Man Theon meets with the Hooded Cloak

[VaramyrSixchins]

Gah! The Hooded Man is Whoresbane, I tell you! Re-read Reek's first chapter, where he is dragged from the dungeon and set before Ramsey, Karstark and Whoresbane. Whoresbane regards Theon with utter contempt, and asks why Ramsay has not yet killed him (how is it you still breathe?) - in other words, the same attitude the HM shows later towards Theon. The fact that Whoresbane has already seen him at his most degraded also explains why Theon has no compunction removing his glove and showing the HM his flayed fingers.

I think Whoresbane is conspiring with his brother Crowfood, who is encamped outside the walls, and he is returning from some pre-planned assignation when he encounters Theon. Is it beyond reason to think that the Brothers Umber might have laid some plans before they decided to split their allegiances? The only reason Whoresbane is with Bolton is because the GreatJon is being held hostage, so there's certainly no love lost there.

But remember the context of Whoresbane's first encounter with Theon. "You would have done better to slit his throat", said the lord in mail. "A dog who turns on his master is fit for naught but skinning." "This grows tedious. Kill him and be done with it."

Whoresbane is arguing that Theon deserves to die for his betrayals, and after witnessing Ramsay toy with him, becomes a little off-put by it, and urges him to put an end to it.

By the time the HM appears, though, Whoresbane has seen that Ramsay keeps Theon around for his own sadistic kicks and has also seen that Theon has some strategic use to Ramsay (Moat Calin, wedding, etc) I suppose you can argue that "How is it you still breathe?" is an indication Whoresbane thinks Theon's usefulness has ended, but then why would he laugh at Theon's continued toture and tacitly endorse it ("leave you to him, then") when he's already on record as finding it tedious?

There's ample reason to believe the Umbers are up to something, but a little risky for Whoresbane himself to go chat with his brother, no?

[VaramyrSixchins]

This really makes the most sense. Being theon is worthless......why would he now see himself? If he's so perceptive and he saw himself, ehy didnt he see an old man in a hooded cloak.

I really have to laugh at " evidence" that its theon because the man he saw had a hooded cloak on- in the middle of a horrific snowstorm. Lol

Again, I'm not arguing that Theon sees a spitting image of himself as he looks at that moment. I'm arguing that he sees a hallucination. The definition of a hallucination is something one sees that isn't really there. If he could recognize it as a hallucination, then he wouldn't be hallucinating, would he?

And granted, lots of people were wear hoods in a snowstorm. The fact that he hadn't changed clothes since the wedding is a supporting detail that shows his state of psychosis. Feel free to discount it, but there's other stuff a little harder to dismiss.

[VaramyrSixchins]

Not one bit of this is evidence. Especially the hooded cloak and showing his hand. What does "one page later" mean? It's a completely different situation.

The vague description one holds no water either. Hard to see someone with a hood on in a snowstorm.

Why would Theon be so reluctant to show his fingers to lords and lady, who know full well the torture he's endured, yet be so quick to pull his glove off in front of a stranger?

And the vague description is completely out of the norm for Theon. Reread his arc. He ALWAYS I.D.'s speakers by name, sigil, association, or job title.

[Buried Treasure]

Theon meets the hooded man outside, in a snowstorm, at night. He had not long left the great hall so we could tentatively suggest that he is still near the courtyard and a bit of light is spilling out from the hall. If not that, there is maybe a bit of moon, otherwise they would be in pitch black. Even with a glove removed all the man is going to see is a silhouette of a mishapen hand. That is a very different proposition to a close examination of his hands in a room used by the high lords (that is lit as well as possible anywhere in the castle).

The lack of identification of the hooded man suggests to me that his identity is not important. He says no worse to Theon than the soldiers around the castle do all the time (except threatening his life which the common men do not do in public as it would get them in trouble with Ramsay). The significance of the encounter is for the reader. It is the first time Theon speculates on the identity of the killer (his previous thoughts only relate the speculation of others) which tells us that Theon does not know who it is.

[Mulled Wino]

Again, I'm not arguing that Theon sees a spitting image of himself as he looks at that moment. I'm arguing that he sees a hallucination. The definition of a hallucination is something one sees that isn't really there. If he could recognize it as a hallucination, then he wouldn't be hallucinating, would he?

