From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa IV

[brashcandy]

I hope that Sansa will be able to reclaim her own song (and agency) and prove that life IS a song. It is just a bittersweet one.

I've always found it telling that of all the men in Sansa's life, Sandor is the only one to ever ask for a song. LF tries to suppress them and Tyrion bans them. Given the events of the BBB, I'd say songs do have an important role to play in life, it's just as you noted, one has to know the "truth" behind them, to know that some songs are outright lies, some contain little bits of the truth, and some of them you have to create your own meaning out of. As we develop and mature, the meanings behind songs take on a deeper resonance, and we're able to respond to them a lot more critically.

[Valkyrja]

I've always found it telling that of all the men in Sansa's life, Sandor is the only one to ever ask for a song. LF tries to suppress them and Tyrion bans them. Given the events of the BBB, I'd say songs do have an important role to play in life, it's just as you noted, one has to know the "truth" behind them, to know that some songs are outright lies, some contain little bits of the truth, and some of them you have to create your own meaning out of. As we develop and mature, the meanings behind songs take on a deeper resonance, and we're able to respond to them a lot more critically.

I agree! And not all songs are lies. Sansa proved this, when she subconsciously chose to sing the Prayer to the Mother to Sandor, instead of one of the songs about knights that he was constantly disparaging all the time (even though part of him wanted to hear one I think, hehe). Instead, she sang about something that was so very real, and full of real emotion, and it was all the more fitting and powerful for that particular situation because of it.

just imo. :)

[Kittykatknits]

I truly hope that she doesn't become dutiful. I have a lot of wishes when it comes to the fates of ASOIAF characters, but the annulment is probably my #1 because it's not just about the story but about the unfortunate real world expectations that people's responses to Sansa/Tyrion often reveal. I'm not happy with how Tyrion's behaviour regarding the marriage is whitewashed, in the ways that Queen Cersei I's excellent post points out. It says a lot that Tyrion's "daily agony" in marriage is his perceived humiliation, not the actual or feared sexual abuse that is the "daily agony" of a powerless child forced into marriage - yet Sansa is supposed to be the selfish, shallow one, that's how little a woman's sexual safety and wishes matter to many readers. If Sansa isn't freed from a marriage she was forced into as a 12-year-old hostage and becomes Tyrion's reward for his sucky life (never mind how sucky hers has been), to me it'll be like saying that female desire is unimportant, even worthy of contempt. She isn't allowed to choose whether she crushes on lovely Loras, plans to build a happy married life with crippled Willas, or imagines being kissed by the hideously scarred Sandor. No, if a man expresses interest in her as Tyrion did, she must be grateful and devote herself to him even though she feels no sexual or romantic attraction, while no similar demand is made of Tyrion and he is quite free to wish for the love/lust of total babes only (has "mean girl" Sansa ever been as hateful about anyone as Tyrion about Lollys?). If a girl actually likes being feminine and longs for romance and pretty boys those hopes must be crushed, so that once she has been humbled she'll settle for being some man's dream and abandons her own. I think the annulment is a possibility, I even think it's more likely than continued marriage, but I don't think Tyrion will ever be confronted about his attitude towards and abuses of women in the text itself. He'll continue to feel blind self-pity and even nobly release the silly girl from a marriage she's too foolish to appreciate.

This is a really great post. You express so many of my thoughts here! I highlighted what I think is a very important sentence. Sansa was forced in to this marriage at only 12 years of age. We know that she does not want to be married to Tyrion and we know that she has expressed attraction towards Sandor. Martin has an opportunity with their marriage to make an important statement about female desire. If he writes a plot line that has Sansa accepting her role as his wife, or worse, having no choice in doing so, then Martin will effectively be saying that female choice and female desire does not matter. It is subservient to men. I am very curious how he handles this for that very reason. It's not just the resolution of a plot line, it is a message on the value of women, as independent objects, not as extensions of men.

In reality Tyrion should have gone in and comforted her, or at least tried to, even if she screamed at him. Him choosing not to go in was again an example of him shying away from something that might make him feel guilty or take responsibility for his actions.

