Stannis and Tywin?

[Cairo]

About a year late to the discussion.

I really don't get all the Tywin worship. Tywin had to raise the might of the Westerlands to take out 2 families. Ruthless, yes. But not exactly a great military accomplishment. I will give him credit for running the kingdoms well while he was Hand of the King, but that was a relatively peaceful period. His one campaign as Hand was the siege of Duskendale, but that took more than 6 months to free the King.

[PrimeRhaegar]

are you talking about the reader's not giving respect cause i remember stanny getting mad props through series. Hell varys and everyone makes it clear what you happen if stannis take KL and hell everyone was terrified of it. Still i guess it's because tywin was running the kingdom for 20 years and stannis was kinda just holing it together with jon arryn makes people say tywin, experience and all you know.

[Arya kiddin']

There is a large difference between what could've been and what is. Tywin's prowess as a leader is well known. He was hand of the king, Lord of the rock, Warden of the west. Then there are Reynes and Tarbecks, his father's whore etc. All stannis has done his life is to be a lord of an island in the middle of nowhere.

[Stannis Iron Baratheon]

Tywin was Hand for 20 years, Stannis wasn't.

Stannis and Jon Arryn helped rule the kingdom together.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

Tywin is a complete piece of shit.

Stannis is ruthless but he's never been cruel.

In fact, I'm not sure how Tywin is supposedly more likeable than Stannis.

Tywin mislikes laughter and I've never seen the guy crack a joke in my life. If anything Tywin is more of a bore than Stannis.

Stannis at least makes witty remarks.

[Tetrarch42]

Yeah, I think the "Stannis never smiles" idea comes from the show mostly. Stannis seems to smile and laugh (even if sarcastically) pretty often in the books.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

Huh, I thought that was from the books and it's false either way.

Stannis smiles evilly at the last episode on the show.

^Stannis intentionally murdering Renly was also from the show, but it seems to have made its way on here. I get a little sick of explaining to people that Stannis doesn't even know his life force was used to kill Renly.

[Heyo Winter Comin']

Huh, I thought that was from the books and it's false either way.

Stannis smiles evilly at the last episode on the show.

^Stannis intentionally murdering Renly was also from the show, but it seems to have made its way on here. I get a little sick of explaining to people that Stannis doesn't even know his life force was used to kill Renly.

“Renly offered me a peach. At our parley. Mocked me, defied me, threatened me, and offered me a peach. I thought he was drawing a blade and went for mine own. Was that his purpose, to make me show fear? Or was it one of his pointless jests? When he spoke of how sweet the peach was, did his words have some hidden meaning?” [The king gave a shake of the head, like a dog shaking a rabbit to snap its neck.] “Only Renly could vex me with a piece of fruit. He brought his doom on himself with his treason, but I did love him, Davos. I know that now. I swear, I will go to my grave thinking of my brother’s peach.”

Seems pretty aware. And pretty sad about it.

[Bronn Urgandy]

I'd say the only unforgivable act that the shows done to Stannis is the season 3 finale, "cart before the horse" must not become "because I am the lord of light."

Any accounts of soldiers charging into battle shouting "Tywin! Tywin! TYWIN!"?

Stannis' major downfall is the contempt he treats his lords, while hilarious to the reader, loyalty in them it does not breed. He does have the confidence and belief of the common soldier, which is why he keeps on soldiering, his in world reputation is greater than Tywins and maybe on par with Roberts, it is only Stannis who cant see that.

If he wins his next two battles though, even the young wolfs reputation in the North shouldnt be able to touch him.

[complexphoenix]

Stannis and Tywin are "both bungholes who think they're too noble to shit" according to Walder Frey. Both of them assume the worst about other people and never give anyone the benefit of a doubt unless the person is powerful enough to force them to. Both pay through the nose for it. Tywin is killed because he assumed the worst about Tysha and had her slandered and gang raped, and Stannis gets to freeze his ass off trying to scrape up the support of the badly-weakened North because he assumed the worst about Robb after he was declared King in the North and didn't ally with him when he had the chance, instead preferring to kill him with sorcery without having ever even met him.

[Antler's Fury]

Stannis would have found Tywin's overseeing the brutal rape of Tysha to be unacceptable. He probably also would have taken issue with the extermination of the Reynes and Tarbecks.

[E-Ro]

I hate having to be the person to break this to people, but the leeches did absolutely nothing to anyone. Robb was going to die anyway.

[complexphoenix]

I hate having to be the person to break this to people, but the leeches did absolutely nothing to anyone. Robb was going to die anyway.

If it was only one person I could believe that, but three? The fact that all three of the people who were named died shortly after the leeches were burned doesn't seem likely to be a coincidence. It was much subtler magic than the killing of Renly, but magic it was.

It took a lot of missteps and bad luck to kill Robb. If even a couple of little things had gone down differently he might have survived. Stannis' vile sorcery cut off his chances.

[Antler's Fury]

If it was only one person I could believe that, but three? The fact that all three of the people who were named died shortly after the leeches were burned doesn't seem likely to be a coincidence. It was much subtler magic than the killing of Renly, but magic it was.

Correlation does not equal causation. Simply because people die after leeches are burned does not mean that the leeches caused the deaths. Indeed, leech deaths, it seems, are indistinguishable from normal deaths, which makes it impossibe to firmly declare something a leech death.

It took a lot of missteps and bad luck to kill Robb. If even a couple of little things had gone down differently he might have survived. Stannis' vile sorcery cut off his chances.

