Man Theon meets with the Hooded Cloak

[Babeldygob]

I think there's a strong argument to be made for Theon being the HM based just on the details in the text.

Consider:

1. a "hooded cloak" is uncharacteristically vague. Throughout the book, Theon I.D's people, especially speakers, by name (if he knows it) otherwise by sigil, association, job, etc. See pg 161, 259, 537, 538, 605, and others for examples. He never describes anyone else as simply "a man with boots", or a "lady with a hairnet", why not look for identifying signs in a confrontational stranger in the snow? Unless Theon already knows, on some level, who the stranger is.

2. Theon is himself wearing a hooded cloak.

pg 486 (giving Jeyne away at the wedding) Theon wore black and gold, his cloak pinned to his shoulder...But under the hood, his hair was white and thin...

pg 543 Lady Barbery Dustin...looked him up and down, and sniffed. "Those are the same clothes you wore for the wedding"

pg 612 He had no clean clothes, so he wriggled into the same damp rags...

This can also explain the point above. Why bother describing the clothes you've been wearing for weeks?

3. There is an instance of both location and time displacement.

pg 541 Theon begins on the battlements, analyzing Stannis's possible moves, the, by the next page, ends up at the godswood, apparently unaware as to how he got there and why he came.

pg 605. As the garrison broke its fast that morning...the talk was of liitle but the corpse. "Stannis has friends inside the castle," Theon heard a serjeant mutter. He was an old Tallhart man...Men were coming in from the cold...as the midday meal was served...

So six hours elapse in two paragraphs with no exposition. If Theon is displacing time here, it's no so impossible he's hallucinating later.

4. Fits like a glove.

pg 611 He pulled the glove from his left hand.

next page Lady Dustin: "Take off your gloves." Theon glanced up sharply. "Please, no. I...I..."

Why does Theon have no problem voluntarily removing his glove before a stranger to show his maiming (a stranger Theon speculates could be a murderer) and twistedly justify his own continued existence, yet balk at showing lords and lady that already know he's been tortured? He's showing his injuries to a facet of himself.

There's more arguments I want to make involving the HM's use of "kinslayer", but I've gotta go to work now.

Good points, fine ser. Especially the glove. As I have said, Theon is mentally unstable and it's very possible he has black-outs. He's just seeing the Theon before he murdered two boys (boys that may even be his, he remarks on how he had bedded the miller's wife a time or two, thus kinslayer).

Symptoms of Dissociative Identity Disorder:

• Current memory loss of everyday events
  
• Depersonalization
  
• Depression
  
• Derealization
  
• Disruption of identity characterized by two or more distinct personality states
  
• Distortion or loss of subjective time
  
• Flashbacks of abuse/trauma
  
• Frequent panic/anxiety attacks
  
• Identity confusion
  
• Mood swings^[19]
  
• Multiple mannerisms, attitudes and beliefs
  
• Paranoia^[21]
  
• Pseudoseizures or other conversion symptoms
  
• Psychotic-like symptoms such as hearing voices and other Schneiderian first-rank symptoms
  
• Self-alteration (feeling as if one's body belongs to someone else)
  
• Somatic symptoms that vary across identities
  
• Sudden anger without a justified cause
  
• Spontaneous trance states
  
• Suicidal and para-suicidal behaviors (such as self injury)^[19][22]
  
• Unexplainable phobias
  

Davos would never call him kinslayer. Forget it.

[Aluminum Link]

5) Davos. I agree with others that not enough time has past, and that we'll get Davos chapters about his journey to Skaagos and his time there.

What are your thoughts on why none of that journey was included in ADwD?

He wouldn't recognize Theon,

Everyone in Winterfell knows Theon to see him. The fact that the HM recognizes him says nothing about whether the HM had ever seen Theon before arriving at Winterfell.

Wyman is on a revenge mission that does not depend on the outcome of Davos' trip and that he knows will probably get him killed. The promise is the support of White Harbor's forces, not mayhem inside the wedding. Wyman is doing the latter for his own reasons; Wylis can accomplish the former.

I agree that Wyman is out for a measure of personal revenge, and that that aspect of his mission is completely independent of Davos' mission. I also agree that Wylis could declare for Stannis at a later date if needed. But, I don't think it's fair to say Wyman expects this to be a suicide mission. He's gone to quite a bit of trouble to conceal his deeds.

