Man Theon meets with the Hooded Cloak

[Ciazio]

The HM sounded alot more like the Theon from earlier in the series, mocking what he has become now.

In ASOIAF characters/people who want a comeback and a sort of redemption have to pay a price (Jaime's hand, Jorah's freedom, NW's oath, Sandor Clegane's seclusion and so on)..

I wonder what kind of price will Theon have to pay. He bringed death and disruption upon his own "family", I definitively can't see him survive the next book.

Maybe he is going to die in an heroic action IE killing Roose and Ramsay.

[Aluminum Link]

If Davos has returned, bringing Rickon with him, wouldn't Osha have come along as well? I doubt that she would just have handed Rickon over to a total stranger and stayed behind on Skagos.

And if she has come with Davos to Winterfell, wouldn't she be the natural choice to sneak into the castle and deliver the message to Manderly that Rickon had returned? She lived there for quite some time and we already know that she knew how to sneak in and out of the place unnoticed. She would also be very much aware of the relationship between Theon and the Starks, and she would even have seen much of what he did in Winterfell first hand - definitely enough to despise him and call him a kinslayer.

Assuming the party consists of Osha, Rickon and Davos only, perhaps Rickon was uncomfortable having Osha leave. She is probably like a mother to him now. It's also worth noting that Theon would have recognized Osha. Not only does it mean that she wasn't the HM, but it also means that sending her in would have been a bigger risk.

The problems I can see with this theory is that Theon thought that it was a hooded man, not a hooded woman. But it was dark. Are there any descriptions of the hooded man's voice and stature?

It says "...he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction..."

So it is a man as far as Theon can tell at least.

[Aluminum Link]

Actually, the HM's usage is the 1st time he's called kinslayer. Later the spearwife uses the word. That's it. Twice in the whole book. More on this below.

I know this. I have also read the spoiler chapter in which he's called it again by that spoilerific guy. Two instances from two people in two very distinct groups is enough for me to consider the feeling widely (enough) shared.

I disagree that the HM's tone was up in the air. He put his hand on his dagger and demanded to know how Theon still lived. That's anger. He LAUGHED when he saw the maimed fingers. That's not pity.

Ok, so prove it based on what's written in the text. It's not possible because the descriptors just aren't there.

What was very clear in the first 2 HM threads is that everyone interprets the HM's emotions very differently. That's because it's been left wide open for interpretation.

"False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?"

...is what's written. Not (for example):

"False is all you were," he spat. "How is it you still breathe?"

Also, if he's so angry, why is there not a single exclamation point used? (!)

Another example, how do you know he didn't reach for his dagger out of surprise or out of self defense? He reaches for it before he addresses Theon. Someone sneaking around hoping to go unnoticed might reach for their dagger as a reaction. He then does nothing with it because he realizes the shell of a man standing before him is no threat.

Similar thing with the laugh.

The man looked, and laughed. "I leave you to him then."

Not:

The man looked, and laughed coldly.

Nor:

The man looked, and laughed briefly.

Nor:

The man looked, and laughed merrily.

I think you get my point. Unlike pretty much all of GRRM's writing, this segment is uniquely devoid of descriptors. I think the reason he does that is to give the reader one impression (that the HM is very angry), when another impression could work just as well. For fun, reread the HM segment but imagine the HM is speaking in a deep, dry, flat voice. It all still works. So how are we to know which one was intended?

[Jabronius Maximus]

@AluminumLink those are good points, but I'd find it pretty hard to justify how that laugh was anything but a mock, especially after seeing the maimed fingers. We also have to take into account that not only is he hooded, but its snowing, cold, etc - hardly conditions for a PoV character to give us an accurate description of people he encounters.

That whole chapter was strange, though. But since no description of the tone/expression of the HM was really given, that just leaves it wide open as to who the HM actually is. It could be someone close to the Starks/good Northmen, or some random bloke who took refuge in Winterfell to survive the winter (personally, I'm starting to lean towards Davos, the pieces of the puzzle fit quite nicely, I think).

The tone would be a valuable clue as to who it was (or at least whose side the HM is on), and GRRM conveniently leaves it out. :bang:

[malek]

I was allways quite sure that it has to be someone of BWB. News of "Arya's weading" surely got to Catelyn, and she sent one of "brothers" to be close. Probably Tom, Anguy or Lem.

It simply has so much sense that one of them was there. Hate in exchange with Theon could signal someone who was very close to Catelyn.

