frodostark Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Dude, or dumbfuck, what ever you prefer.C'mon, really?I just don't think we are ever going to find common ground on anything by OSC ever.So, um, lets see. How bout dat Goodkind fella?Don't we all pretty much agree that the new Card stuff doesn't look too good and that he seems to have gone well past any semblance of good or influential writing? Boom, common ground! :)Re: Goodkind, I'm guessing he respected the sci/fi fans a little more after Law of Nines bombed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarius Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Yeah, if you don't think Hamlet's Father is homophobic, I don't even know.It's anti-boy-raper -- that isn't the same thing as being homophobic. Remember, the king is specifically NOT interested in adult men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarius Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Don't we all pretty much agree that the new Card stuff doesn't look too good and that he seems to have gone well past any semblance of good or influential writing? Boom, common ground! :)I haven't read all of his most recent books, but I liked Ender in Exile very much and I kinda liked Magic Street. OTOH, I didn't especially care for Pathfinder. IMHO his overall quality has definitely dropped, but he can still put out some good stuff every now and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grack21 Posted June 2, 2012 Author Share Posted June 2, 2012 The whole thing, in my view, seemed to imply that being gay is purely a result of being molested as a child. AS in, gay people are that way because they were molested. In fact, I think Card may have said exactly those words in an interview, but don't hold me to that one.I know there is a part in one of the later Bean books where a character "decides" to "stop being gay" because the most important thing in the world is to make babies. I'll let you interpret that one.C'mon, really?Don't we all pretty much agree that the new Card stuff doesn't look too good and that he seems to have gone well past any semblance of good or influential writing? Boom, common ground! :)Re: Goodkind, I'm guessing he respected the sci/fi fans a little more after Law of Nines bombed...Well, I haven't liked anything Card has done since the mid 80s, and my thoughts on Ender's Game are not....hmmm..positive. Exactly when he turned to shit seems to be a matter of...debate.Yeah, Goodkind wasn't happy in what sections Law of Nines got shelved. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grack21 Posted June 2, 2012 Author Share Posted June 2, 2012 Is Ender in Exile the one where the evil liberals try to stop him from filing his taxes? I think that is based on an old old novella anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodostark Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 It's anti-boy-raper -- that isn't the same thing as being homophobic. Remember, the king is specifically NOT interested in adult men.I don't know why, but the more we talk about this story, the stupider it sounds...not bigoted, just really, really stupid.I haven't read all of his most recent books, but I liked Ender in Exile very much and I kinda liked Magic Street. OTOH, I didn't especially care for Pathfinder. IMHO his overall quality has definitely dropped, but he can still put out some good stuff every now and then.I've only read Ender's Game, but it feels a little sad that he keeps doing other projects and then popping out another Enderverse book...somehow doesn't feel natural, like Bujold and her Vorkosigan stuff, more like tapping into the well one more time in hopes it isn't dry.And now that you mention Pathfinder, it does seem like it got some okay reviews...I'm more thinking of the constant Ender sequels and Empire (which also had a sequel, yes?). Even as a right-winger myself, Empire just sounded embarassing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grack21 Posted June 2, 2012 Author Share Posted June 2, 2012 Yeah, found the quote from the interview:Card has voiced his opinion that paraphilia and homosexuality are sometimes linked. In a 2004 essay entitled "Homosexual 'Marriage' and Civilization", Card wrote:The dark secret of homosexual society -- the one that dares not speak its name -- is how many homosexuals first entered into that world through a disturbing seduction or rape or molestation or abuse, and how many of them yearn to get out of the homosexual community and live normally.[30] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarius Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Dude, or dumbfuck, what ever you prefer.Awww, look, she cares about my preferences, how sweet.That'll be "Queen of the Universe" to you, snookums.That's the same shit I'm saying here. People should not read books by authors they dispose. Fuck no they shouldn't. I've never disposed of an author, myself. How do you go about it?Also, doesn't the book end with Hamlet going to hell (because he is gay) to be raped by his pedophile dad for eternity? Like all gay guys deserve?That's your imagination, not Card's writing. Hamlet does go to hell -- but it's not even clear that he's gay, much less that it has anything to do with why he's going to hell. Also: 1. nothing at all bad happens to either Rosencrantz or Guildenstern, even though they ARE gay; 2. Horatio survives and is called the last good man, even though he had a pedophilic impulse himself; and 3. Laertes, Polonius, and Claudius are all killed, even though none of them were gay. So there's nothing saying that gay men in particular deserve Bad Endings, more than anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarius Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Yeah, found the quote from the interview:Card has voiced his opinion that paraphilia and homosexuality are sometimes linked. In a 2004 essay entitled "Homosexual 'Marriage' and Civilization", Card wrote:The dark secret of homosexual society -- the one that dares not speak its name -- is how many homosexuals first entered into that world through a disturbing seduction or rape or molestation or abuse, and how many of them yearn to get out of the homosexual community and live normally.