And besides, the bulk of his army is with him. Seems kind of silly to just roll over and give up when he's surround by a few thousand of his own men. Unless you're suggesting he's sent his whole army on a suicide mission, which would make even less sense to me.

No, at the end of ADwD Wyman is being faced with a choice. He's being asked (commanded) to send the White Harbor army against Stannis, an eventuality he knew would come before he even left White Harbor. He can either:

1) Betray Bolton and join Baratheon. But if he's willing to do this without having Rickon, why did he make the deal with Davos in the first place?

2) Stay loyal to Bolton and help destroy Stannis. Again, it makes no sense for him to do this because he would be aiding his enemy and negating the deal he made with Davos. If Manderly did that, why would Davos ever bring him Rickon later (which Wyman admits he needs to win over the North)?

The only thing that makes sense to me is that Manderly gave himself enough time so that he wouldn't have to make this lose-lose decision in the blind. He knows the outcome of Davos' mission and the reason we haven't been given more Davos POVs is that doing so would have spoiled the cliffhanger ending that GRRM decided to leave us with fairly late in the writing process.

"That is my price, Lord Davos. Smuggle me back my liege lord, and I will take Stannis Baratheon as my king."

Manderly is a smart guy and he's formulated a very elaborate and grand plan. It makes no sense to me that he wouldn't ensure the price could be paid on time.

[Ciazio]

Hi all, I'm new here but I'm a seasoned fan of GRRM ASOIAF, i buyed the first book as soon as it was translated in Italian (it was the first part of AGoT). I hope you could understand my points even if my english is not that perfect.

There's more arguments I want to make involving the HM's use of "kinslayer", but I've gotta go to work now.

I might guess your other arguments... The HM man Theon saw was himself, reflected in a mirror/glass (Glass Garden ruins?). He calls that "a man" because he is no more able to recognize himself. Think about it: Theon isn't recognized by anyone who sees him (even his sister, as we know from the gift chapter. Asha was able to recognize him after 10 years when he went to Pyke from WF, now she can't tell who he his after 4 months) why should him recognize that wreck of a man he has become?

I belive that, while beeing Reek, he wasn't that used to mirrors and obviously to water pools, since he stinked like that.

So Theon/Reek sees himself, and speaks to himself in a mirror (as pointed out, Theon's new cloth had an hood, and I belive that he used it in the middle of the snow blizzard).

And here comes the "ghosty" part. Do you remember the novel "A Christmas Carol"? When the ghost of the past come to speak with Scrooge, remembering him all of his sins? I belive that this is a sort of mention.

The man who speaks to Theon/Reek is the old Theon (the ghost of his past), the Theon he used to be before returning to Pyke. That would explain why the "old Theon" is surprised to see him still alive: he wasn't referring to his "real life" but to the fact that in this chapter he was slowly recovering his real ego, reacting to his Reek part and showing again some guts.

When he lived in WF before the war, Theon often acted as if he himself was a Stark and I really think that his most intimate desire was to be a Stark (or to become one of them, why not marrying Arya?).

I'm also ready to bet that when Bran saw Ned praying in the godswood through the eyes of the trees, his father was praying for Theon to be as a brother to Robb and the rest of the Stark children....... Think just a minute about it: GRRM is used to let us think something as if it was obvious and to reverse our hopes/desires/ecc in the following chapters.

This would explain why the old Theon, the "semi-Stark" one, calls the new Theon a kinsalyer: he betrayed his "family", shattering everything he used to love.

Moreover, I think that the younger of the two boys he hanged in WF was his own bastard son. He himself says he bedded their mother some years before (how many? 2, 3? Exactly the age this boy had, the same Rickon had when Theon conquered WF).

It's pretty logic if you think that way. Moreover, I believe that Big Walder killed Little Walder (or was it the opposite? Can't remember correctly) because he was becoming so Ramsay-like.

But here comes the crackpot theory... Theon is called "Turncloack". How can you turn your cloak to something/someone you wasn't part of? You can betray someone/something only if you used to be part of it.

Theon, desiring so much to be a Stark and being once considered by everyone in WF as a sort of Stark's relative (Ned praying for him to be like a brother to his own sons, Theon attending Luwin's lessons with Robb, ecc), is THE Stark in Winterfell. Remeber? "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell". Why not the "old" Theon? The Theon he used to be before turning his cloack to WF, the Theon who fought so valiantly with Robb and nearly duelled with Jaime Lannister.

