Whores go to Bravos

[danm_999]

Lanna's pretty old AFAIR

14.

[Lummel]

...Is there a way on this forum to ignore single posters?...

Yes, link on the down arrow next to your name at the top right of the screen and choose 'manage ignore preferences' and you should be able to do it from there.

Lummel, assume that you thought that your wife was a whore...

Is your argument here that Tyrion is deluding himself or that his state of mind due to the extreme circumstances was such that he wasn't capable of thinking straight or something else?

[danm_999]

So just because he believe her to be a whore (from a very poor source) he can fuck her without her consent as long as he pays her afterwards.

I'm literally disgusted with your post and you. Is there a way on this forum to ignore single posters? I don't need to see rape supporters like you on this board or ever on anything.

It's easier when you make up people's positions for them.

[Ser Wun Wun]

• It fits the timeline roughly (and even if it didn't, Martin is notoriously bad with timelines. As I already pointed, Sam goes *back in time* at one point)
  

Sorry to take this off topic, but when does that happen exactly? I've read the books like 4 times now and I never noticed anything like that. I'm not that good with timelines either apparently. I should probably try to pay more attention and not read so fast :read:

[danm_999]

Is your argument here that Tyrion is deluding himself or that his state of mind due to the extreme circumstances was such that he wasn't capable of thinking straight or something else?

I think the argument here might be a plain reading of the text: Jaime told Tyrion that Tysha was a whore he hired because he wanted to help Tyrion lose his virginity.

We the reader don't know any better till Jaime spills the beans in ASoS.

[Castel]

So just because he believe her to be a whore (from a very poor source) he can fuck her without her consent as long as he pays her afterwards.

I'm literally disgusted with your post and you. Is there a way on this forum to ignore single posters? I don't need to see rape supporters like you on this board or ever on anything.

I'm literally flabbergasted. Are you trying to create some sort of fake outrage or are you obtuse?

Let me walk you through it just in case it's the latter/

Lummel claimed that because Tyrion said that his cock betrayed him, he knew he was raping Tysha:

I don't see how he couldn't have realised that it was rape, what with his father's guardsmen being involved and all, plus how in his own POV he says that his body betrayed him and he was able to carry out the deed -

which implys that he knew what he was doing was wrong.

I countered by saying that there were multiple reasons for him to feel disgusted that he couldn't prevent his arousal.

Lummel, assume that you thought that your wife was a whore, and had it proven to you by an entire barracks fucking her and her grasping the coins, now imagine that your father tried to get you to have sex with this whore that pretended to like and care about you but was only in it for money, that you once loved but had lied to you, now imagine knowing that a few dozen men had gone before you, imagine how much semen there must be, or the fact that your father is looking on, or hell, for that matter that you would be having sex with a whore (Tyrion was thirteen at this point, who knows how religious he was or how he felt about sex) or how disgusted you must feel at having your love shattered, now do you think that in your moment of anger and despair you wouldn't want to have sex? That you would think that you shouldn't be capable of it, and not want to give your father the satisfaction? If I was in this scenario, I would surely have thought that my cock betrayed me. The sheer number of things wrong in that scenario are ridiculous, why hone in on the only one that requires magical hindsight?

Then you posted a snarky comment about ... I honestly don't know what it was about:

Stop, do not pass go.

If we're making things up, I always assumed that Tyrion thought Tysha was a young dragon, what with the only eating roasted meat.

Seriously I have no idea what this is.

I then asked you where I made something up, and where Tyrion didn't think that she was a whore.

You then respond by labelling me a rape supporter. What the fuck?

The point I was making was simple, that Tyrion thought that she had been paid to sleep with the men and had no problem with it (y'know, the way that whores sometimes do even in today's society, some do have sex with more than a few people at the same time). We know that she was raped because she wasn't a whore and didn't consent to having sex with those men for money, but Tyrion obviously didn't at the time, so as far as he was concerned he was paying for sex, not raping someone. Hell, someone called me out on claiming that she wasn't raped and I pointed out that she was right, that Tyrion did rape her, but he personally didn't know it was rape.

Please show me where in this chain of logic I called for the support of rape.

[Thallus]

Yes, link on the down arrow next to your name at the top right of the screen and choose 'manage ignore preferences' and you should be able to do it from there.

Thanks, a rape supporter ignored!

It's easier when you make up people's positions for them.

It was the natural extension, without leaps, from what Castel said.