And granted, lots of people were wear hoods in a snowstorm. The fact that he hadn't changed clothes since the wedding is a supporting detail that shows his state of psychosis. Feel free to discount it, but there's other stuff a little harder to dismiss.

he never changed when he was Reek....he's still reek regardless of how roose is trying to dress him up is the point. not that he's walking around hallucinating.

we don't need the hooded cloak man to tell us that Theon's crazy, we have umpteen examples of that.

[Mulled Wino]

Why would Theon be so reluctant to show his fingers to lords and lady, who know full well the torture he's endured, yet be so quick to pull his glove off in front of a stranger?

And the vague description is completely out of the norm for Theon. Reread his arc. He ALWAYS I.D.'s speakers by name, sigil, association, or job title.

Why? Because he's called out in front of all the Lords and they want blood. It's a lot more embarrassing showing off a handicap to a group of intimidating people than to a random passerby.

Perhaps he doesn't identify the guy because its in a snowstorm in the evening and he doesn't know the man's name or job title, the man shows no sigil on his cloak, or theon has never associated with him before.

None of these are evidence of any sort, they are just random happenings gathered up to attempt to prove a theory, but they hold no water, they could just as easily be anything else. Maybe he's now more comfortable showing his hand, he just showed it to a room full of people, why not some guy when he leaves the room?

[Dimadick]

Observation on the "Kinslayer" bit.

When Rowan denies killing Little Walder, she uses the phrase. "Say it again and I will rip your lying tongue out, kinslayer".

Later, he is speaking to Rowan again and defending his reputation. "I have done terrible things... betrayed my own, turned my cloak, ordered the death of men who trusted me... but I am no kinslayer". Rowan replies: "Stark's boys were never brothers to you, aye. We know".

Two statements from the same woman, contradictory in meaning. Has she heard his arguments before? Is she trying to calm him down the second time, or has she changed her mind.

[bemused]

Theon knew Ramsay would punish him if he dared to change his clothes.

He meets the HM first..afterwards he's taken for questioning. So he willingly shows his hand to the HM and strangely feels no fear, but doesn't want to take his glove off in front of his inquisitors , even though it's plain some of them want to blame him for the deaths.

He doesn't even mention the HM to them , even though he wonders , himself, if the HM , the "nightwalker" , could be responsible .This suggests to me that he doesn't think it's someone they could arrest , even if he told about meeting him.

Why does he feel oddly unafraid ? ( I don't have the exact quote ).. He doesn't feel entirely sure that he's just met the killer , but wonders if he could be..Is he afraid because he thinks the HM is someone or something that anyone would be afraid of ?...like one of the Ghosts in Winterfell ? Seems plausible to me.

ETA : I think Rowan is being a bit sarcastic in the second quote...Sure , technically they weren't brothers , but , in the eyes of the North, they might as well have been. One of the spearwives might have overheard his stammering protestations before the heart tree before.

[queenofthewatch]

I don't know how people can keep on saying Benjen would have gone to the Wall ( if he survived ) when we don't know where he's been , who he's talked to or just how urgent " There must always be a Stark in Winterfell " is. We've seen BR and the CotF take a hand in both Sam's and Bran's survival , and influence their actions . That they might have done the same with Benjen is far from out of the question.

I don't say he's the most likely person, but certainly possible.

[queenofthewatch]

I agree benjin seems like the most possible person. He would be the only one who would have known theon even with the state he was in.to my knowledge black fish ,glover ,or davos wouldnt have known theon enough

Maybe a reed because of the dreams but i like the whol stark in

winterfell thing And the jamie thing would be cool but i doubt we'll get something as ironic as that

[hotweaselsoup]

There's ample reason to believe the Umbers are up to something, but a little risky for Whoresbane himself to go chat with his brother, no?

Less risky than trusting someone else to do it.

And perhaps he was caught at it once already, which is why the Ryswell groom ended up dead at the foot of the battlements?

Come to think of it, Yellow Dick laughed the longest and loudest at Abel's re-casting of the Dornishman's wife as a northman's daughter. Didn't the Umbers have a daughter carried off by wildlings? Hearing how much Yellow Dick enjoyed the song must have rankled.