[Woland]

Come on, the man appears out of nowhere and strides directly towards him. Their interaction is weird, Theon doesn't even wonder who the guy is. It's CLEARLY his reflection in broken panels of the glass gardens, and he's clearly talking to himself.

This does NOT imply a "Tyler Durden" scenario, which would be definitively far-fetched. Theon isn't capable of killing anyone, and probably a part of him understands he's talking to his reflection. This amazing chapter is the lowest point for his sanity, he's detached from reality and talking to himself, but he subsequently he starts slowly getting better.

[VaramyrSixchins]

@AluminumLink those are good points, but I'd find it pretty hard to justify how that laugh was anything but a mock, especially after seeing the maimed fingers.

This. I'm sorry, my friend, I simply don't think you NEED a lot of descriptors to get the HM's tone. It's nothing but contempt for Theon.

These are the HM's lines, in their entirety.

"Theon Turncloack. Theon Kinslayer."

"False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?"

"I leave you to him, then."

So, by way of greeting, he calls Theon a betrayer and cites something widely said to be cursed by gods and men. This is not ambiguous. If someone stopped you on the street and said "Aluminum Link, backstabber. Aluminum Link, babykiller", would you really need them to spit to be able to tell they feel contemptuous of you?

The next line clearly means "You're a liar, why has no one killed you?" Can't see any other way that could be reasonably construed. Especially in the context of the HM's other lines.

Finally, when confronted with Theon's maimed, disfigured, clearly tortured and flayed finger's, the HM LAUGHS. Laughs. To the exclusion of ALL other possible reactions, he laughs. He doesn't gasp, look away, express any type of empathy, sympathy, regret, compassion, doesn't offer condolences, comfort, doesn't impassively, apathetically look on it and shrug, he laughs. And if you find laughing at torture ambiguous, look at the next line. "I leave you to him, then." In other words, "Carry on, carry on, jolly good torture."

BTW, the HM doesn't put his hand on his dagger until after he's made eye contact with Theon. Recognition, reaction, in that order, implying further he has nothing but anger and contempt for Theon.

[Lady of Fire]

I just dont see how the Blackfish is feasible. Its impossible for him to blend in and he isnt familiar with Winterfell to the wxtent that he can get around unnoticed.

Especially when the snow is obscuring everything and the only one who really knows his way about is Reek/Theon. From what I understand, the Blackfish has probably never been North, let alone in Winterfell. He's remained primarily in the Riverlands and the Vale.

With Davos, I'm 98% sure that it isn't him. His mission right now is Skagos. Manderly is smart enough to not keep all his eggs in one basket.

Now, if it were someone who used to live in Winterfell... (banking pretty hard on this)

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

No one likes Theon except Jeyne/Arya.

I think degrees of contempt are available in HM's words and they could be mixed with pity, bravado, anger but if we assume HM has done any killing - and he hates Theon - he would kill him.

Speculating on GRRM's usual writing style seems useless here, he is intentionally vague, and clearly left details of description out (compare to the earlier descriptions of people in the same chapter)

HM was striding in the opposite direction/towards as Theon, not intentionally walking at him (Woland)after seeing him, they just crossed paths.

Theon feels comfortable enough to show him his hand, which in all other cases (except Ramsey?) he nearly has a melt down if asked to do. So he must feel comfortable w/ HM & HM couldn't just be hanging around Winterfell or he would know Theon is alive, he also recognized him w/ Asha couldn't in the escape chapter.

Not sure if I posted it in this forum, but I don't see the idea of claiming Theon is seeing a reflection of himself in the Glass Gardens - because he was outside. I remember GG as being inside (to heat Winterfell).

[bloodymime]

Winds of Winter spoiler.

I was starting to wonder if Crowsfood could be the hooded man. Both men say near the exact same thing to Theon.

Dance.

“Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer.” “I’m not. I never … I was ironborn.” “False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?”

Winds.

" — a turncloak and a kinslayer," Crowfood had finished. "You will hold that lying tongue, or lose it."

Dance talks about their eyes meeting though and Theon never whimpers over an eyepatch the way he does in Winds but it's still interesting how the descriptions match exactly, Turncloak, kinslayer, false/liar and even in the same order.

[Prince of the North]

HM was striding in the opposite direction/towards as Theon, not intentionally walking at him (Woland)after seeing him, they just crossed paths.

But these two ideas are definitely not mutually exclusive. If someone is walking in the opposite direction to you then they certainly could be walking directly toward you.

