Lyanna Stark Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Without getting into my specific opinions on Tyrion, how exactly? What would have been worse than the bedding, which we saw from Sansa's point of view?Her reaction to the Red Wedding, probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrja Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Without getting into my specific opinions on Tyrion, how exactly? What would have been worse than the bedding, which we saw from Sansa's point of view?I was just saying that one could be cynical and look at it that way. Just an option as to why GRRM did not write a PoV for Sansa between the time they were married and her final KL chapter (escaping KL). I'm not saying even 100% believe this is what GRRM was doing, but it is one (possible) explanation as to why Sansa has no PoV during the marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumnas the Torpid Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Her reaction to the Red Wedding, probably.But what does Tyrion have to do with that? Specifically, how would Sansa's internal reaction to something Tyrion was not responsible for (in fact, he was unaware of it until after the fact) make Tyrion look worse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrja Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Her reaction to the Red Wedding, probably.Yes, exactly this. ^Perhaps GRRM did not want to have to write Sansa in such a 'broken' state after her own wedding and learning about the RW. Yet, he has not shied away from writing other PoV characters in extreme 'broken down' states, so.....meh. :dunno: *Not that I am desperate to wallow in poor Sansa's despair via her PoV at that time, but just sayin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumnas the Torpid Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I was just saying that one could be cynical and look at it that way. Just an option as to why GRRM did not write a PoV for Sansa between the time they were married and her final KL chapter (escaping KL). I'm not saying even 100% believe this is what GRRM was doing, but it is one (possible) explanation as to why Sansa has no PoV during the marriage.To rephrase, I would like to know what it was Tyrion did/was doing that is supposed to be any worse than the bedding scene. I know this may come off as confrontational, but I'm really interested in getting to the bottom of the Tyrion antipathy around here. My perception of the character has already been somewhat modified by one of Queen Cersei's posts, so I like to get fresh perspectives.In the interest of full disclosure, however, I should admit that I am a big Tyrion fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrja Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 But what does Tyrion have to do with that? Specifically, how would Sansa's internal reaction to something Tyrion was not responsible for (in fact, he was unaware of it until after the fact) make Tyrion look worse?It wouldn't, necessarily. I was just rather cynically throwing that out there as a possibility. I don't claim to know what GRRM's motives are in what PoV's he chooses or doesn't in order to tell his story. It could just be as simple as he had only a certain number of chapters through which to tell the story, and he chose to tell them through one of his favourite characters.*Please note, I don't actually hate Tyrion, nor I am out to constantly make Tyrion look bad all the time. But, as I am (obviously) a fan of Sansa, I just feel frustrated that some of the views of readers directed towards her character during her marriage to Tyrion are likely facilitated by her lack of PoV vs us being able to see Tyrion's PoV. Given that later on she doesn't reflect back upon the marriage very much, it would have been perhaps a bit more.....balanced....to see Sansa's PoV (for more than just the bedding) as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 But what does Tyrion have to do with that? Specifically, how would Sansa's internal reaction to something Tyrion was not responsible for (in fact, he was unaware of it until after the fact) make Tyrion look worse?Well we get Tyrion's POV where we see him want to comfort Sansa, but decide she won't want his sympathy so in his head respects her wishes. Her POV might have been more like "he's told me my brother and mother are dead and I have to act like it doesn't matter and I have to cry in secret because he has made it obvious that he doesn't care and I'm scared he'll have me beaten if I show emotion." In reality Tyrion should have gone in and comforted her, or at least tried to, even if she screamed at him. Him choosing not to go in was again an example of him shying away from something that might make him feel guilty or take responsibility for his actions.Edit:In the interest of full disclosure, however, I should admit that I am a big Tyrion fan.Nothing wrong with liking Tyrion warts and all. Liking Tyrion and denying he has warts, but instead has beautiful angel wings is another issue. :cool4: I love Victarion afterall, and Sandor and Stannis. I doubt any of them can be considered good guys.Not saying you do this, but others have done, which sometimes causes a lot of the furious battles on these threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 But what does Tyrion have to do with that? Specifically, how would Sansa's internal reaction to something Tyrion was not responsible for (in fact, he was unaware of it until after the fact) make Tyrion look worse?Ah sorry for not being clearer. It's the fact that Sansa is almost missing during ASOS, and we don't get her reactions to the deaths of her family, hence why people often see her as shallow and unsympathetic, or at least distant: we don't get any first hand view of her pain and suffering. She doesn't tell