Man Theon meets with the Hooded Cloak

[alienarea]

I am torn between HM = Theon and HM = Davos.

Theon as the HM makes sense for Theon's arc, his hallucination (HM) calling him kinslayer because this self thinks of Robb as a brother and feels guilty for betraying him.

On the other hand HM = Davos makes sense to advance the story (if GRRM wants to finish in two books it's almost a must).

Scenario: Davos has the pirate connections to quickly find out which ship Osha, Rickon and Shaggydog boarded and where it was heading. He follows, picks them up and drops them in White Harbor protected by Wylis Manderley. Then Davos heads to Winterfell to meet Stannis. He gets into Winterfell by merging with some of the northern guests.

[hotweaselsoup]

Winds of Winter spoiler.

I was starting to wonder if Crowsfood could be the hooded man. Both men say near the exact same thing to Theon.

Dance.

“Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer.” “I’m not. I never … I was ironborn.” “False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?”

Winds.

" — a turncloak and a kinslayer," Crowfood had finished. "You will hold that lying tongue, or lose it."

Dance talks about their eyes meeting though and Theon never whimpers over an eyepatch the way he does in Winds but it's still interesting how the descriptions match exactly, Turncloak, kinslayer, false/liar and even in the same order.

Gah! The Hooded Man is Whoresbane, I tell you! Re-read Reek's first chapter, where he is dragged from the dungeon and set before Ramsey, Karstark and Whoresbane. Whoresbane regards Theon with utter contempt, and asks why Ramsay has not yet killed him (how is it you still breathe?) - in other words, the same attitude the HM shows later towards Theon. The fact that Whoresbane has already seen him at his most degraded also explains why Theon has no compunction removing his glove and showing the HM his flayed fingers.

I think Whoresbane is conspiring with his brother Crowfood, who is encamped outside the walls, and he is returning from some pre-planned assignation when he encounters Theon. Is it beyond reason to think that the Brothers Umber might have laid some plans before they decided to split their allegiances? The only reason Whoresbane is with Bolton is because the GreatJon is being held hostage, so there's certainly no love lost there.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

Gah! The Hooded Man is Whoresbane, I tell you! Re-read Reek's first chapter, where he is dragged from the dungeon and set before Ramsey, Karstark and Whoresbane. Whoresbane regards Theon with utter contempt, and asks why Ramsay has not yet killed him (how is it you still breathe?) - in other words, the same attitude the HM shows later towards Theon. The fact that Whoresbane has already seen him at his most degraded also explains why Theon has no compunction removing his glove and showing the HM his flayed fingers.

I think Whoresbane is conspiring with his brother Crowfood, who is encamped outside the walls, and he is returning from some pre-planned assignation when he encounters Theon. Is it beyond reason to think that the Brothers Umber might have laid some plans before they decided to split their allegiances? The only reason Whoresbane is with Bolton is because the GreatJon is being held hostage, so there's certainly no love lost there.

I must say I'm quite intrigued with this little story of yours

there is however one flaw - in the eyes of all those that held House Stark in high regard Theon is a liar and a traitor - he betrayed man that was his brother in all but blood and killed his heirs. Everyone that lives north of the Neck thinks Theon a liar, turncloak and whatnot. Might as well be one of the Glovers, one of the clans, one of Stark household ... anyone really.

[Aluminum Link]

Gah! The Hooded Man is Whoresbane, I tell you! Re-read Reek's first chapter, where he is dragged from the dungeon and set before Ramsey, Karstark and Whoresbane. Whoresbane regards Theon with utter contempt, and asks why Ramsay has not yet killed him (how is it you still breathe?) - in other words, the same attitude the HM shows later towards Theon. The fact that Whoresbane has already seen him at his most degraded also explains why Theon has no compunction removing his glove and showing the HM his flayed fingers.

I think Whoresbane is conspiring with his brother Crowfood, who is encamped outside the walls, and he is returning from some pre-planned assignation when he encounters Theon. Is it beyond reason to think that the Brothers Umber might have laid some plans before they decided to split their allegiances? The only reason Whoresbane is with Bolton is because the GreatJon is being held hostage, so there's certainly no love lost there.