Again, I belive that the statement "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is referred to an inhabitated Winterfell. Following this theory, when Theon escapes WF with the Poole girl, WF remains for the first time in the books inhabited AND without a "Stark".

Slightly OT: I want also to imagine what is going to happen in this ancient castle if my theory is correct. Maybe the things that live in the crypts are going to show themselves? I belive yes, and I belive that there is a SINGLE creature down there, a creature who has been visited for years by Bloodraven who used to warg Hodor (the only man able to open the crypts alone, do you remember how many Dustin's man were needed to open them? Two?). That would also explain why Bran can warg Hodor so easily (he has been warged for years by Bloodraven) and can also explain why Hodor is that afraid by the crypts and started to say "hodor" which, I think, sounds very very similar to another word...... the name of a creature seen in WF by Bran in one of his greendreams.

Hope you enjoyed my arguments :-)

Ciazio

[Prince of the North]

I think there's a strong argument to be made for Theon being the HM based just on the details in the text.

Consider:

[snipped lots of good stuff]

For some reason I couldn't "Like" this post so I wanted to reply to say that this is basically what I'm thinking. Now, I'm not completely sure on the "Theon seeing his reflection in the glass gardens" theory but I still think it's a possibility due to his wandering around and seemingly losing track of time, etc. However, I'm still convinced that the Hooded Man is Theon himself whether Theon hallucinated him or he was Theon's interpretation of his reflection. Basically, I think "Theon" and "Reek" were struggling for dominance in Theon's mind and "Theon" won :)

[Babeldygob]

-Some argument Davos is the HM-

You keep evading the fact Davos wouldn't call him kinslayer, ser. It invalidates this theory unless you can find an explanation. I understand you would like it to be Davos and that you like Davos. Me too. But it's not possible unless Davos has lost his wits.

[Aluminum Link]

You keep evading the fact Davos wouldn't call him kinslayer, ser. It invalidates this theory unless you can find an explanation. I understand you would like it to be Davos and that you like Davos. Me too. But it's not possible unless Davos has lost his wits.

I agree that one is tricky to explain, but I don't think it invalidates the theory by any means. If so, then the other theories are invalid a dozen times over as they all have much bigger holes in them than just that.

Theon is widely considered a kinslayer even though neither Bran/Rickon nor the Ironborn at Moat Cailin were his kin. Even though Davos knows that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon, it's possible he's just calling him by the name he's heard others call him by, perhaps wanting to blend in or go unnoticed. It's also possible that he's using the name to evoke a specific response from Theon and so he's using an antagonistic term to try to upset him and make him speak up. It's not until he sees Theon's hand that he starts to pity him instead of hating him.

The fact is, the scene is written in such a way that the intonation and intent of the HM is completely up in the air. There's no indication whether he addresses Theon flatly or angrily for example.

Speaking of evading things, I'm still hoping someone will provide a credible alternate explanation for why Davos was dropped at pg 400. I asked the question many times on the previous HM threads and never got an answer. Still no answer from this thread either.

[Ser Giant]

I still don't know why anyone would call him kinslayer, it is known throughout Westeros that he is only a ward of Winterfell. Wouldnt that leave out B and R's fake deaths? Wouldnt he be called a child-killer/murderer?

Could someone remind me about Moat Cailin and why that would be considered "kinslaying."

If this line of questioning is totally stupid let me know, I'm super tired right now.

[Miriel]

I still don't know why anyone would call him kinslayer, it is known throughout Westeros that he is only a ward of Winterfell. Wouldnt that leave out B and R's fake deaths? Wouldnt he be called a child-killer/murderer?

Maybe. But child killer/murderer is a lot of syllables and kinslayer rolls off the tongue easier.

Could someone remind me about Moat Cailin and why that would be considered "kinslaying."

B/c he is ironborn and so were they. Before he betrayed them to their death.

If this line of questioning is totally stupid let me know, I'm super tired right now.

It is not. It is a legitimate question. It is odd. But think of it as Theon was clearly fostered by Ned given his status as Ned's ward. There is a close relationship there. He was raised w/ Bran and Rickon, lived with them closely. To murder them is particularly horrifying b/c of that. It is a short leap from there to kinslayer in the eyes of many/most in the North.