Not sure if I posted it in this forum, but I don't see the idea of claiming Theon is seeing a reflection of himself in the Glass Gardens - because he was outside. I remember GG as being inside (to heat Winterfell).

Um, the Glass Garden is basically a greenhouse (i.e. mostly glass to allow sunlight in). What heats parts of Winterfell (including the Glass Garden) are hot springs on the site. But the main point is that the Glass Garden is indeed "outside".

ETA: added link and a bit more detail. Also, removed statement about hot springs being routed through the walls, etc. because I'm not completely sure about that (I thought I read it somewhere but it's been a long time...)

[Miriel]

"off al, the rooms in Winterf

Um, the Glass Garden is basically a greenhouse (i.e. mostly glass to allow sunlight in). What heats parts of Winterfell (including the Glass Garden) are hot springs on the site. But the main point is that the Glass Garden is indeed "outside".

ETA: added link and a bit more detail. Also, removed statement about hot springs being routed through the walls, etc. because I'm not completely sure about that (I thought I read it somewhere but it's been a long time...)

"Of all the rooms in Winterfell's Great Keep, Catelyn's bedchambers were the hottest ....The castle had been built over natural hot springs, and the scalding waters rushed through its walls and chambers like blood through a man's body, driving the chill from the stone halls, filling the glass gardens with a moist warmth, keeping the earth from freezing." From Catelyn's second chapter in GOT.

[bemused]

I think that description of the water from the hot springs running through the walls of Winterfell comes from Sansa speaking to either LF or Sweet Robin when she's building her snow WF.

I think Theon believes he is speaking to one of the ghosts , someone closely associated with his years at WF. It's the old gods and the ghosts he seeks understanding from , and who he tries to explain himself to.He recoils from showing his disfigurement to people in the here and now, to avoid further humiliation ... and perhaps he thinks that if Ramsay thought he was trying to gain sympathy , he'd be in for more torture.

Anyone closely affiliated with the Starks, who had seen him growing up with Ned's sons, would probably consider him a kinslayer ( or as good as one ). When I read that passage I always felt a heavy dose of contempt in the HM's laugh and dialogue.

So I feel it's someone Theon might well assume to be dead. Either Benjen or Harwin , or anyone who survived Robb's campaign and the RW, that Theon hasn't seen come back with Roose , or hasn't heard report of being a prisoner.

That would plainly rule out Davos..they haven't met .. and probably Howland Reed as well. I don't buy split personality Theon, because I think GRRM would have given us one or two clearer hints. Instead we have the opposite .Theon is always reminding himself to call himself Reek , to be Reek , for fear of reprisals. If he was truly believing himself to be Reek, that wouldn't be necessary.The only time the glass gardens are mentioned , we're told that they're badly damaged, so I doubt enough panes would be whole enough to give a clear reflection , and in the dark , in a snowstorm , it's dubious whether they would give any reflection at all.

[Prince of the North]

"off al, the rooms in Winterf"Of all the rooms in Winterfell's Great Keep, Catelyn's bedchambers were the hottest ....The castle had been built over natural hot springs, and the scalding waters rushed through its walls and chambers like blood through a man's body, driving the chill from the stone halls, filling the glass gardens with a moist warmth, keeping the earth from freezing." From Catelyn's second chapter in GOT.

Ah, thanks! Still, I had originally stated that ALL of Winterfell was heated this way and, after reading the wiki, it said the Great Hall, Gods Wood, and Glass Garden were heated with hot springs, etc. So, I didn't feel like I could state that. It looks like parts of Winterfell are heated by the hot springs but not all of it.

[Bushido]

^ The man calls Theon a kinslayer. Practically the only thing that keeps Theon together is that he knows that he isn't a kinslayer. It would a solid idea had Theon been struggling with this - but,no,he knows he isn't a kinslayer.

[Aluminum Link]

@AluminumLink those are good points, but I'd find it pretty hard to justify how that laugh was anything but a mock, especially after seeing the maimed fingers.

This. I'm sorry, my friend, I simply don't think you NEED a lot of descriptors to get the HM's tone. It's nothing but contempt for Theon.

<snip>

Finally, when confronted with Theon's maimed, disfigured, clearly tortured and flayed finger's, the HM LAUGHS. Laughs. To the exclusion of ALL other possible reactions, he laughs. He doesn't gasp, look away, express any type of empathy, sympathy, regret, compassion, doesn't offer condolences, comfort, doesn't impassively, apathetically look on it and shrug, he laughs. And if you find laughing at torture ambiguous, look at the next line. "I leave you to him, then." In other words, "Carry on, carry on, jolly good torture."