us in her own POV how she feels about being married to a Lannister and hearing the news of the Red Wedding, which was a Lannister plot to destroy her family utterly and completely.For instance, we do get Arya's view on it when she travels with the Hound and hence Arya comes across as more sympathetic, while Sansa is mute and distant due to not having a POV and not dwelling on it in future POVs since it has already happened. Instead we only see small glimpses of her suffering from Tyrion and he focuses more on his own suffering than Sansa's. It seems secondary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumnas the Torpid Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Well we get Tyrion's POV where we see him want to comfort Sansa, but decide she won't want his sympathy so in his head respects her wishes. Her POV might have been more like "he's told me my brother and mother are dead and I have to act like it doesn't matter and I have to cry in secret because he has made it obvious that he doesn't care and I'm scared he'll have me beaten if I show emotion." In reality Tyrion should have gone in and comforted her, or at least tried to, even if she screamed at him. Him choosing not to go in was again an example of him shying away from something that might make him feel guilty or take responsibility for his actions.Again, the Red Wedding is miles away from being Tyrion's actions. Unless you are arguing that it is wrong for Tyrion to have informed Sansa of the fate of members of her family, I don't understand how this goes beyond a crisis of communication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Again, the Red Wedding is miles away from being Tyrion's actions. Unless you are arguing that it is wrong for Tyrion to have informed Sansa of the fate of members of her family, I don't understand how this goes beyond a crisis of communication.How can she know this? The only thing she knows is that she needs to distrust everyone. As of ASOS, Sansa cannot be sure Tyrion didn't know about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 Again, the Red Wedding is miles away from being Tyrion's actions. Unless you are arguing that it is wrong for Tyrion to have informed Sansa of the fate of members of her family, I don't understand how this goes beyond a crisis of communication.Not miles away. Yes, Tyrion didn't actively plot and plan, but he certainly went along with the wedding with the condition that Robb Stark would be killed, and he would become Lord Protector of Winterfell. So his culpability is still there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumnas the Torpid Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Ah sorry for not being clearer. It's the fact that Sansa is almost missing during ASOS, and we don't get her reactions to the deaths of her family, hence why people often see her as shallow and unsympathetic, or at least distant...Sansa is mute and distant due to not having a POV and not dwelling on it in future POVs since it has already happened. Instead we only see small glimpses of her suffering from Tyrion and he focuses more on his own suffering than Sansa's. It seems secondary.I understand the complaint, but this is Martin's fault, not Tyrion's. He's not telepathic, and I would argue that Sansa is every bit as responsible as Tyrion for the lack of communication between them (though this is understandable, as it is in her interest to trust no one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 I understand the complaint, but this is Martin's fault, not Tyrion's. He's not telepathic, and I would argue that Sansa is every bit as responsible as Tyrion for the lack of communication between them (though this is understandable, as it is in her interest to trust no one).Well we have been questioning specifically this narrative decision by GRRM. Should he have left Sansa without a voice during this time, or was he trying to make the greater symbolic statement that she had no voice. While I certainly think there's credence in the latter interpretation, the reason why it falls into critique is because of the overwhelmingly sympathetic portrayal Tyrion is given during this period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Again, the Red Wedding is miles away from being Tyrion's actions. Unless you are arguing that it is wrong for Tyrion to have informed Sansa of the fate of members of her family, I don't understand how this goes beyond a crisis of communication.I think because he knows his father planned it and feels guilty by association. I often wonder when he talks about how "we" murdered her brother and mother, if he is actually contemplating his role in the whole forced marriage and the real consequences.Honestly though Tyrion has supported his family (naturally because he loves Jaime and wants his father's approval) and unfortunately that means he is supporting some very bad people. I think Tyrion wants to be honourable and looked up to as Ned was, but at the same time he has been brought up by Tywin (who is a very vile person).Edit: Also Tywin does say intially that Robb will not be inheriting (which Tyrion maybe deluded himself as to what that actually meant) and then says after his marriage when he is trying to persuade Tyrion to sleep with Sansa and Tyrion says she is too young, Tywin actually talks about when her brother is dead.Tyrion is very intelligent, and certain things which should have been obvious to him (because they were obvious to nice but dim Robb and have also been circumstantially proven in AFFC and ADWD), he seems not to see or deludes himself about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumnas the Torpid Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 How can she know this? The only thing she knows is that she needs to distrust everyone. As of ASOS, Sansa cannot be sure