Tyrion at one point says that he wants her to bring him her joys and sorrows. Yet, her we see her sorrow and he seems to run from it. His reasoning is that she would not want comfort from a Lannister. But, is that it? A part of me thinks that it really gave him an excuse. Remember, Tyrion does not have a history of positive relationships with women and that is really shown here.

Beyond this, if Tyrion really wanted to make the marriage work, if he really wanted to be a husband, this was a moment he could have done something. He had an opportunity to take some ownership in her pain, to recognize that he was at least partly in the wrong. Yet, he ran from it.

I don't think this comes anywhere close to some of the other acts he has commited but I struggle to reconcile his action here with some of his other thoughts. His complete inability to do anything also helps illustrate just how wide the gulf was between them.

[Winter's Knight]

So, I've been watching Doctor Who and there's this one bit in season three when he's talking about music: there's no real point to it-it can't feed you or warm you or heal you. It is, practically speaking, useless.

But it can cheer you, comfort you, it pushes you to dream to think beyond your present misery, it pushes you to move, to dance, to hope.

Songs play a similar role in ASoIaF. When Cat mourns about Renly's knights being the knights of summer,Brienne answers with the quote in my signature. Effectively, she says that though they probably will die in battle, they will have died for something bigger than themselves, for what they belive to be a better, brighter future.

Sansa in fact uses songs as a means of instilling courage in the ladies of the court during the BwB and later to calm Sandor.

And I think this is what Sansa and the rest of Westoros need: songs to give them hope and to unite them for the coming winter.

[romantic]

Going back to some older topics (sorry):-

1. Lady Stoneheart - I've always thought she's remembering the last few minutes of her life and constantly feeling the anguish, anger and desperation of those moments which drives her to kill the Freys and protect orphans, etc. Meeting any of her remaining children might enable her to let go. Though, ideally, none of her children should meet her in this state, if Sansa knew who she was IMO Sansa would want to bring LS peace and could handle this (maybe not Arya, Bran or Rickon).

2. Beautiful women paired with average men are a staple of American tv. IMO British tv is more realistic about protraying average people.

3. As I get older, everyone younger looks more beautiful and I suppose GRRM feels the same way. Teens/twenties are often healthy and slim with glowing skin (outside the pimple years) before poor dental hygiene, poor nutrition, late nights and too much alcohol really start to take affect. IMO aging probably happens much faster in a medieval setting.

4. At some stage during the Sansa/Tyrion marriage I'm sure there is a line about Sansa looking more attractive because she is sad/grieving (ugh). So even when she's miserable/grieving her main attribute is still her looks - what does the poor girl have to do to repel men!!!.

5. Men can range from handsome to rugged (not classically handsome but athletic and/or masculine) and still be attractive. Women don't seem to have this broad range of appeal.

[brashcandy]

I don't think this comes anywhere close to some of the other acts he has commited but I struggle to reconcile his action here with some of his other thoughts. His complete inability to do anything also helps illustrate just how wide the gulf was between them.

Good point. It's hard to think of anyone in that moment who could have provided comfort to Sansa, but Tyrion's guilty collapse in the face of her grief just underscores why the marriage could never work. One of the primary roles of a husband/wife is to be able to connect with your partner, to be able to comfort and reassure them in moments like this. Tyrion can't provide it, and Sansa certainly wouldn't have been seeking him out for such.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Sorry to take so long to get back to you. I had to go mow some lawns.

You see that but many, many other readers do not. It concerns me because the perception that many readers have during this time influence how they see and understand Sansa in later chapters. It also leads to the perception that "Tyrion deserves Sansa". So, if Martin had given readers some insight in to Sansa's pain, it is quite possible that many readers would feel differently.

Many other readers are fucking retarded. For instance, anyone who has the temerity to suggest that they "hate Catelyn" on personal level (rather than a literary one). While I can't deny the potential value of a Sansa chapter during this timeframe, I think the facts on the ground ought to be enough to foster sympathy for Sansa.

As for him being a friendly ear, I can uderstand why you would see that. But, from Sansa's perspective, she would know now this as he is another Lannister. He did save her from a beating but that would not mean she could trust him. In Clash, we learn from Sansa's thoughts that Joff was also better when his mother around too. So, clearly, that act alone would not invite any degree of trust from Sansa. She really has no reason to open up to him. In her mind, she is surviving until Joff's wedding day. If she opens up to him, that may give him an opening. To me, the closest thing she had to a truly friendly ear, after Sandor left, was Dontos, not Tyrion.