[alienarea]

Totally crackpot: Theon is called kinslayer because he ordered the murder of Balon after he wasn't loved for taking Winterfell. And Davos found out when looking for Rickon ... :)

[Mark Antony]

Crowsfood Umber calls him "Kinslayer" in the Theon TWOW chapter iirc and he was camped out side Winterfell so i think it could've been him, I like the Theon Durden theory a lot though

[Mulled Wino]

You keep evading the fact Davos wouldn't call him kinslayer, ser. It invalidates this theory unless you can find an explanation. I understand you would like it to be Davos and that you like Davos. Me too. But it's not possible unless Davos has lost his wits.

Why couldnt Davos say something mocking Theon? Davis would know that everyone in the north (for the most part) thinks Theon killed Bran and Rickon. He could be saying what most northmen think of him. Davos doesnt have to reveal himself the second he sees theon.

I

[Mulled Wino]

I still don't know why anyone would call him kinslayer, it is known throughout Westeros that he is only a ward of Winterfell. Wouldnt that leave out B and R's fake deaths? Wouldnt he be called a child-killer/murderer?

Could someone remind me about Moat Cailin and why that would be considered "kinslaying."

If this line of questioning is totally stupid let me know, I'm super tired right now.

People believe he was like a brother to rob. They were inseparable. If im not mistaken, ser rodrick either says it or heavily implies it.

[Apoapsis]

If Davos has returned, bringing Rickon with him, wouldn't Osha have come along as well? I doubt that she would just have handed Rickon over to a total stranger and stayed behind on Skagos.

And if she has come with Davos to Winterfell, wouldn't she be the natural choice to sneak into the castle and deliver the message to Manderly that Rickon had returned? She lived there for quite some time and we already know that she knew how to sneak in and out of the place unnoticed. She would also be very much aware of the relationship between Theon and the Starks, and she would even have seen much of what he did in Winterfell first hand - definitely enough to despise him and call him a kinslayer.

The problems I can see with this theory is that Theon thought that it was a hooded man, not a hooded woman. But it was dark. Are there any descriptions of the hooded man's voice and stature?

If it is Osha and she was there to deliver the message to Manderly, I suspect that the battle of Winterfell will not be much of a battle at all - Manderly and his buddies will turn on the Bolton forces at the first opportunity and Stannis' army will just ride into Winterfell with hardly any fighting at all.

It could also be Rickon himself who has hit an early puberty.

[VaramyrSixchins]

Babeldygob, Prince in the North, Ciazio, thanks for the props.

WuTangWesteros, I think we can rule out the guy in your spoiler tag because of Theon's reaction to his eyes. The HM and Theon made eye contact briefly, hard to imagine Theon wouldn't have a reaction to them then rather than the second time he saw them.

Theon is widely considered a kinslayer even though neither Bran/Rickon nor the Ironborn at Moat Cailin were his kin.

Actually, the HM's usage is the 1st time he's called kinslayer. Later the spearwife uses the word. That's it. Twice in the whole book. More on this below.

It's not until he sees Theon's hand that he starts to pity him instead of hating him.

I disagree that the HM's tone was up in the air. He put his hand on his dagger and demanded to know how Theon still lived. That's anger. He LAUGHED when he saw the maimed fingers. That's not pity.

Regarding kinslayer. Remember, Theon didn't plan to turn his cloak from the beginning. Had Balon agreed to Robb's terms of alliance, Theon would've continued fighting for Robb. Everything he did after was for Daddy's approval. While there was obviously some resentment on Theon's part towards the Starks, it was mainly used in his own mind for justification AFTER he betrayed them. This is important because the meeting with the HM occurred after his trip to the crypts with Lady Dustin.

pg 546

"For the same reason you love them."

Theon stumbled. "Love them?...I had Bran and Rickon put to death, mounted their heads on spikes, I..."

Note that Theon isn't citing this event he knows full well never happened to keep his cover or prove his loyalty to Bolton, he's citing this as proof he never loved the Starks. But HE NEVER KILLED THE BOYS. Why cite a lie? He feels the need to protest and argue that he doesn't love the Starks because he's never dealt with the guilt he feels for betraying Robb.

"I..." Theon put a gloved hand against the pillar. "...I wanted to be one of them..."

