The Faith of the Seven

[straits]

I still think that the best argument for gods (any, but R'hllor in particular) in the series is the existence of supernatural cognition - rather than making things happen through destruction or construction, you see the future.

It's outside the loop of conventional magic because knowing what will happen (or the interpreted outline of it) implies an entity greater than mankind making things happen.

[armidil0]

I think that warging, greenseeing, and having the CotF on your side would have been a pretty big gun. And when comparing technologies that the Andals had, it was Steel. That's the only thing I could find that they mention more than once that the Andals had over the FM. Better weapons, better armor. But not so much better if the other people have magic. Not so much better if the other people take your weapons, take your armor off the fallen knights, and used it themselves.

I'm not a weaponsmith. If someone knows the real difference between iron and steel, and how that can make a difference please speak up.

[The Other Others]

I think that warging, greenseeing, and having the CotF on your side would have been a pretty big gun. And when comparing technologies that the Andals had, it was Steel. That's the only thing I could find that they mention more than once that the Andals had over the FM. Better weapons, better armor. But not so much better if the other people have magic. Not so much better if the other people take your weapons, take your armor off the fallen knights, and used it themselves.

I'm not a weaponsmith. If someone knows the real difference between iron and steel, and how that can make a difference please speak up.

Steel is tougher and more durable than iron, but it wouldn't give much of a advantage. But did the First Men have horses? Cavalry would have given the Andals the advantage they needed.

[straits]

I'm not a weaponsmith. If someone knows the real difference between iron and steel, and how that can make a difference please speak up.

Iron is harder and tends to undergo catastrophic failure (break) rather than deform, and is more prone to being chipped. Steel lasts longer and rusts less. Easier to maintain. Similar strengths.

[armidil0]

Thanks all! No, the Andals might have had cavalry, but I highly doubt it since they came from the sea, and that would have been tough to carry over. The FM, by chance, did have cavalry. It was stated that they came from the arm of Dorne on horses. It's even speculated (once) that they were ancestors of the Dothraki.

And with the info I got on Steel and iron, I'm making the assumption that steel wouldn't have made a HUGE difference, but a little one anyway.

[The Other Others]

Thanks all! No, the Andals might have had cavalry, but I highly doubt it since they came from the sea, and that would have been tough to carry over. The FM, by chance, did have cavalry. It was stated that they came from the arm of Dorne on horses. It's even speculated (once) that they were ancestors of the Dothraki.

And with the info I got on Steel and iron, I'm making the assumption that steel wouldn't have made a HUGE difference, but a little one anyway.

There's a big difference between a knight and a mounted warrior though.

[armidil0]

There's a big difference between a knight and a mounted warrior though.

Who would win, a knight or a mounted warrior? I would give it to the Mounted warrior, as the dothraki prove that even mostly unarmored, they can still be a killer if organized (which the FM were, atleast on a seperate House level).

[cuendillar]

There's a big difference between a knight and a mounted warrior though.

Yup, the warrior is the better fighter. If you're a warrior by culture/profession, you're either good or dead. Becoming a knight in Westeros doesn't take nearly as much - Lancel got there by keeping the king drunk enough to let a boar kill him. Not everyone with the ability to grant a knighthood request a particularly high standard of fighting or honour.

[The Other Others]

Yes, but the Dothraki would lose against armoured troops as arakahs are useless against steel armour.

The wiki, as unreliable as it can be, states that the Andals conquered Westeros over a period of hundreds of years. This is before the cultural degradation of the knight, where they actually had to fight proper enemies.

[armidil0]

But the FM wouldn't be using arakhs like the Dothraki, probably just swords and spears, which can be useful against steel.

[OberynBlackfyre]

I think that the Seven could be real, but not in the sense that R'hllor is. Plus, we can't even say that R'hllor himself is real...the people who believe in him COULD just be enacting magic due to their own prowess.....plus, as Thoros had said "the old ways have been awaken", and as many others have said, magic is attributed to Dragons being alive in the world again, so wouldn't that kind of make dragons gods?