I agree with all of this, and I totally understand Sansa's decision. I just personally regret that their relationship never thawed, even a little bit. Honest conversations between Starks and Lannisters make for good reading, generally speaking. Nevertheless, such a thing was probably impossible, which is why I love Tyrion's desperation to try and be the good guy. He never could have, in that situation, but he hasn't been brought to the point where he can disavow his family yet - so he just keeps banging his head against the wall, while Sansa pulls a Ned and wraps herself in icy courtesy.

[Winter's Knight]

Sorry to take so long to get back to you. I had to go mow some lawns.

Many other readers are fucking retarded. For instance, anyone who has the temerity to suggest that they "hate Catelyn" on personal level (rather than a literary one). While I can't deny the potential value of a Sansa chapter during this timeframe, I think the facts on the ground ought to be enough to foster sympathy for Sansa.

Can we not use "retarded" please?

[Kittykatknits]

Because, y'know, them wimmin shud be grateful fer a man as thinks they're purty an' duzzint beat 'em, and shut up about sissy stuff like actually being attracted to the guy who shares her bed. Can't let women make their own choices now, can we? Shocking idea.

So, based upon this post, I'm guessing you live in the US? I live in one of the southern states and not that far from me are people who talk just like this. Complete with shotgun shacks and everythig. So, this struck me as really funny.

As far as Tyrion is concerned--I really appreciate, even if he doesn't grok entirely the magnitude of her losses and the obstacle they create for him, he at the very least respects them. These chapters for me, provide a positive view of Sansa that we don't get from her POV chapters. Like in the receiving line when he observes how effective her compliment to Lancel is. "She's really good at this," he thinks. There is an undervalued competency, there, that Tyrion's PoV lets us see. And I love the way his POV denies us any of her private pain and creates that sense of deep interiority.

My heart broke a little when she couldn't marry Willas, bc he was described as above all...gentle. And after everything she has been through, I wanted that for her. But, I also, now, and reading these threads, like thinking she is meant for something more like true autonomy. If that's where she is headed I'll applaud Martin for a nuanced understanding of strength. But I guess I'll have to keep waiting...

It's great that you picked up on this. I always thought it was one of Tyrion's best moments with Sansa. He was able to see her and make those incredibly astute judgments about her. His decision to marry her did not endear me to him but I really did appreciate his thoughts on her.

As for Willas, I'm actually rather glad that she did not end up with him. It would have meant marrying in to the family that felt comfortable for implicating her in regicide and it would still have been a purely political marriage for her claim. The Tyrells did at least ask her first which I appreciate it. But, Dontos said they were just like the lions, only smelled sweeter and I believe him. As much as I don't like LF, I think that Sansa has a chance to grow towards her ultimate potential in a way that she never could if her father was still alive or if she had married Willas. I get where you are coming from though but I'm glad it didnt' work out.

I've always thought it was significant that it was LF who told her that "Life is not a song". We know that LF lies and twists things to suit his purposes. I think he's always wanted Sansa to become disillusioned, so that she'd come to depend on him later on. (Eugh.) Its true, life wasn't a 'song' for him, that's for sure, but he sure did let his disappointment in learning this fact twist him. I hope that Sansa can continue holding onto her inner goodness no matter what.

You know, I never made this connection before. I don't trust LF at all yet he was the one to tell her this. Life may not quite the songs that she knew at the time, but it does not mean that her life can't be a song. This is a further example of LF pushing Sansa away from the things that give her comfort or that he believes that she may depend on. He did it after the rescue when he spoke about all the men in her life, his message on how WF was part of her past, his message on how older men and younger women generally work best.

