Fanfiction..

As noted before, Rowan calls him "kinslayer" after being accused by Theon of killing the Walder kid. It read like a defensive reaction to me. There was a denial of Theon's accusations, then a dig at him, i.e. "you're the one that kills kids, kinslayer". She later acknowledges the technicality involved and notes the Stark boys weren't his kin.

Admittedly, I forgot Mr. Spoiler uses "kinslayer" in the Gift chapter until someone pointed it out upthread. It doesn't invalidate Theon=HM, tho. The significance of "kinslayer's" first appearance is the fact it's uttered by an unidentified stranger soon after Theon's emotional reckonings in the crypts and immediately following a chat with the spearwife about the crypts. If he was so widely thought of as a kinslayer, why was he not called that long before then? After all, he'd been called turncloak a zillion times by then.

[VaramyrSixchins]

A lot of times people i real life dont do things that are 100% logical or consistent. Especially once they've had their identity taken from them through flaying. You dont think theon is intimidated by roose et al as opposes to a stranger.

The point is that your argument about showing his hand or not isnt anywhere near substantial evidence for HM to be Theon. First off, it cant be a reflection, next, as a hallucination, it doesnt add to the story. It never happens again. You conceed that it might be an umber, which would make a lot more sense and make the story more interesting. There's about 5 different people that make more sense than Theon as far as enhancing the overall story.

You're right in the sense that there are other characters that could be the HM that could advance "the battle of the ice" arc in some way, yes. I wasn't conceding that Whoresbane was more likely to be the HM, I was acknowledging hotweaselsoup's preference that it be Umber, and agreeing that that would be a satisfying resolution for me personally. If you or anyone else prefer that the HM be someone besides Theon, I certainly won't tell you you're wrong for preferring that character.

What I will argue though, is likelihood. And be it Davos, Blackfish, Benjen, Howland, or whomever, all I've ever read in their favor is unprovable, unsubstantiated, "what if" and "he could have" speculation. It's certainly your right to reject my arguments, but you can't deny they are text based.

Whoresbane I can't reject by that reasoning. He's a plausible candidate.

[Aluminum Link]

And perhaps he was caught at it once already, which is why the Ryswell groom ended up dead at the foot of the battlements?

Come to think of it, Yellow Dick laughed the longest and loudest at Abel's re-casting of the Dornishman's wife as a northman's daughter. Didn't the Umbers have a daughter carried off by wildlings? Hearing how much Yellow Dick enjoyed the song must have rankled.

Except it's pretty clear that the spearwives killed those people. Are you suggesting the Umbers were in cahoots with them?

[Mulled Wino]

Obviously, they are not figments of imagination. You know what is a figment of imagination? Fanfiction..

As noted before, Rowan calls him "kinslayer" after being accused by Theon of killing the Walder kid. It read like a defensive reaction to me. There was a denial of Theon's accusations, then a dig at him, i.e. "you're the one that kills kids, kinslayer". She later acknowledges the technicality involved and notes the Stark boys weren't his kin.

Admittedly, I forgot Mr. Spoiler uses "kinslayer" in the Gift chapter until someone pointed it out upthread. It doesn't invalidate Theon=HM, tho. The significance of "kinslayer's" first appearance is the fact it's uttered by an unidentified stranger soon after Theon's emotional reckonings in the crypts and immediately following a chat with the spearwife about the crypts. If he was so widely thought of as a kinslayer, why was he not called that long before then? After all, he'd been called turncloak a zillion times by then.

So everyone picked up "kinslayer" from theon talking to himself?

Im not trying to pile on so lets just say i respect your argument mr sixchins for sure. You certainly put a lot of thought into it and know the scenes well. Id be disappointed if this turned out to mean nothing towards the story though. If it was theon, it would just be a waste.

[hotweaselsoup]

Except it's pretty clear that the spearwives killed those people. Are you suggesting the Umbers were in cahoots with them?

I disagree that it's "pretty clear" that the spearwives killed them. I agree that it is easy to jump to that conclusion, but it is never explicitly stated. And no, I don't think the Umbers are plotting with the spearwives.

