Payme Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Theon is definitely the Ghost in Winterfell. I don't think the Hooded Man is the Ghost in Winterfell, unless it's Theon himself. A theory I very much like. We all know Theon has developed a kind of split-personality disorder. At a lot of points he doesn't know who he is or who he's supposed to be. I don't think Theon has a split personality (i know you said "a kind of", just carrying on from your point)...To me Theon is fully aware of who he "was" and what he has become, it's just at times he battles with that.. does he just completely give up and go on as "Reek", or does he try to hold on to his past and hold out hope he'll some day be free, and Theon again? He has to tell himself he's Reek, which tells me he doesn't really believe he's Reek...I'd relate it to a prisoner who is going to be locked up for a while... Do you hold on to who you were on the outside, or become Inmate-2404 (give in, most likely to survive more easily)?There comes a point where you make that decision, and up to the point of the "hooded cloak guy", Theon still hadn't decided (IMO), and was kind of going through life and the motions with no purpose/direction (like a Ghost?)...Basically, i think he's still sane, and though he's gone through quite a bit, including the weight of what he's done himself, he seems stable enough that he wouldn't encounter "himself" as a hooded man/whatev... Of course, i could be way off... JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Payme Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 As others have said above, I've always thought The Hooded Man is Reek/Theon's own refelction in the side of the glass gardens. As Reek/Theon walks toward the glass, his reflection (i.e. The Hooded Man) would also seem to be walking toward him. The dialogue is internal. Reek/Theon is having the conversation with himself. It's indicative of "Theon" coming back to the forefront and "Reek" being pushed aside, etc. That's when Theon begins making decisions for himself again and starts thinking about defying Ramsey.That kind of makes sense, though i still lean towards the hooded man being a completely different man... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Payme Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Another thing i've thought of (not too hard, i admit): is the hooded man calling Theon "Kinslayer" in the context of "you killed your "kin", or in the context of "you killed my kin?Just and interesting thought, which would point to the Blackfish or Benjen (or who knows, another relative... Or if you lean towords the hooded man being Theon himself, Theon calling Reektheon a Kinslayer for killing his kin... WTF i'm blowing my mind here)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted May 25, 2012 Author Share Posted May 25, 2012 Well, the last time we saw him, he was bound for "a place where men break their fast on human flesh"...hahaha........so maybe rickon's still there in the lowest crypt level that no one ever goes into Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Giant Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I'm 100% certain that it is Werewolf Robb.Nah, but I hope it's not Theon himself, this is a great opportunity for grrm to bring back any long missing character. Davos, Blackfish, Sandor(if he barrows LF's magic carpet from the TV series). Anything works for me.Maybe the GreatJon finally managed to rape and pillage his way to freedom? Or Dagmer finally decided to leave Torrhen's square? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I don't think Theon has a split personality (i know you said "a kind of", just carrying on from your point)... To me Theon is fully aware of who he "was" and what he has become, it's just at times he battles with that.. does he just completely give up and go on as "Reek", or does he try to hold on to his past and hold out hope he'll some day be free, and Theon again? He has to tell himself he's Reek, which tells me he doesn't really believe he's Reek... I'd relate it to a prisoner who is going to be locked up for a while... Do you hold on to who you were on the outside, or become Inmate-2404 (give in, most likely to survive more easily)? There comes a point where you make that decision, and up to the point of the "hooded cloak guy", Theon still hadn't decided (IMO), and was kind of going through life and the motions with no purpose/direction (like a Ghost?)... Basically, i think he's still sane, and though he's gone through quite a bit, including the weight of what he's done himself, he seems stable enough that he wouldn't encounter "himself" as a hooded man/whatev... Of course, i could be way off... JMO Very interesting to think about. However, I don't think it's really all that much of a stretch to think Theon could have a split personality, of sorts, and that those personalities would be struggling for dominance so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Martin Stark Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I dont buy into the Hooded Man being split personality of Theon at all. Makes no sense to me and doesnt seem like something GRRM would do. I not sure who it was. My best guess woule be the Blackfish..