One more thing, for what it worth about tyrion and sansa J I read today one of tyrion’s chapters before the Blackwater and as he is thinking about what it will mean to the lannisters to now have the ironborn in the North, he makes some pretty “foreshadowing” descriptions I think about why he would never have been accepted as Sansa’s husband up there, or by sansa herself:

Well, after this I wonder why he suddenly thought he would do better than the greyjoys up north? Was it because sansa would give him a stark child who would be accepted in the north? Maybe, but that would be something political which we know he cared about… but why would he still expect some acceptance from sansa herself? We know she is quite strong and not that hard to bend or break, and once I think tyrion remarks how she could hide behind her walls of courtesy. This reminds me of the strong walls winterfell has. It is just one more example to show that sansa is of the north and a stark, no matter if she once wanted to live south and that she lost her wolf. Maybe tyrion though wanted to feel safe and accepted both behind winterfell and sansa’s walls, therefore wanting her to give him her love and lust? And we know that even if Sansa favored the 7, she likes the godswood and could find solace there. Even George had her only hope of escaping her torment during the time she was in KL happening in the godswood with dontos. So she reminds me of the godswood when tyrion says he had never felt more out of place than when he was there. It’s the same with sansa. He doesn’t know how to deal with her. he shies away from it and he would never have a place in there. Even if sansa and he remain married, it wouldn’t really be necessary to have him being accepted by either sansa or the north…

Oh, wow! What a great passage. One of the arguments that we hear in favor of the marriage is that it would work as a political union. Here, Tyrion is confirming the opposite. He is not a Stark, he does not belong in WF. Sansa seeks refuge in the godswood while Tyrion says he feels out of place there. This really illustrates just how incompatible they are as a couple. I love your thoughts here!

[Kittykatknits]

I've always found it telling that of all the men in Sansa's life, Sandor is the only one to ever ask for a song. LF tries to suppress them and Tyrion bans them. Given the events of the BBB, I'd say songs do have an important role to play in life, it's just as you noted, one has to know the "truth" behind them, to know that some songs are outright lies, some contain little bits of the truth, and some of them you have to create your own meaning out of. As we develop and mature, the meanings behind songs take on a deeper resonance, and we're able to respond to them a lot more critically.

I'm out of likes for the day but I loved this!

So, I've been watching Doctor Who and there's this one bit in season three when he's talking about music: there's no real point to it-it can't feed you or warm you or heal you. It is, practically speaking, useless.

But it can cheer you, comfort you, it pushes you to dream to think beyond your present misery, it pushes you to move, to dance, to hope.

That sounds just like Sansa! The whole series is filled with characters who are bitter, angry, and cynical. Yet, she is a dreamer and idealist. She still keeps optisism as part of her inner core. I'm being a bit sappy here, I know.

Going back to some older topics (sorry):-

2. Beautiful women paired with average men are a staple of American tv. IMO British tv is more realistic about protraying average people.

4. At some stage during the Sansa/Tyrion marriage I'm sure there is a line about Sansa looking more attractive because she is sad/grieving (ugh). So even when she's miserable/grieving her main attribute is still her looks - what does the poor girl have to do to repel men!!!.

2. Yes, I know and it really frustrates me. The other trope that I get tired of is the stupid, inept yet loveable husband that needs to be educated every week by the slightly bitchy wife. Exhibit A: Home Improvement. I hated that show.

4. Yes, this is during the purple wedding. He is thinking she is quite beautiful and that her grief only adds to that.

Sorry to take so long to get back to you. I had to go mow some lawns.

Many other readers are fucking retarded. For instance, anyone who has the temerity to suggest that they "hate Catelyn" on personal level (rather than a literary one). While I can't deny the potential value of a Sansa chapter during this timeframe, I think the facts on the ground ought to be enough to foster sympathy for Sansa.

I agree with all of this, and I totally understand Sansa's decision. I just personally regret that their relationship never thawed, even a little bit. Honest conversations between Starks and Lannisters make for good reading, generally speaking. Nevertheless, such a thing was probably impossible, which is why I love Tyrion's desperation to try and be the good guy. He never could have, in that situation, but he hasn't been brought to the point where he can disavow his family yet - so he just keeps banging his head against the wall, while Sansa pulls a Ned and wraps herself in icy courtesy.

I adore Catelyn, I really do. I know she's a controversial character on this board and I never got why. She's absolutely amazing.

I agree, there should be enough to foster sympathy for Sansa. But, time and again, disussions about their marrige show the opposite.

In the current conditions there in KL, any meaningful communication or interaction was impossible. Tyrion was deluding himself and Sansa was a hostage. If Martin had shown them connecting on any level, it would have thrown the whole realism of the books out the window for me.