[Aluminum Link]

The significance of "kinslayer's" first appearance is the fact it's uttered by an unidentified stranger soon after Theon's emotional reckonings in the crypts and immediately following a chat with the spearwife about the crypts. If he was so widely thought of as a kinslayer, why was he not called that long before then? After all, he'd been called turncloak a zillion times by then.

I admit that it is curious that no one called him kinslayer before that. But that's all it is, a curiosity. He's called Turncloak more than kinslayer because he's obviously a turncloak. No one disputes that, not even Theon. He is not so obviously a kinslayer, however. Everyone sees him as turncloak, fewer people see him as kinslayer. That is sufficient to explain the difference.

I stand by the statement that 1st appearance doesn't matter unless it's the only appearance. If Rowan, Mr. Spoiler or anyone else had happened to call him kinslayer first your whole argument falls apart. And there's no reason why they couldn't have said it first. Unless they picked up the term from Theon himself (which seems not to be the case with Rowan and is definitely not the case for Mr. Spoiler) then the two events are independent and unconnected meaning that both characters already thought of him as a kinslayer before the HM ever called him one.

What I will argue though, is likelihood. And be it Davos, Blackfish, Benjen, Howland, or whomever, all I've ever read in their favor is unprovable, unsubstantiated, "what if" and "he could have" speculation. It's certainly your right to reject my arguments, but you can't deny they are text based.

Whoresbane I can't reject by that reasoning. He's a plausible candidate.

Of course they're unprovable. There is zero evidence that the HM is Davos, Blackfish, Benjen, Whoresbane, a Glover, Howland Reed, Hallis Mollen, whoever else you can think of, and yes, Theon himself. All we're all doing is speculating and then seeing whether the theories make sense or whether we can formulate a story that fits the vague scene we're given. Some theories have fatal flaws, some don't. Flaws or not, none of them have hard evidence to support them. The only difference between you and everyone else is that you're claiming to have actual evidence of something instead of speculating along with everyone else.

[Aluminum Link]

I disagree that it's "pretty clear" that the spearwives killed them. I agree that it is easy to jump to that conclusion, but it is never explicitly stated.

That is an argument I've had too many times to get into again. I'm sorry I mentioned it :)

[Aluminum Link]

Whoresbane I can't reject by that reasoning. He's a plausible candidate.

I still don't see how it can be anyone Theon recognizes (let alone sees every day) (1) without him thinking or mentioning it there and then and (2) without him thinking about it ever again. That seems like spectacularly bad writing to me, which I don't think GRRM is capable of.

[VaramyrSixchins]

So everyone picked up "kinslayer" from theon talking to himself?

Im not trying to pile on so lets just say i respect your argument mr sixchins for sure. You certainly put a lot of thought into it and know the scenes well. Id be disappointed if this turned out to mean nothing towards the story though. If it was theon, it would just be a waste.

No worries, you're not piling on. That's what this forum is for, back and forth debates. Thanks for the props, as well. I don't agree that it would be a waste, though. I think that HM being a hallucination by Theon actually adds a lot to the psychological themes of Theons arc because of what the dialogue between them represents. I think it adds insight to Theon's character. I agree with you that the HM could be someone that advances the battle story along, I also agree with the post upthread that stated the HM could have no significance at all. I just think there's way too much stuff pointing to Theon=HM to discount the idea. You disagree, so I'll guess we'll find out in a few years whose right.

[VaramyrSixchins]

I admit that it is curious that no one called him kinslayer before that. But that's all it is, a curiosity. He's called Turncloak more than kinslayer because he's obviously a turncloak. No one disputes that, not even Theon. He is not so obviously a kinslayer, however. Everyone sees him as turncloak, fewer people see him as kinslayer. That is sufficient to explain the difference.

I stand by the statement that 1st appearance doesn't matter unless it's the only appearance. If Rowan, Mr. Spoiler or anyone else had happened to call him kinslayer first your whole argument falls apart. And there's no reason why they couldn't have said it first. Unless they picked up the term from Theon himself (which seems not to be the case with Rowan and is definitely not the case for Mr. Spoiler) then the two events are independent and unconnected meaning that both characters already thought of him as a kinslayer before the HM ever called him one.