While I certainly agree that there's a possibility that the Umbers inside and out are collaborating, I don't think the HM is Whoresbane or anyone else that Theon knows or would recognize. There is zero indication in the text that Theon knows or recognizes the HM as there should be if he does. I think you would be hard pressed to find an example in any ASOIAF book of a POV character meeting a person all alone (or otherwise) that they know or recognize and that person not being identified by name or at the very least by description.

[bloodymime]

Gah! The Hooded Man is Whoresbane, I tell you! Re-read Reek's first chapter, where he is dragged from the dungeon and set before Ramsey, Karstark and Whoresbane. Whoresbane regards Theon with utter contempt, and asks why Ramsay has not yet killed him (how is it you still breathe?) - in other words, the same attitude the HM shows later towards Theon. The fact that Whoresbane has already seen him at his most degraded also explains why Theon has no compunction removing his glove and showing the HM his flayed fingers.

I think Whoresbane is conspiring with his brother Crowfood, who is encamped outside the walls, and he is returning from some pre-planned assignation when he encounters Theon. Is it beyond reason to think that the Brothers Umber might have laid some plans before they decided to split their allegiances? The only reason Whoresbane is with Bolton is because the GreatJon is being held hostage, so there's certainly no love lost there.

I like this theory, as the big guy would say, I like it well. Too much similarity in the phrases for me for it not to mean some connection. Also this is the first time in all the books the term night walker is used, a cute way of referring to Whoresbane. For those that don't have english as a first language night walker is old slang for a whore.

[hotweaselsoup]

I like this theory, as the big guy would say, I like it well. Too much similarity in the phrases for me for it not to mean some connection. Also this is the first time in all the books the term night walker is used, a cute way of referring to Whoresbane. For those that don't have english as a first language night walker is old slang for a whore.

Great catch! Now I'm even more convinced :thumbsup:

[hotweaselsoup]

While I certainly agree that there's a possibility that the Umbers inside and out are collaborating, I don't think the HM is Whoresbane or anyone else that Theon knows or would recognize. There is zero indication in the text that Theon knows or recognizes the HM as there should be if he does. I think you would be hard pressed to find an example in any ASOIAF book of a POV character meeting a person all alone (or otherwise) that they know or recognize and that person not being identified by name or at the very least by description.

There is no indication that Theon DOESN'T recognize him either, though. Theon doesn't name the HM, but neither does he name him a stranger. And if the author were interested in keeping the HM's identity mysterious, perhaps he would leave things vague.

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

Theon demonstrates terror of anyone seeing his fingers.

- I think that expresses a certain familiarity & recognition w/ HM to willingly show him the nubs.

(The lack of fear has been used to support the Theon split-personality; Davos (they are mates because they are missing fingers); ghosts (he wouldn't be afraid of them) and other theories)

[bemused]

English is my first and only language ..but I equate "night walker" with something supernatural. ;)

[Aluminum Link]

There is no indication that Theon DOESN'T recognize him either, though. Theon doesn't name the HM, but neither does he name him a stranger. And if the author were interested in keeping the HM's identity mysterious, perhaps he would leave things vague.

Yes. And as the old saying goes, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". Or in this case, "Abcense of recognition is not evidence of non-recognition".

While it's true that Theon doesn't explicitly state that the HM is a stranger, he does have some thoughts that are certainly difficult to explain if he knows/recognizes him.

"The gods are not done with me," Theon answered, wondering if this could be the killer, the night walker who had stuffed Yellow Dick's cock into his mouth and pushed Roger Ryswell's groom off the battlements. Oddly he was not afraid.

If the HM is Whoresbane and he thinks Whoresbane might be the killer, why would he not have wondered this before now? Or after? Theon sees Whoresbane in the next chapter, but isn't reminded of their one-on-one encounter in the snow. The above thoughts only make sense in the context of the HM being someone Theon doesn't know or recognize.