I think Tyrion is on a dark path right now and may be in danger of going to an even darker place. I really, really want him to alter his course and move towards a healthier place. I don't know exactly how he can do it or even if it is possible at this point. But, I truly want this for him. For me, as a reader, he needs to confront the marriage and be realistic about the role he played to show that he is rebuilding himself.

I would love for him to offer her an annulment. If that happens, they would have the opportunity to meet and interact as equals rather than her in a position of less power. There is much they could do together but it needs to be as equals and I do not see how that will ever be possible while she is his wife, as that will always mean that she is bound to him by a forcible marriage.

But, a political alliance between the two of them built on mutual respect and friendship, I would pay to see that!

[childofsummer]

So, based upon this post, I'm guessing you live in the US? I live in one of the southern states and not that far from me are people who talk just like this. Complete with shotgun shacks and everythig. So, this struck me as really funny.

:) The drive-through beer and ammo places are the ultimate irony. What's really scary, though, is that there actually are people that think women (gorgeous women, preferably, but any woman at all) should be falling-down grateful for any male attention, even if it's from a short, balding dude with a beer gut, sweat stains on his tank top, a...natural... odor, a permanent leer, and sadly limited conversation skills. (What a b*tch - she wouldn't even look, even with all the cat-calling!) :dunno: Unfortunately, Sansa seems stuck with a bunch of people with that attitude.

[Caro99]

I'm happy you like them kittykatknits! i agree with what you said about willas and sansa and i think this is a great observation: "As much as I don't like LF, I think that Sansa has a chance to grow towards her ultimate potential in a way that she never could if her father was still alive or if she had married Willas."

sansa would be great in everything she did i think (whether it were being married to king joffrey, i'm sure she would've been a great and respected queen; or if nothing since jon arryn died would've happened, i'm sure she would've done just as well with marrying a lord of a great house) but maybe george is trying to tell us that thanks to LF she will be a clever astute game player, thus we will see her having a future involved in politics..? and if she decides to step away from the game since she wants to be loved for herself and she will prefer a quieter life, will the other players just let her or will she leave them no other choice than to accept her decisions?

edit for 2 more quick things: i think cleos frey also remarks on how sansa looked beautiful even when she was drawn or pale or something like that to Cat... And, about songs and Sandor being the only man who asks sansa for a song (sweetrobin and his vale winged knight tales also likes them, but anyways) this is just another hint i hope that we WILL be seeing sansa give sandor that song willingly one day.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

In the current conditions there in KL, any meaningful communication or interaction was impossible. Tyrion was deluding himself and Sansa was a hostage. If Martin had shown them connecting on any level, it would have thrown the whole realism of the books out the window for me.

Exactly.

I think Tyrion is on a dark path right now and may be in danger of going to an even darker place...For me, as a reader, he needs to confront the marriage and be realistic about the role he played to show that he is rebuilding himself.

Honestly, they way I see their marriage is that Tyrion prevented Sansa from being raped by whoever else would have married her in his place. The sin that Tyrion needs to repent is murdering Shae, in my opinion.

I would love for him to offer her an annulment. If that happens, they would have the opportunity to meet and interact as equals rather than her in a position of less power. There is much they could do together but it needs to be as equals and I do not see how that will ever be possible while she is his wife, as that will always mean that she is bound to him by a forcible marriage.

But, a political alliance between the two of them built on mutual respect and friendship, I would pay to see that!

I concur.

[Lyanna Stark]

I'm happy you like them kittykatknits! i agree with what you said about willas and sansa and i think this is a great observation: "As much as I don't like LF, I think that Sansa has a chance to grow towards her ultimate potential in a way that she never could if her father was still alive or if she had married Willas."

Yes, I think this is an important distinction to make. While Willas may have been good to Sansa (and from what we have heard, he is not a bad sort of person) the fact remain that she would have been married to him as a power grab, and Sansa would have had no say about anything in Highgarden.

edit for 2 more quick things: i think cleos frey also remarks on how sansa looked beautiful even when she was drawn or pale or something like that to Cat... And, about songs and Sandor being the only man who asks sansa for a song (sweetrobin and his vale winged knight tales also likes them, but anyways) this is just another hint i hope that we WILL be seeing sansa give sandor that song willingly one day.