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I dont buy into the Hooded Man being split personality of Theon at all. Makes no sense to me and doesnt seem like something GRRM would do. I not sure who it was. My best guess woule be the Blackfish..... See, now that's weird. It's what I thought was going on the very first time I read that chapter and I think it's exactly the kind of thing Martin would do. I don't have the books electronically but perhaps someone who does could post that bit. And not just the conversation with the Hooded Man but a bit leading up to it, as well. It's been awhile since I read it but I thought Reek/Theon was described as wearing a cloak with the hood up while walking toward the glass gardens. Then he sees a hooded man walking toward him, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FateLess Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Ok that some of you think Blackfish would be fine with Uncat and would leave a pregnant Jeyne Westerling with her and a bunch of outlaws astounds me. Why won't Blackfish be okay with Catelyn returning and taking revenge on the Freys? He is no high septon. Also, like one outlaw is another man's hero. BwB are outlaws to the Iron Throne and the Lannister camp, they are no outlaws to the small folk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Payme Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 See, now that's weird. It's what I thought was going on the very first time I read that chapter and I think it's exactly the kind of thing Martin would do. I don't have the books electronically but perhaps someone who does could post that bit. And not just the conversation with the Hooded Man but a bit leading up to it, as well. It's been awhile since I read it but I thought Reek/Theon was described as wearing a cloak with the hood up while walking toward the glass gardens. Then he sees a hooded man walking toward him, etc.I just reread that part for you from when he leaves the hall, sees the hooded man, walks up to the battlements and back to his chambers...no mention of the glass gardens.. only mention of his clothes is when he returns to his chambers.. he stripped out of his wet clothes, was summoned and wiggled back into the same damp rags...Also, it says there were walls of snow chest high... To me it suggests the glass of the glass gardens maybe would have been covered enough that Theon wouldn't have been able to see it when "the man put a hand on his dagger." I only say that because with such heavy snow, i doubt they'd dig out the snow for any other purpose than going to doors and steps that led places, not just to a glass panel... It's still possible he could have seen his face...Hope that helps...very interesting theory for sure, and possible seeing who our author is ha... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous Ali Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Howland Reed might be there for Jon. Jon had a strange dream about the crypts. Might be he's there to tell about Jon's parentage or whatever he saw at the tower of joy, after he's recovered/reborn. And one of the green dreamers told Howland that he'll come to the crypts. Though it's kind of a long shot, but I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodraven's Eye Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I just reread that part for you from when he leaves the hall, sees the hooded man, walks up to the battlements and back to his chambers...no mention of the glass gardens.. only mention of his clothes is when he returns to his chambers.. he stripped out of his wet clothes, was summoned and wiggled back into the same damp rags... Also, it says there were walls of snow chest high... To me it suggests the glass of the glass gardens maybe would have been covered enough that Theon wouldn't have been able to see it when "the man put a hand on his dagger." I only say that because with such heavy snow, i doubt they'd dig out the snow for any other purpose than going to doors and steps that led places, not just to a glass panel... It's still possible he could have seen his face... Hope that helps...very interesting theory for sure, and possible seeing who our author is ha... Yea no glass gardens because they were destroyed when Ramsey sacked Winterfell. Also, my theory is that it's the Kingslayer on a mission to kill Bolton or something. When Theon shows him is hand with the fingers chopped off he laughs. Who else would find that ironically funny other than a man who lost a hand himself. Crackpot I know and probably not feasible chronologically but I like it. Also, it could be Robbett Glover who we haven't seen since the Davos-Manderly scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted May 26, 2012 Author Share Posted May 26, 2012 I just dont see how the Blackfish is feasible. Its impossible for him to blend in and he isnt familiar with Winterfell to the wxtent that he can get around unnoticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Payme Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Yea no glass gardens because they were destroyed when Ramsey sacked Winterfell. Also, my theory is that it's the Kingslayer on a mission to kill Bolton or something. When Theon shows him is hand with the fingers chopped off he laughs. Who else would find that ironically funny other than a man who lost a hand himself. Crackpot I know and probably not feasible chronologically but I like it. Also, it could be Robbett Glover who we haven't seen since the Davos-Manderly scene.Firsties that would be funny, and awesome (Jamie)... But back to the glass gardens...I do not remember reading about the gardens being destroyed (i've only read it once, i'm just now starting my reread)...but assuming it was destroyed, i guess some of the glass could still be standing? I mean it is possible it didn't all shatter into a million pieces..there could be some big chunks left?Buttt, another reason i doubt the glass gardens: looking at a map of Winterfell, the glass gardens are in the complete opposite corner of Winterfell from the hall (where Theon begins that walk)... Reading