BTW, the HM doesn't put his hand on his dagger until after he's made eye contact with Theon. Recognition, reaction, in that order, implying further he has nothing but anger and contempt for Theon.

We may just have to agree to disagree on the ambiguity of the scene. I don't think it's as cut and dry as you're making it out to be. All I can offer you at this point is this alternative for you to consider. If you don't think it's possible, there's nothing more I can think to say.

[bemused]

Oh. Fanfiction. Just what George likes.

[VaramyrSixchins]

We may just have to agree to disagree on the ambiguity of the scene. I don't think it's as cut and dry as you're making it out to be.

Fair enough. Agree to disagree it is. The bottom line is the only reason this thread exists is because the HM was so vaguely described and wasn't positively I.D'd. Obviously, different readers have different ideas.

I don't buy split personality Theon, because I think GRRM would have given us one or two clearer hints. Instead we have the opposite .Theon is always reminding himself to call himself Reek , to be Reek , for fear of reprisals. If he was truly believing himself to be Reek, that wouldn't be necessary.

.

As I've argued in previous posts, there's several, several hints. Besides, the HM most decidedly was not the Reek persona, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. While it's true he did strive to be Reek for quite a while, bear in mind that Theon not only has to transform psychologically from Reek to Theon, but he also has deceptions to maintain ABOUT Theon once he completes the transformation. (Several, actually. Ramsay's sack of WF, Arya's identity falsehood, Bran/Rickon's "deaths".) It's hard enough for him to "remember his name", let alone to acknowledge the truth about what being Theon entails. That's what the HM represents. Perhaps not a split-personality, per se, but definitely a hallucenatory projection stemming from his attempts to deal with shit.

It's no coincidence that the HM calls him "kinslayer" (the first time anyone has used that word in relation to Theon), very soon after his trip to the crypts. The trip where he sees his Stark namesake and openly acknowledges his desire to be one of the Starks. It's no coincidence that the HM appears during a moment where Theon feels "almost at peace."

The bottom line is, it's much more logical, for me, to accept a hallucination that occurs in a story arc that deals with horrific psychological trauma then it is to accept any other explaination. Theon=HM can be backed by the text, makes sense for the arc, and is far more compelling than the concept of the HM being some spy, savior, or secret agent ninja assassin.

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

I was referring to this comment, Prince of Winterfell

Come on, the man appears out of nowhere and strides directly towards him. Their interaction is weird, Theon doesn't even wonder who the guy is. It's CLEARLY his reflection in broken panels of the glass gardens, and he's clearly talking to himself.

Ser Elvin of Clymer, on 01 June 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

HM was striding in the opposite direction/towards as Theon, not intentionally walking at him (Woland)after seeing him, they just crossed paths.

But these two ideas are definitely not mutually exclusive. If someone is walking in the opposite direction to you then they certainly could be walking directly toward you.

and mainly just trying to remove some inferred ideas, that aren't in the writing (maybe intentionally not in it)

Yes, the Glass Gardens could be there (though I believe they are mostly destroyed and in walls) and Theon could see his reflection - BUT there is no actual statement to that effect in the chapter, GG is not mentioned.

Yes, HM did walk towards him, I just don't think he contrived it, they were walking towards each other in opposite directions and ran into each other. Him being surprised to see Theon and putting his hand to his dagger as opposed to having a hand on it (or the dagger out) when a murderer (or if he is a murderer) would express that he saw Theon before they run into each other. That and the depiction of snow and not being able to see 5' away from each other, tell me HM walked into Theon on the way to where he was going, not saw Theon and walked towards him.

There are already lots of possibilities, but I feel these 2 are reaching in the wrong direction.

[Aluminum Link]

The bottom line is, it's much more logical, for me, to accept a hallucination that occurs in a story arc that deals with horrific psychological trauma then it is to accept any other explaination. Theon=HM can be backed by the text, makes sense for the arc, and is far more compelling than the concept of the HM being some spy, savior, or secret agent ninja assassin.

Among other reasons (and for the same reason it can't be the Blackfish or Benjen) HM=Theon makes very little sense because Theon would have recognized himself. And if he did recognize himself, it makes no sense not to state that in a text written from Theon's perspective.

In general, I see no reason for GRRM to leave this whole encounter so mysterious if it's just a hallucination.