Keep in mind that, @ this point, NO ONE SO FAR IN THE STORY HAD CALLED HIM KINSLAYER. Turncloak, Reek, less than a man, wretched, all those things yes. But never kinslayer. I don't think it's coincidence that the first time this happens is after he acknowledges his desire to be a Stark. Called kinslayer for the first time by the HM, a figment of his own imagination. Acknowledging his guilt about betraying Robb via hallucination.

pg 611 (Just prior to meeting the HM)

When he raised his head, the snowflakes brushed his cheeks like cold soft kisses. He could hear the sound of music from the hall behind him...For a moment he felt almost at peace.

He meets the HM a moment later. The HM appears at a moment when Theon feels at peace. That's no coincidence, either.

A couple more things. The spearwife calls Theon kinslayer as well. Not the same sitch tho. She calls him this after Theon accuses her of murdering the Walder kid. She responds defensively, in effect saying "Ef-you, you're the one that killed some kids.. Kids that were close to you." She later acknowledges the loophole in kinslayer.

pg 678

"Stark's boys were never brothers to you, aye. We know."

Admittedly, I had not considered the instance in WuTangWesteros's spoiler tag, but that doesn't invalidate everything else. The guy in question would have to acknowledge the technicality, too.

Also, to be clear, I don't think the HM was a reflection Theon saw on a surface, though an argument could be made for that. I think he was simply a hallucination.

[redriver]

The guy in the spoilers had a fairly noticeable facial peculiarity,iirc.

[Mulled Wino]

Crowsfood Umber calls him "Kinslayer" in the Theon TWOW chapter iirc and he was camped out side Winterfell so i think it could've been him, I like the Theon Durden theory a lot though

I like this or the theory that it was AN umber that sneaked in to winterfell to communicate with his brother.

If theon is so perceptive, why wouldnt he have described an old weak man? Being theon doesnt enhance the story at all. It means zero in the long run.

[Ser Giant]

It would definitely be a bit boring to me if it was Theon(he already has a ton of character development), but the theory has a lot of great evidence. Seems to me after reading all of this that it is the case.

One thing I was wondering, was Reek/Theon even allowed to have a dagger? Are any of the other suspected characters decribed with a dagger prior to that point?

[redriver]

It would definitely be a bit boring to me if it was Theon(he already has a ton of character development), but the theory has a lot of great evidence. Seems to me after reading all of this that it is the case.

One thing I was wondering, was Reek/Theon even allowed to have a dagger? Are any of the other suspected characters decribed with a dagger prior to that point?

Yes,Theon had a dagger,as well as all the major suspects.They used them to eat with.

[VaramyrSixchins]

I like this or the theory that it was AN umber that sneaked in to winterfell to communicate with his brother.

If theon is so perceptive, why wouldnt he have described an old weak man? Being theon doesnt enhance the story at all. It means zero in the long run.

As noted above, the eyes of the guy in the spoiler tag evoked an emotional reaction in Theon. If the guy in the spoiler tag is the HM, why wouldn't Theon have noticed the eyes and had the reaction when he first met him? The text specifically says Theon and the HM made eye contact.

And I'm not arguing that the HM hallucination was an exact likeness of Theon. It probably wasn't. There would be no reason to describe an old, weak man if the hallucination didn't appear as an old, weak man. I don't understand your question.

I disagree that it didn't enhance the story. Theon's arc was the most compelling one of the whole book for me. And the gift chapter shows there is tons of mileage left in Theon's arc. It may not forward the story in a sense of a unidentified HM ninja breaking bad in Winterfell, if that's what you mean by "enhance", but I don't think that's where it's going anyway.

[Jabronius Maximus]

I wonder if anyone else finds how the HM and Theon part ways being particularly strange:

"The man looked, and laughed. “I leave you to him, then.”

Theon trudged through the storm until his arms and legs

were..." (ADWD, A Ghost in winterfell)

Usually we see some sort of description of how the person leaves, which direction they head in, etc. but here it just goes to theon trudging through the snow, almost as if the man were never there. At this point Theon is a broken man who doesn't care much for anything, so he could easily have just ignored the man after that point. But also because Theon is a broken man, the hooded man may never have left - ie it was Theon, just looking at himself in a puddle or ice patch. The HM sounded alot more like the Theon from earlier in the series, mocking what he has become now.

I've been reading on some of these Davos=HM posts, and that also seems very likely--probably even more so than Theon Durden. It would definitely tighten up the plot and help move the story along, more than any of these other possibilities.