Tyrion also remarks on that she is at least as beautiful as Margaery Tyrell and that her sadness gave her a haunted quality that only enhanced her looks or something.

Honestly, they way I see their marriage is that Tyrion prevented Sansa from being raped by whoever else would have married her in his place. The sin that Tyrion needs to repent is murdering Shae, in my opinion.

I actually think this is a good point to be made. As much as I think Tyrion's marriage to Sansa was self serving, at least there should be a way out for them as they were both miserable in it and it was not consummated (and it provided and still provides some plot armour for both of them). Even if Kinslaying is a terrible sin in Westeros, I really cannot blame Tyrion completely for offing Tywin. Sure, it is a dreadful thing to murder someone, and even more so one of your family, but at least I can say that Tyrion had good reason to want to murder Tywin. Shae on the other hand is something completely different and a real stain on his soul. Or should be, at least!

[Kittykatknits]

Honestly, they way I see their marriage is that Tyrion prevented Sansa from being raped by whoever else would have married her in his place. The sin that Tyrion needs to repent is murdering Shae, in my opinion.

I actually think this is a good point to be made. As much as I think Tyrion's marriage to Sansa was self serving, at least there should be a way out for them as they were both miserable in it and it was not consummated (and it provided and still provides some plot armour for both of them). Even if Kinslaying is a terrible sin in Westeros, I really cannot blame Tyrion completely for offing Tywin. Sure, it is a dreadful thing to murder someone, and even more so one of your family, but at least I can say that Tyrion had good reason to want to murder Tywin. Shae on the other hand is something completely different and a real stain on his soul. Or should be, at least!

I have very mixed feelings about Tyrion killing his father. On one hand, I was glad Tywin was killed. I wanted him gone almost as much as I wanted Joff gone. I just didn't want Tyrion to do it. It's not even the idea that kinslaying is a terrible sin, although I think that fact may foreshadows Tyrion's future a bit. I agree that Shae is the bigger crime and that Tyrion needs to repent. She did not deserve death for her actions. Yet, the murder of his father sticks with me more. We've said many time that Tyrion is his father writ small. By killing him, it is as if Tyrion made it easier to also step in to his father's shoes. To me, this means that Tyrion may not be able to come back from the path he is on. And I want him to, I really, really want him to. I'm very conflicted about the whole thing. I won't say that I blame him for killing his father, but I'm not happy he was the one that did it either.

I agree, it was self-serving to marry her but I'm hoping they can both get out of it. Tyrion was just as unhappy and was beginning to realize that he would never get what he wanted being married to her in Storm.

[voodooqueen126]

I've always found it telling that of all the men in Sansa's life, Sandor is the only one to ever ask for a song. LF tries to suppress them and Tyrion bans them. Given the events of the BBB, I'd say songs do have an important role to play in life, it's just as you noted, one has to know the "truth" behind them, to know that some songs are outright lies, some contain little bits of the truth, and some of them you have to create your own meaning out of. As we develop and mature, the meanings behind songs take on a deeper resonance, and we're able to respond to them a lot more critically.

I think there is a sinister reason for this banning and denigration of songs, perhaps not consciously, but it's definitely there, on the part of LF and Tyrion.

Because these romantic songs, they are not just entertainment, but they are works of literature (for their culture at any rate).

Now we must ask: what is the purpose of literature? To which I would ask a second question: What is the purpose of education? In this essay by Theodore Dalrymple in which he says "The gimcrack pedagogical notion that education should be "relevant" to children's lives gained currency in England in the sixties. The thought that this would confine children to the world thatthey already knew—and a pretty dismal world it was, too, as anyone with the slightest acquaintance with English workingclass life will testify—apparently never occurred to those educationists who claimed such exceptional sympathy with the relatively disadvantaged. The result was that a route—perhaps the one most frequently traveled—to social advancement was substantially closed to them."

Now people might disagree with much of that essay, but that quote to me, answers part of the question "what is the purpose of education?" but answers most importantly of all, what is the purpose of literature: the purpose of literature is not to be "relevant" (whatever that means) but to show us the motivations and perspective of others, the word of others but above all the world of others: a world that can be far worse than our own, much the same but different, or far better. Yet showing us that, though we could be in the worst possible circumstances, we might still live, and though we could be in the best possible circumstances, we might still be miserable. The former teaches us to be grateful and to help those in need, the latter teaches us that not only is there a possibility of improvement, but that all the same, we will still be human.