So, I remain a firm believer that if Theon had recognized the HM, his identity would have been in the text. Just omitting something so significant is not the sort of cheap trickery that GRRM resorts to. He has much better ways to keep things mysterious and I think that most fans would cry foul if he used it in this case.

[Aluminum Link]

Theon demonstrates terror of anyone seeing his fingers. - I think that expresses a certain familiarity & recognition w/ HM to willingly show him the nubs. (The lack of fear has been used to support the Theon split-personality; Davos (they are mates because they are missing fingers); ghosts (he wouldn't be afraid of them) and other theories)

If he had seen Davos' fingers that would have been mentioned in the text as well.

I think the bit about the glove is fairly easy to explain with resorting to Theon recognizing the HM. The line immediately preceding the one in which he takes off the glove is "Oddly he was not afraid." Theon is fairly relaxed at that moment. Right before the HM encounter he is "almost at peace". When he takes his glove off for the HM he's feeling the best he's felt in a long time.

A short time later, when he is summoned before Bolton, he's being questioned about being a murderer by a half dozen high-born lords. This is a stressful situation. But also, he was once counted among their kind, even as a ward. He is embarrassed by what he has become and what has been done to him and it kills him to have to display it to them. This embarrassment becomes even more obvious a few lines later.

Theon peeled his gloves off and held his hands up for them to see. It is not as if I stand before them naked. It is not as bad as that.

The above is part of the evidence people use to show that Ramsay has gelded Theon. The above indicates that he is even more ashamed and embarrassed about that than his hands.

So, I think the fact that he shows his hand to the HM is not so much an indication of recognition as it is a reflection of his mood and situation at the time.

[bloodymime]

English is my first and only language ..but I equate "night walker" with something supernatural. ;)

By old slang I mean more 1300's than 1990's.

Though strangely enough it seems to still be in use in New England laws anyways.

"A Common Nightwalker is someone who is abroad at night and solicits others to engage in unlawful sexual acts, most commonly, a prostitute who solicits potential customers on the street.

Massachusetts General Laws Chapter 272, Section 53 punishes the crime of Common Nightwalker with imprisonment in jail for up to 6 months, and a fine of up to $200."

[bemused]

bloodymime...Yes, I know your meaning is legit , but the term's also been used ( also in much earlier times ) for vampire-like creatures..etc. .

Don't get me wrong , I find the Whoresbane theory appealing (and he's already seen Theon's disfigurements ), but I still think other solutions are a possibility as well ( I just find Davos or Howland or split -personality Theon pretty unlikely ).

[jsw2289]

We may just have to agree to disagree on the ambiguity of the scene. I don't think it's as cut and dry as you're making it out to be. All I can offer you at this point is this alternative for you to consider. If you don't think it's possible, there's nothing more I can think to say.

LOL a fanfic?! THAT'S what you give to " offer an alternative"? that's not an alternative, ser, that's rubbish...

you said "prove it from the text". VaramyrSixChins does just that, and what do YOU do?

this:

We may just have to agree to disagree on the ambiguity of the scene. I don't think it's as cut and dry as you're making it out to be. All I can offer you at this point is this alternative for you to consider. If you don't think it's possible, there's nothing more I can think to say.

no reasons with text from the book to support it, like you yourself first suggested i might add.

i respected your opinion until i read that, which in turn led me to write this reply...

i gotta say man, real obnoxious pushing that shit in peoples faces. (but then again so am i for writing this. but hey you asked for this)

there are easier ways to get people to read you knockoff...

[Aluminum Link]

no reasons with text from the book to support it, like you yourself first suggested i might add.

i respected your opinion until i read that, which in turn led me to write this reply...

You reference the very post (#83) in which I cite several examples from the text that are ambiguous. VaramyrSixchins rejected those. I could have cited several more examples, but what would the point have been? The response would likely have been the same. So I tried a different tactic.

The reality is that my position in this debate (that the text is ambiguous) is far easier to prove than VaramyrSixchins' position (that the text is completely unambiguous). All I need to do to disprove that statement is provide a counter-example. The link that's got you so upset is just that. A counter-example in which the HM is not angry and in which the reason for the laugh is not malicious. And (IMO) it still fits with the dialogue we're provided from Theon's perspective.