Of course they're unprovable. There is zero evidence that the HM is Davos, Blackfish, Benjen, Whoresbane, a Glover, Howland Reed, Hallis Mollen, whoever else you can think of, and yes, Theon himself. All we're all doing is speculating and then seeing whether the theories make sense or whether we can formulate a story that fits the vague scene we're given. Some theories have fatal flaws, some don't. Flaws or not, none of them have hard evidence to support them. The only difference between you and everyone else is that you're claiming to have actual evidence of something instead of speculating along with everyone else.

Well, then something was poorly worded on my part then, sorry for that, my friend. I'll vehemently defend the position, but I never meant to imply that Theon=HM is the 100%, indisputable truth, because obviously I can't know that. The point I was trying to make was that Theon=HM has textual clues, anecdotal evidence, and fits in with the theme of Theon's psychological transformation. One can make the argument of Theon=HM based on the actual words in the actual pages. Every other character that's most commonly cited to be the HM requires speculation that can't be supported with a textual basis, which is why I reject them.

Take Davos, for example. I know you're a proponent of Davos=HM. Davos would have to had traveled from White Harbor to Skagos, found two people and a wolf who don't want to be found, on an island that's pretty big. He then would've had to overcome any obstacles in obtaining them, convinced/forced them to come back with him, travel back to his boat, make the trip back to White Harbor, traveled then through the snow to Winterfell, somehow snuck in without being caught, come across Theon, recognize Theon despite having never met him before, behave in a way we've never seen Davos behave, and the strut away never to be mentioned again in the book.

Sorry, my friend, but this requires, to me, a far bigger suspension of disbelief than does a severely traumatized man having an hallucination.

[Mulled Wino]

No worries, you're not piling on. That's what this forum is for, back and forth debates. Thanks for the props, as well. I don't agree that it would be a waste, though. I think that HM being a hallucination by Theon actually adds a lot to the psychological themes of Theons arc because of what the dialogue between them represents. I think it adds insight to Theon's character. I agree with you that the HM could be someone that advances the battle story along, I also agree with the post upthread that stated the HM could have no significance at all. I just think there's way too much stuff pointing to Theon=HM to discount the idea. You disagree, so I'll guess we'll find out in a few years whose right.

Np. I hope few means 2, not 6!

[Aluminum Link]

If you (and other posters) remain unconvinced of Theon=HM despite all the evidence...

Well, then something was poorly worded on my part then, sorry for that, my friend. I'll vehemently defend the position, but I never meant to imply that Theon=HM is the 100%, indisputable truth, because obviously I can't know that.

The first quote above certainly helped give me that impression. Anyway, water under the bridge.

I know you're a proponent of Davos=HM.

Yes, but to be clear, I'm a fan of the theory for two reasons. (1) Because I think it plausible and ties up a lot of loose threads and (2) because I think it would be great writing. In the end (2) is what's most important to me. So if the HM turns out to be someone else and it's still well written and exciting, then I will be happy. At the moment I cannot envision any scenario in which I would be satisfied if the HM turned out to be Blackfish, Benjen, Whoresbane or Theon.

Davos would have to had traveled from White Harbor to Skagos, found two people and a wolf who don't want to be found, on an island that's pretty big. He then would've had to overcome any obstacles in obtaining them, convinced/forced them to come back with him, travel back to his boat, make the trip back to White Harbor, traveled then through the snow to Winterfell, somehow snuck in without being caught, come across Theon, recognize Theon despite having never met him before, behave in a way we've never seen Davos behave, and the strut away never to be mentioned again in the book.

As I've indicated before, I think the ~4 months between our last sighting of Davos and the encounter with the HM is sufficient time to make it plausible. There's also the possibility that his journey/mission has gone nothing like we all expect and he's not bringing good news to Manderly. That could have taken even less time, but let's set that option aside for the moment.

I see no reason why he would have to return to White Harbour. Manderly needs Rickon/Shaggy to convince everyone. When the swords start swinging the kid/dog won't do him much good in White Harbour.

As for getting into Winterfell, I just finished watching Episode 10 last night and

was very interested to hear Luwin mention the secrets ways to escape Winterfell. I don't recall this from the book. It is known that the producers of the show are in the know on many things, so I'm hopeful that this is a hint that there is a secret way in that the HM could have used (either sniffed out by the magic direwolf, already known to Rickon via his wild wanderings around the castle or found in some other way)

Bumping into Theon is not surprising giving he's out wandering all night long. People bump into each other all the time in ASOIAF. Recognizing Theon is no mean feat either. Everyone knows him. 'He looks like a limping old man' is all anyone (Manderly) would have to say.