So if we think about all the love songs that Sansa listens to and sings: well they are about love, not cynically arranged or forced marriages to men who are old, ugly and selfish, but love with men who are young, strong and loving/selfless. The world of love songs is a world where female desire is not irrelevant, or denigrated, something to "get over because it is shallow", but a powerful force that moves much of the plot. If Sansa is trapped in a dark cave of arranged marriages, duty and powerlessness, then love songs are the fire that reflect the shadows of love, freedom and autonomy.

How interesting that men like Littlefinger and Tyrion, either seek to prohibit that fire, or to deny that the fire casts light? How interesting that a man like Sandor, seeks to bask in such flames of love, freedom and autonomy?

[Lyanna Stark]

So if we think about all the love songs that Sansa listens to and sings: well they are about love, not cynically arranged or forced marriages to men who are old, ugly and selfish, but love with men who are young, strong and loving/selfless. The world of love songs is a world where female desire is not irrelevant, or denigrated, something to "get over because it is shallow", but a powerful force that moves much of the plot. If Sansa is trapped in a dark cave of arranged marriages, duty and powerlessness, then love songs are the fire that reflect the shadows of love, freedom and autonomy.

How interesting that men like Littlefinger and Tyrion, either seek to prohibit that fire, or to deny that the fire casts light? How interesting that a man like Sandor, seeks to bask in such flames of love, freedom and autonomy?

That's beautifully put. Really, really beautifully put.

Also, we see Sansa take strength from songs when she escapes the Red Keep: "Be strong like a lady in a song", so even if they are idealised, they still contain ideals to strive for and to take inspiration from.

Kittykatknits:

I have a similar view of Tyrion. He is trying so strongly to be against Tywin, but by doing so, he is creating himself in Tywin's image more than his siblings.

[Winter's Knight]

Voodooqueen, I want to take your post out to dinner.

[bloodymime]

So, I've been watching Doctor Who and there's this one bit in season three when he's talking about music: there's no real point to it-it can't feed you or warm you or heal you. It is, practically speaking, useless.

But it can cheer you, comfort you, it pushes you to dream to think beyond your present misery, it pushes you to move, to dance, to hope.

Songs play a similar role in ASoIaF. When Cat mourns about Renly's knights being the knights of summer,Brienne answers with the quote in my signature. Effectively, she says that though they probably will die in battle, they will have died for something bigger than themselves, for what they belive to be a better, brighter future.

Sansa in fact uses songs as a means of instilling courage in the ladies of the court during the BwB and later to calm Sandor.

And I think this is what Sansa and the rest of Westoros need: songs to give them hope and to unite them for the coming winter.

“You cannot eat love, nor buy a horse with it, nor warm your halls on a cold night,”

-Tywin Lannister

Just thought it an interesting coincidence of similarity.

And despite the fact that virtually nobody in this universe has heard of pleasurable chills there is in fact a science in how music physically affects us in positive ways.

"pleasurable music induces release of dopamine, a neurotransmitter vital for reinforcing behavior that is necessary for survival"

http://www.examiner....oyment-of-music

[Elba the Intoner]

<snip>

So if we think about all the love songs that Sansa listens to and sings: well they are about love, not cynically arranged or forced marriages to men who are old, ugly and selfish, but love with men who are young, strong and loving/selfless. The world of love songs is a world where female desire is not irrelevant, or denigrated, something to "get over because it is shallow", but a powerful force that moves much of the plot. If Sansa is trapped in a dark cave of arranged marriages, duty and powerlessness, then love songs are the fire that reflect the shadows of love, freedom and autonomy.

How interesting that men like Littlefinger and Tyrion, either seek to prohibit that fire, or to deny that the fire casts light? How interesting that a man like Sandor, seeks to bask in such flames of love, freedom and autonomy?

Very poetic! I agree. The theme of songs is the strongest in Sansa's story. It's as if she is tying everything else that happens, even in other parts of the world, together with his theme. The name of the entire series is "A Song of Ice and Fire" after all.