I have no interest in fan fiction. I have never read it and (despite your claim) have never written it. This segment was written entirely as evidence to settle a different argument back in the earlier HM threads. It just so happens that it also provides the counter-example to this argument. I don't see what's so obnoxious about it, nor why it makes you so angry.

[Farwynd of Seal Skin]

I haven't read through every single theory (and Whoresbane contextually makes a lot of sense), but I've still got a feeling it is Benjen Stark.

He is a STARK and the top Ranger in the Watch. My feeling is that, just as with Bran, he came to know Bloodraven and/or the Children of the Forest while being off the grid far north. He was aware of the approaching Winter and all that it would bring. Being made cognoscente of Bran's power and quest, he hastens back South of the wall at the advice of Bloodraven. Knowing that the shit is going to hit the fan, he leaves dragon glass where he knows a Stark Direwolf will uncover it, more or less accepting that having a Stark in Winterfell is more important to the fight against the Others than him joining his fellow men of the watch in their ranging. I'm sure this has probably been proven impossible many times over, but by God I like it!

[alienarea]

An option for the HM being Benjen could be that he accidentally discovered the the caves and tunnels of Grendel while ranging, maybe when hiding from the Others. If these end in the crypts of Winterfell he could be the HM without breaking his vows. It's far fetched, but more reasonable than the HM being the Blackfish, for example.

[And now that I think about it, it would make sense for Benjen who is used to snow to go ranging in Winterfell in the middle of a snowstorm].

[VaramyrSixchins]

You reference the very post (#83) in which I cite several examples from the text that are ambiguous. VaramyrSixchins rejected those. I could have cited several more examples, but what would the point have been? The response would likely have been the same. So I tried a different tactic.

The reality is that my position in this debate (that the text is ambiguous) is far easier to prove than VaramyrSixchins' position (that the text is completely unambiguous). All I need to do to disprove that statement is provide a counter-example. The link that's got you so upset is just that. A counter-example in which the HM is not angry and in which the reason for the laugh is not malicious. And (IMO) it still fits with the dialogue we're provided from Theon's perspective.

With all due respect, my friend, you DIDN'T cite examples from the text that were ambiguous. You cited what's in the text and argued that because there wasn't a certain punctuation mark, or "laughed" didn't have an adjective, it must be ambiguous. And I did reject that, because the text doesn't NEED those things to tell you what the HM's tone was. The actual things he said tells you what the tone was. And yes, I would've rejected your other "examples" if they were in the same vein as "the fact he didn't spit proves he wasn't angry". IMO your reasoning on this issue is silly, again with all due respect. And I do remain unconvinced by your made up out of whole cloth scenario with Davos that conforms to your "examples".

If you (and other posters) remain unconvinced of Theon=HM despite all the evidence (the uncharacteristically vague description, the fact Theon was himself wearing a hooded cloak, the time displacement, the 1st use of "kinslayer" coming after Theon's trip to the crypts where he acknowledges his Stark namesake and his desire to be one of the Starks, and the 1st use of "kinslayer" coming from the HM and not something Theon had to deal with being called by northmen prior to this, the willingness to remove his glove and show the HM his injuries when he's terrified to do it just one page later) then consider this:

pg 609

"It all seemed so familiar, like a mummer show that he had seen before. Only the mummers had changed. Roose Bolton was playing the part that Theon had played the last time round, and the dead men were playing the parts of Aggar, Gynir Rednose, and Gelmarr the Grim."

This is a completely inaccurate analogy. Recall that the three ironmen cited were NOT killed as part of a rebellion against the occupiers of WF, they were killed by Ramsay because they witnessed the Bran/Rickon deception. Theon executes a man for these murders that he knows full well to be innocent. A man named Farlen.

pg 612

"He was trapped here, with the ghosts. The ones he made himself, Mikken and Farlen, Gynir Rednose, Aggar, Gelmarr the Grim, the miller's wife..."