Behaving unlike Davos. We've discussed that in depth already. I see the scene as having the potential to be read differently than you do.

I don't understand the last point about him never being mentioned again. In my mind the fact that the HM is never thought of again by Theon only strengthens the case that it is someone Theon does not know or recognize. I.e. this encounter is insignificant to Theon and put in specifically for the benefit of the reader. The fact that Theon never thinks about it again is one of the strongest points against the HM=Theon theory IMO.

But, since we're on the subject of Davos not being mentioned again, I welcome you to take a stab at explaining why Davos is not seen in the book since pg 400. I've posed the question to many people now and no one has been able to offer an alternate theory to my own.

[DeathFromBelow]

Never thought of the HM being Davos could possibly work. One possibility with Davos would be he has found Rickon/Osha with Shaggy Dog and is returning to White Harbour. Potentially with a few added guests from Skagos. Not too sure how many men that Davos will be able to bring back from Skagos but we never knew much about the Mountain Clans before Stannis recruited them. It may be possible that Davos et al. will be sailing up the White Knife. Unload at the Kingsroad and meet up with Davos. There would be no way Stannis could question Wyman's loyalty if he sees his Onion Knight at the head of a Manderly force accompanied by fighters from Skagos.

Now this theory depends on a number of things. First, Davos' mission to Skagos is successful. Second, the people of Skagos are willing to let their liege lord go away with a Southron Lord. Although, Maester Luwin did tell Osha to trust the Umbers and Manderlys. Third, the Skagosi are willing to fight alongside Stannis to restore the Starks to Winterfell. Finally, the White Knife still be accessible. We know that the ports at White Harbour never freeze as it is able to feed the North through even the most extreme winters...or so the book claims. Wyman said his men are riverfolk, not sea-farring smugglers, so they might be able to navigate the river if they have a bunch of heavy horse and Skagosi.

In one of the early Bran chapters, when he still has the ability to climb, believe it is the one where he is pushed up of the window, he explains the tunnels of Winterfell. IIRC he does not specifically state whether or not they are accessible from the outside but I believe it makes sense.

I do not think the Blackfish would be the HM as I feel his story is tied to that of Lady Stoneheart, due to Sevenstrings convo with Edmure Tully, or to the Sansa story arc as he will be able to recognise the Tully look on her instantly. That being said, Littlefinger knows this and will attempt to keep Brynden and Alayne as far from each other as possible or risk the plot being spoiled.

Thus, it leaves us with other possibilities. Definitely not Davos, he would rally with Stannis before attempting to be a spy within Winterfell because he has no business being there if Stannis thinks him dead. Why would the Hand of the King being sneaking around Winterfell without the knowledge of his King? Anyways, I am of the strong opinion that the Hooded Man is Mors Umber. Although, the fact he did not mention his size might be a tell that it is not because it is believed that the Umbers have some Giant's blood. I do believe the MO fits with what Mors has been doing outside the gates of Winterfell. He could easily get into the castle during a storm with some grappling hooks. I mean if Theon can do it, an Umber can. That's my contribution...for now.

[Aluminum Link]

Anyways, I am of the strong opinion that the Hooded Man is Mors Umber. Although, the fact he did not mention his size might be a tell that it is not because it is believed that the Umbers have some Giant's blood. I do believe the MO fits with what Mors has been doing outside the gates of Winterfell. He could easily get into the castle during a storm with some grappling hooks. I mean if Theon can do it, an Umber can. That's my contribution...for now.

But then wouldn't the perfect time to reveal that be when

Theon encounters him after leaping off the wall? Yet in his recollection of the event, there is no mention of Theon thinking 'Weird, I just saw that guy inside the castle yesterday'.

[Mulled Wino]

But then wouldn't the perfect time to reveal that be when

Theon encounters him after leaping off the wall? Yet in his recollection of the event, there is no mention of Theon thinking 'Weird, I just saw that guy inside the castle yesterday'.

So when did we have a pov that would explain that happening?

He wouldnt have to say that in the wow chapter.