Surely the very fact that it took a lot of missteps and bad luck to kill Robb means that Robb's death was due to his own poor decisions and not to a magic leech?

[E-Ro]

If it was only one person I could believe that, but three? The fact that all three of the people who were named died shortly after the leeches were burned doesn't seem likely to be a coincidence. It was much subtler magic than the killing of Renly, but magic it was.

It took a lot of missteps and bad luck to kill Robb. If even a couple of little things had gone down differently he might have survived. Stannis' vile sorcery cut off his chances.

Brah mel had seen all of those people dying in her fires, she used that to make herself look more powerful by tricking Stannis into thinking it was her.

Answer this, if mel can kill anyone with just a leech, why arent tommen, myrcella, cersei, and mace tyrell dead?

[TheMysteriousOne]

Stannis over Tywin, any day and every day. And as most people should know, I ain't a Stannis fan.

[EstEst]

Stannis and Tywin are "both bungholes who think they're too noble to shit" according to Walder Frey. Both of them assume the worst about other people and never give anyone the benefit of a doubt unless the person is powerful enough to force them to. Both pay through the nose for it. Tywin is killed because he assumed the worst about Tysha and had her slandered and gang raped, and Stannis gets to freeze his ass off trying to scrape up the support of the badly-weakened North because he assumed the worst about Robb after he was declared King in the North and didn't ally with him when he had the chance, instead preferring to kill him with sorcery without having ever even met him.

Hmm, were the other guests from Red Wedding killed by Stannis too? I don't remember him burning a hundred leeches. or chanting "Renly, Joffrey, Robb plus a hundred of his men. Oh, and his mother for a good number."

[Antler's Fury]

Stannis and Tywin are "both bungholes who think they're too noble to shit" according to Walder Frey. Both of them assume the worst about other people and never give anyone the benefit of a doubt unless the person is powerful enough to force them to.

Stannis respects Davos, Ned, Jon Arryn, and Aegon I, and none of these people forced him into it.

Both pay through the nose for it. Tywin is killed because he assumed the worst about Tysha and had her slandered and gang raped, and Stannis gets to freeze his ass off trying to scrape up the support of the badly-weakened North because he assumed the worst about Robb after he was declared King in the North and didn't ally with him when he had the chance, instead preferring to kill him with sorcery without having ever even met him.

How exactly is Tywin's allowing the brutal gang rape of Tysha to shame his son in any way equivalent to Stannis freezing his ass off to rebuild the remnants of Robb's forces and trying to reclaim Robb's castle for Robb's family? It was Robb who refused to ally with Stannis when he had the chance. Stannis refused to ally with Robb because Robb was going to take half his kingdom. What reason did Robb have to not ally with Stannis once Renly was dead? The responsibility for Robb's death lies in the poor choices made by him and Cat, not on Stannis' leech.

[complexphoenix]

Stannis respects Davos, Ned, Jon Arryn, and Aegon I, and none of these people forced him into it.

How exactly is Tywin's allowing the brutal gang rape of Tysha to shame his son in any way equivalent to Stannis freezing his ass off to rebuild the remnants of Robb's forces and trying to reclaim Robb's castle for Robb's family? It was Robb who refused to ally with Stannis when he had the chance. Stannis refused to ally with Robb because Robb was going to take half his kingdom. What reason did Robb have to not ally with Stannis once Renly was dead? The responsibility for Robb's death lies in the poor choices made by him and Cat, not on Stannis' leech.

Robb *did* move to ally with Stannis after Renly died. He invaded the Westerlands to draw Tywin away from King's Landing so it would be underdefended and ripe for Stannis' taking. Once Stannis had taken KL he planned to make peace.

Stannis assumed that Robb wouldn't bend the knee and never even asked Robb if he'd be willing to make alliance, he just assumed the worst once he heard the words "King in the North". And whether the leech actually killed Robb or not, Stannis clearly intended it to, when he threw it in the fire. For purposes of this thread, intent is what matters.

If Stannis had just communicated with Robb and gotten a clear idea of where he actually stood and what he was willing to do, he would have found Robb quite willing to back his claim. With better coordination of their armies, they would have won.

[Antler's Fury]

Robb *did* move to ally with Stannis after Renly died. He invaded the Westerlands to draw Tywin away from King's Landing so it would be underdefended and ripe for Stannis' taking. Once Stannis had taken KL he planned to make peace.

Stannis assumed that Robb wouldn't bend the knee and never even asked Robb if he'd be willing to make alliance, he just assumed the worst once he heard the words "King in the North". And whether the leech actually killed Robb or not, Stannis clearly intended it to, when he threw it in the fire. For purposes of this thread, intent is what matters.

If Stannis had just communicated with Robb and gotten a clear idea of where he actually stood and what he was willing to do, he would have found Robb quite willing to back his claim. With better coordination of their armies, they would have won.

Robb was indeed willing to back Stannis before the King in the North business. But after that, he showed no indication of backing Stannis. He sent Cat to deal with Renly, and then did not choose to ally with Stannis at any point after Renly's death. If Robb wanted to ally with Stannis, and his invasion of the Westerlands was part of that, he should have communicated with Stannis to make sure that Stannis had a clear idea of where he actually stood and what he was willing to do. However, I don't see anything in any of the books about Robb being willing to give up his crown; he vehemently rejects the idea when Cat proposes it. Stannis interpreted Robb's coronation as exactly what it was: secession, and Robb did nothing to discourage that belief. After all, Stannis does talk to Cat, and Cat does not deny that her son is a king who has seceded from the realm.