So what happened? What made Theon go from his denial-filled, strained, inaccurate analogy to acknowledging his responsibility in the deaths? What happened between pgs 609 and 612? He met the HM. The HM is simply his own hallucanitory manifestation of the guilt he feels for betraying the Starks and the events of his taking of WF. This hallucination calls him "kinslayer", makes him justify his own continued existence, and then forces him to ackowledge the truths of his actions and stop the revisionist history bullshit he was spouting just three pages earlier.

[Mulled Wino]

Gah! The Hooded Man is Whoresbane, I tell you! Re-read Reek's first chapter, where he is dragged from the dungeon and set before Ramsey, Karstark and Whoresbane. Whoresbane regards Theon with utter contempt, and asks why Ramsay has not yet killed him (how is it you still breathe?) - in other words, the same attitude the HM shows later towards Theon. The fact that Whoresbane has already seen him at his most degraded also explains why Theon has no compunction removing his glove and showing the HM his flayed fingers.

I think Whoresbane is conspiring with his brother Crowfood, who is encamped outside the walls, and he is returning from some pre-planned assignation when he encounters Theon. Is it beyond reason to think that the Brothers Umber might have laid some plans before they decided to split their allegiances? The only reason Whoresbane is with Bolton is because the GreatJon is being held hostage, so there's certainly no love lost there.

This really makes the most sense. Being theon is worthless......why would he now see himself? If he's so perceptive and he saw himself, ehy didnt he see an old man in a hooded cloak.

I really have to laugh at " evidence" that its theon because the man he saw had a hooded cloak on- in the middle of a horrific snowstorm. Lol

[Mulled Wino]

With all due respect, my friend, you DIDN'T cite examples from the text that were ambiguous. You cited what's in the text and argued that because there wasn't a certain punctuation mark, or "laughed" didn't have an adjective, it must be ambiguous. And I did reject that, because the text doesn't NEED those things to tell you what the HM's tone was. The actual things he said tells you what the tone was. And yes, I would've rejected your other "examples" if they were in the same vein as "the fact he didn't spit proves he wasn't angry". IMO your reasoning on this issue is silly, again with all due respect. And I do remain unconvinced by your made up out of whole cloth scenario with Davos that conforms to your "examples".

If you (and other posters) remain unconvinced of Theon=HM despite all the evidence (the uncharacteristically vague description, the fact Theon was himself wearing a hooded cloak, the time displacement, the 1st use of "kinslayer" coming after Theon's trip to the crypts where he acknowledges his Stark namesake and his desire to be one of the Starks, and the 1st use of "kinslayer" coming from the HM and not something Theon had to deal with being called by northmen prior to this, the willingness to remove his glove and show the HM his injuries when he's terrified to do it just one page later) then consider this:

pg 609

"It all seemed so familiar, like a mummer show that he had seen before. Only the mummers had changed. Roose Bolton was playing the part that Theon had played the last time round, and the dead men were playing the parts of Aggar, Gynir Rednose, and Gelmarr the Grim."

This is a completely inaccurate analogy. Recall that the three ironmen cited were NOT killed as part of a rebellion against the occupiers of WF, they were killed by Ramsay because they witnessed the Bran/Rickon deception. Theon executes a man for these murders that he knows full well to be innocent. A man named Farlen.

pg 612

"He was trapped here, with the ghosts. The ones he made himself, Mikken and Farlen, Gynir Rednose, Aggar, Gelmarr the Grim, the miller's wife..."

So what happened? What made Theon go from his denial-filled, strained, inaccurate analogy to acknowledging his responsibility in the deaths? What happened between pgs 609 and 612? He met the HM. The HM is simply his own hallucanitory manifestation of the guilt he feels for betraying the Starks and the events of his taking of WF. This hallucination calls him "kinslayer", makes him justify his own continued existence, and then forces him to ackowledge the truths of his actions and stop the revisionist history bullshit he was spouting just three pages earlier.

Not one bit of this is evidence. Especially the hooded cloak and showing his hand. What does "one page later" mean? It's a completely different situation.

The vague description one holds no water either. Hard to see someone with a hood on in a snowstorm.