And then there's Little Walder, scion of the Family Frey, gutted like a pig. Similar, mayhaps, to how the Umber heir - the Smalljon - was run through at the Red Wedding?

You can have your split-personality Theon - I'll admit, the idea has a certain narrative elegance. But I prefer flinty, vengeful Umbers plotting their midnight plots and

springing their traps. :devil:

[therustman]

Defo an argument for Whoresbane but I am pushed towards it being Theon, possibly a relection, but certainly that is the strong impression I get when reading it so I will stick with that until more evidence appears.

I also think that what is said to 'Reek' by HM is what original Theon (pre Iron Islands) would think of him.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

Defo an argument for Whoresbane but I am pushed towards it being Theon, possibly a relection, but certainly that is the strong impression I get when reading it so I will stick with that until more evidence appears.

I also think that what is said to 'Reek' by HM is what original Theon (pre Iron Islands) would think of him.

Everyone in the North thinks that of him. Old Theon would probably be cruel (some smart remark would be inevitable, something good people of Westeros would call "a cruel jape") and cynical while HM seems...disappointed - in lack of better term

[bemused]

Here's a little something I noticed the other night whil re-reading Arya's wedding. Theon notices that hoarfrost covered the broken panes of the glass gardens.. I think that , by itself, would rule out any reflections.

[Bushido]

Here's a little something I noticed the other night whil re-reading Arya's wedding. Theon notices that hoarfrost covered the broken panes of the glass gardens.. I think that , by itself, would rule out any reflections.

or people would take it as a sign that Theon was trying to fight the man,but there was only glass and his imagination :lol:

[Ser Giant]

It's probably Balon Greyjoy resurrected by the giant tentacle wielding Drowned God.

For some reason everytime I read the Theon/HM convo I feel like he's talking to another Ironborn/relative. Did I already suggest Dagmer?

Anyways, that "leave you to him, then." comes across, to me, like "you kill "him", I'll keep doing what I'm doing." Or "you keep being "his" Reek, I'll keep doing what I'm doing."

[Aluminum Link]

With all due respect, my friend, you DIDN'T cite examples from the text that were ambiguous. You cited what's in the text and argued that because there wasn't a certain punctuation mark, or "laughed" didn't have an adjective, it must be ambiguous. And I did reject that, because the text doesn't NEED those things to tell you what the HM's tone was.

The entire point was that the scene is ambiguous by omission. I can't very well provide examples of omitted text now can I?

If you (and other posters) remain unconvinced of Theon=HM despite all the evidence (the uncharacteristically vague description, the fact Theon was himself wearing a hooded cloak, the time displacement, the 1st use of "kinslayer" coming after Theon's trip to the crypts where he acknowledges his Stark namesake and his desire to be one of the Starks, and the 1st use of "kinslayer" coming from the HM and not something Theon had to deal with being called by northmen prior to this...

So what about the 2nd and 3rd times he's called kinslayer? The only way your argument makes any kind of sense is if the HM is the ONLY person who calls him kinslayer. The HM being the 1st isn't significant (unless you think Rowan and Mr. Spoiler are also figments of Theon's imagination).

[Aluminum Link]

The lack of identification of the hooded man suggests to me that his identity is not important.

Or that he doesn't know/recognize him. But yes, this is a possibility too. Although I think not, as explained below.

The significance of the encounter is for the reader. It is the first time Theon speculates on the identity of the killer (his previous thoughts only relate the speculation of others) which tells us that Theon does not know who it is.

I completely agree that this scene is for the benefit of the reader. Theon gains nothing from it, never even thinks of it again (one of the reasons why HM=Theon would be such a massive let down IMO).

However, I disagree on the sole purpose being to let the reader know Theon doesn't know who is committing the murders. That could have been easily accomplished without this bizarre encounter. We are privy to his thoughts all the time. So, I think it must have been put there for a second reason. And figuring out what that second reason is is why we're all here :)

[LordDolorousEdd]

I always thought that big walder killed little walder....... (i might have that the wrong way around)

[Mulled Wino]

I always thought that big walder killed little walder....... (i might have that the wrong way around)

This is correct.........