From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa IV

[Tumnas the Torpid]

But as for the viewpoint, that is what we have been saying. Martin did a disservice to the character of Sansa when he chose to portray their entire marriage solely through the eyes of Tyrion. The result is that he looks more sympathetic to many readers, at the expense of Sansa. Since we do not get in to Sansa's head during this time, her pain over the RW, her further depression, her fear whether Tyrion will keep his promise to not force himself on her, all of that is removed. It is distant. The next time we get in to her head, she is already shifting towards the escape.

This is the part that I am having trouble understanding. I do not see their situation as being a zero-sum binary, where the better Tyrion looks, the worse Sansa must look. I gather that there are a great many readers who are incapable of empathising with Sansa, but I regard that as their problem. For myself, I see the crisis of communication between the two as tragic, not because "Tyrion deserves Sansa", or some shit - I'm very happy that they never conjugated their marriage, and regard that fact as prood of Tyrion's essentially heroic nature (I'm not saying he is without sin, but his big ones come after this point in the story, as far as I am concerned) - but because he may have been the closest thing she could have had to a truly friendly ear in King's Landing.

[Kittykatknits]

Is it bad that since season 2, I really like Roose?

Edit: Another small problem is that Tyrion forgets how much his family has hurt Sansa. He talks about how she loved her brothers as much as he loves Jaime. This is the same Jaime that attacked her father and murdered Jory Castell; someone she had known all her life. She prayed by Ned's bed along with Arya for nearly a week. Tyrion seems to forget this. He was held prisoner by her Mother and he a) assumes she doesn't know the details and B) forgets that she might actually hate his brother for this and that she might not want to see where he played as a boy.

That's where my love for him deepened but I started to get curious about him in Dance. I want to know more about him in a big way. And Stannis has gotten really sexy for me, but I have no idea why.The show made me think Roose had the right of it and I'm now looking forward to the RW. It also has made me not like Dany a little bit, which I've been fighting really hard. Time should fix that problem for me.

ETA: Good example on how the two of them are portrayed differently. It looked like he was reaching out to her again, yet it is not at all apparent how insensitive he is being to her at the same time.

[Valkyrja]

This is the part that I am having trouble understanding. I do not see their situation as being a zero-sum binary, where the better Tyrion looks, the worse Sansa must look. I gather that there are a great many readers who are incapable of empathising with Sansa, but I regard that as their problem. For myself, I see the crisis of communication between the two as tragic, not because "Tyrion deserves Sansa", or some shit - I'm very happy that they never conjugated their marriage, and regard that fact as prood of Tyrion's essentially heroic nature (I'm not saying he is without sin, but his big ones come after this point in the story, as far as I am concerned) - but because he may have been the closest thing she could have had to a truly friendly ear in King's Landing.

I'm glad you see the situation in that way, and not as proof of Sansa's supposedly shallow nature. It just makes me sad that many readers see that particular situation as black and white, 'Poor Tyrion, Sansa should have learned to love him'.

[jarl the climber]

Is it bad that since season 2, I really like Roose?

Edit: Another small problem is that Tyrion forgets how much his family has hurt Sansa. He talks about how she loved her brothers as much as he loves Jaime. This is the same Jaime that attacked her father and murdered Jory Castell; someone she had known all her life. She prayed by Ned's bed along with Arya for nearly a week. Tyrion seems to forget this. He was held prisoner by her Mother and he a) assumes she doesn't know the details and B) forgets that she might actually hate his brother for this and that she might not want to see where he played as a boy.

This is not true, when confronted by Tywin for his not yet consumating the marriage, he replies at whether he should do it before or after he tells her about the Red Wedding. He states that when he told her of it, she had no discernable reaction but that later he heard her crying when she was alone. Tyrion seemed conflicted between the desire to win her affections somehow and the realization that this would never happen for a number of reasons. My bone to pick with Martin is that I would have dearly loved to hear how Tywin responded to Tyrions query and he does have a habit of ending chapters just when a conversation is getting interesting.

[Grail King]

Alright, back to the main subject at hand :)

Some questions I've been pondering concerning Sansa:

Does anyone think that it would be a good idea for Sansa to meet her mother again, now Lady Stoneheart? Or might this be too painful for both of them? Could it serve a useful purpose within the narrative?

Concerning the loss of Lady: we've talked about the symbolism relating to this incident, which might have forshadowed the eventual loss of Sansa's status as a lady, but are there any real practical downsides to her not having her wolf to warg? Is Sansa truly missing out on some magical experience, or has the whole business with warging been overly hyped? Was she in the long run, better off getting the dog?

First chance on today.

Of all the children I think Sansa be the one best able to cope with it this is not to say it should happen as I mentioned before if LSH cand se Sansa, Arya or both even from a distance I think she be content and let her self pass on.

[1234567]

This is not true, when confronted by Tywin for his not yet consumating the marriage, he replies at whether he should do it before or after he tells her about the Red Wedding. He states that when he told her of it, she had no discernable reaction but that later he heard her crying when she was alone. Tyrion seemed conflicted between the desire to win her affections somehow and the realization that this would never happen for a number of reasons. My bone to pick with Martin is that I would have dearly loved to hear how Tywin responded to Tyrions query and he does have a habit of ending chapters just when a conversation is getting interesting.