[armidil0]

I think that the Seven could be real, but not in the sense that R'hllor is. Plus, we can't even say that R'hllor himself is real...the people who believe in him COULD just be enacting magic due to their own prowess.....plus, as Thoros had said "the old ways have been awaken", and as many others have said, magic is attributed to Dragons being alive in the world again, so wouldn't that kind of make dragons gods?

Whoah, that's a whole other can of worms. I'm not saying that gods exist, just that the faith had help from some magic when conquering westeros. The dragons could have been born because of magic returning, and not vice versa. There are arguments both ways. You could also say that the Others brought back magic to the world, since we saw them before the dragons hatched.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Whoah, that's a whole other can of worms. I'm not saying that gods exist, just that the faith had help from some magic when conquering westeros. The dragons could have been born because of magic returning, and not vice versa. There are arguments both ways. You could also say that the Others brought back magic to the world, since we saw them before the dragons hatched.

well, that's exactly what I mean. I think Gods are more figures for people to believe in, rather than actual beings who are magical and "bless" people. We know that the dragons hatching was a "One time miracle event", (directly quoted by GRRM) so the magic to hatch them had to come from somewhere to, but that magic could also just be the "destiny" of Daenerys. What we do know is that the dragons are kind of like the batteries to which magic work, which is why I am saying that they are in a sense the gods, as the greenseers are kind of like the gods of COTF and such.

[Veltigar]

The FM still used bronze weapons and the Andals already had Iron weapons (that's a big deal when you look at the Dorian invasion of Greece, where GRRM found the inspiration for the whole FM-Andal-Rhoynar thing). The Andals were fanatical and desperate to get away from Valyria.

When they first landed they were probably something like the sea peoples combined with the Saxons led by Hengist and Horsa. They were large in number and lead by a central command (The Faith, which would at that time be like the Catholic Church at the hight of her power and fanaticism), in the beginning they probably settled on the lands of some of the Kings, forging alliances with them and than slowly taking over the power, gradually pushing them back. After a while they would have had enough land for them to fight among themselves, which stopped their conquest and gave the FM the chance to keep some of their ancient holdings.

I think the biggest clue for this theory is the tomb of King Tristifer IV Mudd who is basicly Westeros' version of King Arthur (Giving hope to the native FM and winning al his battles except for one, the warhammer he was associated with mimecking Excalibur, the mighty castle of Oldstones mimecking Camelot,...)

[pinkie10]

I'd love it though if the "Seven" or their avatars ended up being the real heroes who saved Westeros.

All the readers are looking to find Azor Ahai, The PTWP, The Stallion that mounts the World, the 3 heads of the dragon etc. But what if Martin decides to never unveil any of those and the heroes end up being:

The Father - Representing justice: Stannis Baratheon

The Mother - Representing motherhood and nurturing: Dany Targaryen

The Warrior - Representing courage and strength in battle: Jon Snow

The Maiden - Representing Innocence and chastity: Sansa Stark

The Smith - Representing crafts and labour: Gendry of the Hollow Hill

The Crone - Representing wisdom: The one character that I can't identify at the moment, maybe Melisandre

The Stranger - Representing death and the unknown: Bran or Arya Stark

This was my same thought. I haven't been able to find anything about this anywhere else. I was thinking that all of the other "religions" meant something or had some magical powers behind them except the Faith of the Seven. Then I was trying to piece together what the Seven could possibly represent. I first thought the Starks, or maybe the final small council members once prophecies are fulfilled. But the idea you have of the major players (could still possibly be the final small council) is quite brilliant. Couldn't we perhaps say Bran representing Wisdom? I think your other assignments are spot on.

Glad someone is on the same page.

[Roadside Rose]

Had this post on the Seven Guiding Arya