Tyrion was specifically told by Tywin that Tysha was a whore and it was all a ruse.

Talking about him fucking her with all the guards.

aka she can get gangbanged because she was profesionally a whore.

[Castel]

Is your argument here that Tyrion is deluding himself or that his state of mind due to the extreme circumstances was such that he wasn't capable of thinking straight or something else?

No, my argument was that claiming that he knew that he raped Tysha because he got aroused when he knew he shouldn't have was a bad argument, there are plenty of reasons why he shouldn't have been aroused as far as he was concerned. Some of which I listed. None of those reasons required him to think or know that Tysha was being raped.

[danm_999]

It was the natural extension, without leaps, from what Castel said.

Err, no it wasn't.

He said Tyrion didn't know Tysha had been raped because he had been told she was a whore (who, you know, generally have sex for pay).

Pointing that out doesn't make someone a rape supporter.

Talking about him fucking her with all the guards.

aka she can get gangbanged because she was profesionally a whore.

Which means from Tyrion's perspective, he has no reason to think it's rape.

Somehow you take someone pointing that out and translate it into "rape is okay", which is just ridiculous.

[Pellaeon]

Peasants and/or whores don't have doweries.

Are you sure about that? In the most medieval societys even peasants had doweries and nobody know who she was, she was kick out of CR and maybe find a man she was able to love, I personally believe that, so when Tyrion find her she will be happy and he devastated

[David Selig]

I'm literally flabbergasted. Are you trying to create some sort of fake outrage or are you obtuse?

Let me walk you through it just in case it's the latter/

Lummel claimed that because Tyrion said that his cock betrayed him, he knew he was raping Tysha:

I countered by saying that there were multiple reasons for him to feel disgusted that he couldn't prevent his arousal.

Then you posted a snarky comment about ... I honestly don't know what it was about:

Seriously I have no idea what this is.

I then asked you where I made something up, and where Tyrion didn't think that she was a whore.

You then respond by labelling me a rape supporter. What the fuck?

The point I was making was simple, that Tyrion thought that she had been paid to sleep with the men and had no problem with it (y'know, the way that whores sometimes do even in today's society, some do have sex with more than a few people at the same time). We know that she was raped because she wasn't a whore and didn't consent to having sex with those men for money, but Tyrion obviously didn't at the time, so as far as he was concerned he was paying for sex, not raping someone. Hell, someone called me out on claiming that she wasn't raped and I pointed out that she was right, that Tyrion did rape her, but he personally didn't know it was rape.

Tysha was a virgin two weeks ago and Tyrion knew it. She was also 13 or 14. How incredibly stupid do you think Tyrion should be not to realise she was raped when a whole barrack of soldiers had sex with her right before his eyes? Prostitutes can get raped too, you know - just because Tyion thought Tysha was a whore, there was no way for him to realise she was raped.

[danm_999]

Tysha was a virgin two weeks ago and Tyrion knew it. She was also 13 or 14. How incredibly stupid do you think Tyrion should be not to realise she was raped when a whole barrack of soldiers had sex with her right before his eyes? Prostitutes can get raped too, you know - just because Tyion thought Tysha was a whore, there was no way for him to realise she was raped.

He was a pretty stupid 13 year old then because his POV gives no indication of him thinking she was raped until Jaime revealed she wasn't a whore.

[Thallus]

Are you sure about that? In the most medieval societys even peasants had doweries and nobody know who she was, she was kick out of CR and maybe find a man she was able to love, I personally believe that, so when Tyrion find her she will be happy and he devastated

I'm not, its a point. But I would less believe the poor have dowries than the rich, from what I know of the Indian Caste System. A weak comparison, but its what I have :(

Even if she had a dowry, would 14 YO who had collected the cash she had have a dowry, given that it was her, SHAMED, money and not her parents/family's?

I've oft thought that "where whores go" was a synonymous phrase to "who gives a fuck", not a point to a real place.

[Lummel]

...The point I was making was simple, that Tyrion thought that she had been paid to sleep with the men and had no problem with it (y'know, the way that whores sometimes do even in today's society, some do have sex with more than a few people at the same time). We know that she was raped because she wasn't a whore and didn't consent to having sex with those men for money, but Tyrion obviously didn't at the time, so as far as he was concerned he was paying for sex, not raping someone...

From Tyrion's perspective in hindsight I can't see how anybody could imagine that it was just a standard commercial transaction, but your mileage may vary.