that part of the chapter again, it seems that Theon walks a bit more further after his encounter with the hooded-person... The glass gardens are as far as he could go without reaching the wall of Winterfell... So i'm assuming that encounter did not happen there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous Ali Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Yea no glass gardens because they were destroyed when Ramsey sacked Winterfell. Also, my theory is that it's the Kingslayer on a mission to kill Bolton or something. When Theon shows him is hand with the fingers chopped off he laughs. Who else would find that ironically funny other than a man who lost a hand himself. Crackpot I know and probably not feasible chronologically but I like it. Also, it could be Robbett Glover who we haven't seen since the Davos-Manderly scene.That would've been awesome if the time matched. Kingslayer would've been an awesome theory. You know we read about BwB and they they haven't done anything major yet; so this could've been a great start for them to enter the game. Maybe UnCat isn't so bad after all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aluminum Link Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 hahaha........so maybe rickon's still there in the lowest crypt level that no one ever goes intoIt's not impossible that Rickon is somewhere nearby, even if he's not in the castle or crypt itself.A lot of naysayers of the Davos theory say there just isn't enough time for Davos to complete the mission and bring Rickon back. If that were the case, what was Manderly thinking in the first place? He knows he's leading his army off to war with Stannis when he leaves White Harbour. He has vowed to fight for Stannis if Davos succeeds. His whole plan makes no sense unless he is confident that Davos can come through in time. Since Wyman is a smart man, I refuse to believe he just came up with a bad plan.In the previous HM threads the time was calculated between Davos's meeting with Manderly and the Hooded Man encounter and it worked out to be several months. Sufficient time, in my opinion, for Davos to have sailed to Skagos, completed (or possibly failed) his mission, and then made a beeline for Winterfell, Rickon in tow.Giving enough time for Davos to complete his mission may have been one of the reasons that Wyman traveled so slowly first between White Harbour and Barrowton and then again between Barrowton and Winterfell. He was delaying in hopes that Davos would return before he was forced to choose between Stannis and Bolton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aluminum Link Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Also, it could be Robbett Glover who we haven't seen since the Davos-Manderly scene.This theory was also discussed in the previous HM threads and I think it's definitely a possibility. A related (literally) possibility is that the HM is Galbart Glover who has not been seen since Robb sent him off to find Greywater Watch before the Red Wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted May 26, 2012 Author Share Posted May 26, 2012 Yea no glass gardens because they were destroyed when Ramsey sacked Winterfell. Also, my theory is that it's the Kingslayer on a mission to kill Bolton or something. When Theon shows him is hand with the fingers chopped off he laughs. Who else would find that ironically funny other than a man who lost a hand himself. Crackpot I know and probably not feasible chronologically but I like it. Also, it could be Robbett Glover who we haven't seen since the Davos-Manderly scene.So UnCat is going to a the sudden trust Jamie on more missions? If she doesnt hang him immediately, i'll lose faith in that storyline immediately.Im feeling the Davos theory so far if its not an Umber man or possibly a Glover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted May 26, 2012 Author Share Posted May 26, 2012 It's not impossible that Rickon is somewhere nearby, even if he's not in the castle or crypt itself.A lot of naysayers of the Davos theory say there just isn't enough time for Davos to complete the mission and bring Rickon back. If that were the case, what was Manderly thinking in the first place? He knows he's leading his army off to war with Stannis when he leaves White Harbour. He has vowed to fight for Stannis if Davos succeeds. His whole plan makes no sense unless he is confident that Davos can come through in time. Since Wyman is a smart man, I refuse to believe he just came up with a bad plan.In the previous HM threads the time was calculated between Davos's meeting with Manderly and the Hooded Man encounter and it worked out to be several months. Sufficient time, in my opinion, for Davos to have sailed to Skagos, completed (or possibly failed) his mission, and then made a beeline for Winterfell, Rickon in tow.Giving enough time for Davos to complete his mission may have been one of the reasons that Wyman traveled so slowly first between White Harbour and Barrowton and then again between Barrowton and Winterfell. He was delaying in hopes that Davos would return before he was forced to choose between Stannis and Bolton.I like it.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Giant Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 I now love the Davos theory, makes sense for the story(that we know should coclude after 2 more books). Plus we already know that Davos gets things done in a timely manner(unlike most characters). The laugh about the fingers fits too.I know folks want to see Skagos, but I dont think it's necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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