[30]Yeah, I believe he actually recanted that statement later. But being silly about how homosexuality arises isn't the same thing as being homophobic, in any case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarius Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 And now that you mention Pathfinder, it does seem like it got some okay reviews...I'm more thinking of the constant Ender sequels and Empire (which also had a sequel, yes?). Even as a right-winger myself, Empire just sounded embarassing.Oh yeah, I did read Empire. It was fairly bad. Didn't read the sequel. I don't think I've read all the Shadow books, either. I enjoyed the first one, got tired of the subsequent ones. He's got a new one coming out, dunno if I'll read that one or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grack21 Posted June 2, 2012 Author Share Posted June 2, 2012 Yeah, I believe he actually recanted that statement later. But being silly about how homosexuality arises isn't the same thing as being homophobic, in any case.Your definition of homophobia is different than mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Your definition of homophobia is different than mine.I actually think his definition is different than the rest of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarius Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Your definition of homophobia is different than mine.Well, my definition involves condemning adult people who have sex with other consenting adult people of the same gender. That doesn't happen in "Hamlet's Father". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarius Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I actually think his definition is different than the rest of the world.Petunia! You came back!So -- define "homophobia" for us, honeychile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 This is sort of a no-win argument at this point, no?On the one hand, not buying anything if your politics don't mesh with the author means authors will only speak on a subject when they feel its safe. This isn't really a good thing IMO.On the other hand, I find the idea of financially supporting authors whose opinions viscerally disgust me to problematic.Then there are authors whom I disagree with who, AFIAK, are not so morally reprehensible to me that I'll judge things on their works.Really it seems its up to the individual to decide what they will and will not purchase. I'd only condemn someone for buying an authors books if one could prove the author was funding some reprehensible organization with their bank accounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodostark Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Yeah, found the quote from the interview:Card has voiced his opinion that paraphilia and homosexuality are sometimes linked. In a 2004 essay entitled "Homosexual 'Marriage' and Civilization", Card wrote:The dark secret of homosexual society -- the one that dares not speak its name -- is how many homosexuals first entered into that world through a disturbing seduction or rape or molestation or abuse, and how many of them yearn to get out of the homosexual community and live normally.[30]Yeah, I believe he actually recanted that statement later. But being silly about how homosexuality arises isn't the same thing as being homophobic, in any case.Your definition of homophobia is different than mine.I don't see how that Card quote is homophobic (we know, we know, Precious...it's because we iss homophobes ourselves), either. There are, factually, people who have lived as homosexuals and then changed their "lifestyle" (for lack of a better term, no loaded expression intended) and lived as heterosexuals. There are also, factually, homosexual people who were abused in their youth. What that proportion is, I have no idea, though Card seems to think it's a larger number. Personally, I'd be curious to see some study of that, as I suspect environment has a lot to do with how our sexuality evolves and manifests. Somehow, I don't think anyone will be touching that with a ten hundred foot pole, though...Anyways, those statements don't seem malicious or derogatory. Card seems dubious of homosexuality, not hateful. Discussing the origins of something does not cross the line to bigotry, in my opinion.Edited to add the obvious which should probably be stated anyway: there are also a lot of heterosexuals who have been abused in their youth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grack21 Posted June 2, 2012 Author Share Posted June 2, 2012 Anyways, those statements don't seem malicious or derogatory. Card seems dubious of homosexuality, not hateful. :bs: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarius Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 On the one hand, not buying anything if your politics don't mesh with the author means authors will only speak on a subject when they feel its safe. This isn't really a good thing IMO.On the other hand, I find the idea of financially supporting authors whose opinions viscerally disgust me to problematic.Then there are authors whom I disagree with who, AFIAK, are not so morally reprehensible to me that I'll judge things on their works.If the specific work I am being asked to purchase contains material that I think of as reprehensible, then I'm very unlikely to buy it.OTOH, if an author has some reprehensible views -- but the work I'm being asked to purchase does NOT espouse those views -- then I am very likely to overlook his personal politics. That takes us all the way back to the argument that "I'm not going to waste my time researching every author I write just to make sure I agree with all their beliefs."Also, you can additionally see it as rewarding that author for NON-objectionable activities (writing the book that does NOT contain their reprehensible views). If OSC writes a book with screaming homophobia that does NOT get bought, and then writes another book without the homophobia that DOES get bought, which is he likely to repeat in the future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarius Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Anyways, those statements don't seem malicious or derogatory. Card seems dubious of homosexuality, not hateful. Discussing the origins of something does not cross the line to bigotry, in my opinion.In real life, Card is most definitely homophobic. But, again, being silly about the origins of homosexuality is not homophobic in and of itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grack21 Posted June 2, 2012 Author Share Posted June 2, 2012 This is sort of a no-win argument at this point, no?On the one hand, not buying anything if your politics don't mesh with the author means authors will only speak on a subject when they feel its safe. This isn't really a good thing IMO.On the other hand, I find the idea of financially supporting authors whose opinions viscerally disgust me to problematic.Then there are authors whom I disagree with who, AFIAK, are not so morally reprehensible to me that I'll judge things on their works.Really it seems its up to the individual to decide what they will and will not purchase. I'd only condemn someone for buying an authors books if one could prove the author was funding some reprehensible organization with their bank accounts.Actually, I'm pretty sure Card does fund an organization that is reprehensible. Lemme look into that.And its not politics that bother me. If you think my beef with Card is about politics, you have a wide definition of politics.The guy has literally said that gay people are a danger to society. That's some pretty dangerous shit right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.