In any case for that amongst other reasons I'm more inclined to believe that the Sailor's Wife could be Gerion's wife/paramour/long term companion abandoned on his away to Valyria.

[Castel]

Tysha was a virgin two weeks ago and Tyrion knew it. She was also 13 or 14. How incredibly stupid do you think Tyrion should be not to realise she was raped when a whole barrack of soldiers had sex with her right before his eyes? Prostitutes can get raped too, you know - just because Tyion thought Tysha was a whore, there was no way for him to realise she was raped.

In the Feast prologue we see that whores can save up their maidenhood to sell for a high price, and the girl in that prologue wasn't much older than Tysha if I recall. Tyrion probably assumed that that is what happened here, I mean, he is a Lannister, if Jaime wanted to make it authentic that's exactly what he would have done. Being a whore doesn't necessarily mean that you worked in a brothel for a few years or whatever.

And I guess where you and I move apart is when you claim that Tyrion should have known by seeing a whole bunch of people have sex with her. I'm sorry but how is he supposed to figure it out from that? He thinks she's a whore, someone who makes money off sex., sure some people shy away from group sex but even in today's less desperate times people do have it for money. Why would he automatically assume that a whore being paid a silver per man (I'm not that knowledgeable in the currency of Westeros but that seems like a lot of money) was being raped? His POV certainly doesn't mention any screams of pain or begging or crying. Not that that means she wasn't raped.

Yes, thank you, I'm aware that prostitutes can get raped, something that someone needs to point out to me every ten seconds.

[Thallus]

He was a pretty stupid 13 year old then because his POV gives no indication of him thinking she was raped until Jaime revealed she wasn't a whore.

No, he thought she was raped the whole time, but when she was a whore it was less destructive to him. An innocent who loved him getting destroyed is less painful than a call girl who acted loving him getting destroyed.

Tysha was raped in both instances, but the effect of a whore getting brutalized and the one girl to like him for him getting brutalized are VASTLY different in the mind of Tyrion.

[Winter's Knight]

It is strange how Tyrion never mentions/talks about how Tysha was acting/behving during her ordeal.

[Pellaeon]

No, he thought she was raped the whole time, but when she was a whore it was less destructive to him. An innocent who loved him getting destroyed is less painful than a call girl who acted loving him getting destroyed.

Tysha was raped in both instances, but the effect of a whore getting brutalized and the one girl to like him for him getting brutalized are VASTLY different in the mind of Tyrion.

:agree: And we shoudn't forget, Tyrion believed Tysha fooled him the hole time, never love him etc.

[danm_999]

No, he thought she was raped the whole time, but when she was a whore it was less destructive to him.

No, he didn't. Here's how he described it in AGoT:

Lord Tywin brought my wife in and gave her to his guards. They paid her fair enough. A silver for each man, how many whores command that high a price? He sat me down in the corner of the barracks and bade me

watch, and at the end she had so many silvers the coins were slipping through her fingers and rolling on the floor, she …” The smoke was stinging his eyes. Tyrion cleared his throat and turned away from the fire, to gaze out into darkness. “Lord Tywin had me go last,” he said in a quiet voice. “And he gave me a gold coin to pay her, because I was a Lannister, and worth more.”

That's it. That's the whole incident recounted by Tyrion. Absolutely no indication he thought it was rape. After he finds out she wasn't a whore in ADWD though:

It reminded him of how Tysha would riffle his hair during the false spring of their marriage, before he helped his father’s guardsmen rape her. He had been thinking of those guardsmen during his flight, trying to recall how many there had been.

He only uses the word rape, or even thinks about the nature of her consent, once he's found out she wasn't a whore.

An innocent who loved him getting destroyed is less painful than a call girl who acted loving him getting destroyed.

Tysha was raped in both instances, but the effect of a whore getting brutalized and the one girl to like him for him getting brutalized are VASTLY different in the mind of Tyrion.

Which is why he kills Tywin when he finds out, because it's the first time he realises that both his guards and he raped her.

[danm_999]

In the Feast prologue we see that whores can save up their maidenhood to sell for a high price, and the girl in that prologue wasn't much older than Tysha if I recall. Tyrion probably assumed that that is what happened here, I mean, he is a Lannister, if Jaime wanted to make it authentic that's exactly what he would have done. Being a whore doesn't necessarily mean that you worked in a brothel for a few years or whatever.

He says Jaime told him that he paid double for a virgin.