Tyrion didn't know about it.Like I said, it is a crisis of communication.Not miles away. Yes, Tyrion didn't actively plot and plan, but he certainly went along with the wedding with the condition that Robb Stark would be killed, and he would become Lord Protector of Winterfell. So his culpability is still there.They are at war. It's actually totally reasonable for Tyrion to believe that Robb may have been killed by less nefarious means, but the bottom line is that the North/River alliance already tried to put him to death. And Tyrion had no control over his father's actions. And Sansa would have been married to another Lannister (or ally of theirs) anyway - probably one who would not have refrained from conjugating the marriage. And, yes, Tyrion had a dispassionate, rational motive (his safety and prosperity) to accept the marriage in hopes of gaining Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrja Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Ah sorry for not being clearer. It's the fact that Sansa is almost missing during ASOS, and we don't get her reactions to the deaths of her family, hence why people often see her as shallow and unsympathetic, or at least distant: we don't get any first hand view of her pain and suffering. She doesn't tell us in her own POV how she feels about being married to a Lannister and hearing the news of the Red Wedding, which was a Lannister plot to destroy her family utterly and completely.For instance, we do get Arya's view on it when she travels with the Hound and hence Arya comes across as more sympathetic, while Sansa is mute and distant due to not having a POV and not dwelling on it in future POVs since it has already happened. Instead we only see small glimpses of her suffering from Tyrion and he focuses more on his own suffering than Sansa's. It seems secondary.Yes.For me, this is not about needing to see Sansa's PoV because it will somehow make Tyrion look bad/worse/whatever. It is about wishing to see Sansa's PoV because it would help make Sansa just as, if not more so, sympathetic. Sansa is already very sympathetic to me, but the problem is that she is not as *obviously* sympathetic to readers as someone like Tyrion or Arya, so at such crucial points, her PoV seems even more necessary to me.ETA: And yes, that is meant more as criticism towards GRRM. I love the books and I love his writing, but it is worth questioning sometimes, especially because (obviously) the whole PoV system really affects how we view the characters and the events that occur within those chapters. He has to make very pointed decisions about which PoV character to use, especially if he has more than one in the same geographical location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittykatknits Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I understand the complaint, but this is Martin's fault, not Tyrion's. He's not telepathic, and I would argue that Sansa is every bit as responsible as Tyrion for the lack of communication between them (though this is understandable, as it is in her interest to trust no one).For the record, I agree with what others have been saying.But as for the viewpoint, that is what we have been saying. Martin did a disservice to the character of Sansa when he chose to portray their entire marriage solely through the eyes of Tyrion. The result is that he looks more sympathetic to many readers, at the expense of Sansa. Since we do not get in to Sansa's head during this time, her pain over the RW, her further depression, her fear whether Tyrion will keep his promise to not force himself on her, all of that is removed. It is distant. The next time we get in to her head, she is already shifting towards the escape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittykatknits Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 In the interest of full disclosure, however, I should admit that I am a big Tyrion fan.That's fine by me. I don't hate the guy, there are parts of his character I really like. I do get upset when fans of his whitewash his character though. As Rapsie said, that is what leads to many of the battles.For the record, I like Stannis, Roose, and Jaime. I wouldn't call them good guys either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 And, yes, Tyrion had a dispassionate, rational motive (his safety and prosperity) to accept the marriage in hopes of gaining Winterfell.I completely agree, but the problem is that this mercenary objective isn't communicated very well by Martin to readers. Instead we have Tyrion lamenting his cold wife, his daily agonies and how he just wants Sansa to bring him her love and lust. If a reader doesn't (and many readers don't) step outside Tyrion's POV to analyse the hypocrisy of his statements, one is led to actually be overly sympathetic to this man, who really at this time isn't more than a jailor, and to be critical of Sansa who can't realise that all Tyrion wants is to love her and be a good husband. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 For the record, I like Stannis, Roose, and Jaime. I wouldn't call them good guys either.Is it bad that since season 2, I really like Roose?Edit: Another small problem is that Tyrion forgets how much his family has hurt Sansa. He talks about how she loved her brothers as much as he loves Jaime. This is the same Jaime that attacked her father and murdered Jory Castell; someone she had known all her life. She prayed by Ned's bed along with Arya for nearly a week. Tyrion seems to forget this. He was held prisoner by her Mother and he a) assumes she doesn't know the details and B) forgets that she might actually hate his brother for this and that she might not want to see where he played as a boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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