This maybe a matter of interpretation: I saw his not going to comfort her as him shying away from a difficult emotional situation.

Edit: Also I agree about the Tywin response. I wish we had more of Sansa's views.

[jarl the climber]

This maybe a matter of interpretation: I saw his not going to comfort her as him shying away from a difficult emotional situation.

Edit: Also I agree about the Tywin response. I wish we had more of Sansa's views.

I agree its a bad situation for Sansa in which Tyrions family participated in and his attempts to comfort her would have been in poor taste as Robbs murder cleared the way for him to use her to make his claim for Winterfell, she bacame the heir after his murder. My impression of Sansa is that she had sort of detached her true self and locked it in abox, so to speak, since she no longer truely had any auntonomy anymore. On a certian level she was performing mental gymnastics and only allowed herself to open up in the Godswood with Ser Dontos. She was just in survival mode til she could flee, if this plan had failed it probaly would have shattered her ecspecially after the Red Wedding, it was the only hope she had left.

[1234567]

I agree its a bad situation for Sansa in which Tyrions family participated in and his attempts to comfort her would have been in poor taste as Robbs murder cleared the way for him to use her to make his claim for Winterfell, she bacame the heir after his murder. My impression of Sansa is that she had sort of detached her true self and locked it in abox, so to speak, since she no longer truely had any auntonomy anymore. On a certian level she was performing mental gymnastics and only allowed herself to open up in the Godswood with Ser Dontos. She was just in survival mode til she could flee, if this plan had failed it probaly would have shattered her ecspecially after the Red Wedding, it was the only hope she had left.

I agree a lot with this. I think it is in a COK we see her briefly remember Jeyne Poole and Septa Mordan and quickly remind herself not to think about then because it hurts too much. Throughout ACOK and up to the RW we see her mentally hoping for Robb to smash them. Then we don't have her POV until the morning of Joff's Wedding. It is only one line she thinks but it has led to the theory that had the escape plan failed, she was seriously contemplating suicide. It goes along the lines of by the end of today her torments would be over one way or another.

[Grail King]

Alright, back to the main subject at hand :)

Some questions I've been pondering concerning Sansa:

Does anyone think that it would be a good idea for Sansa to meet her mother again, now Lady Stoneheart? Or might this be too painful for both of them? Could it serve a useful purpose within the narrative?

Concerning the loss of Lady: we've talked about the symbolism relating to this incident, which might have forshadowed the eventual loss of Sansa's status as a lady, but are there any real practical downsides to her not having her wolf to warg? Is Sansa truly missing out on some magical experience, or has the whole business with warging been overly hyped? Was she in the long run, better off getting the dog?

The wolves were sent more for protection for the kids, but that only works if they heed the wolves warnings which Robb and Jon do not, Lady was sort of sacrificed by Ned so we don't get to find out how lady would have reacted if Sansa was in danger ( but she did not exhibit any hatred for Payne, Joff or the Hound ) and Nymeria was chased off by Arya after protecting her and we see Nymeria in contact by pulling Cat out of the river and protecting her.

Do the loss of her wolf mean Sansa is no longer a lady could be, could it mean Sansa sacrifice herself for the others could be, with the loss of Lady who was her protector (well Sandor and Tyrion for a time) she may have to learn to defend herself, and along with the Dragonfly symbols she will need her own strength to find her inner peace and prosperity and survival.

[Kittykatknits]

I agree its a bad situation for Sansa in which Tyrions family participated in and his attempts to comfort her would have been in poor taste as Robbs murder cleared the way for him to use her to make his claim for Winterfell, she bacame the heir after his murder. My impression of Sansa is that she had sort of detached her true self and locked it in abox, so to speak, since she no longer truely had any auntonomy anymore. On a certian level she was performing mental gymnastics and only allowed herself to open up in the Godswood with Ser Dontos. She was just in survival mode til she could flee, if this plan had failed it probaly would have shattered her ecspecially after the Red Wedding, it was the only hope she had left.

This is the part that I am having trouble understanding. I do not see their situation as being a zero-sum binary, where the better Tyrion looks, the worse Sansa must look. I gather that there are a great many readers who are incapable of empathising with Sansa, but I regard that as their problem. For myself, I see the crisis of communication between the two as tragic, not because "Tyrion deserves Sansa", or some shit - I'm very happy that they never conjugated their marriage, and regard that fact as prood of Tyrion's essentially heroic nature (I'm not saying he is without sin, but his big ones come after this point in the story, as far as I am concerned) - but because he may have been the closest thing she could have had to a truly friendly ear in King's Landing.

You see that but many, many other readers do not. It concerns me because the perception that many readers have during this time influence how they see and understand Sansa in later chapters. It also leads to the perception that "Tyrion deserves Sansa". So, if Martin had given readers some insight in to Sansa's pain, it is quite possible that many readers would feel differently.

As for him being a friendly ear, I can uderstand why you would see that. But, from Sansa's perspective, she would know now this as he is another Lannister. He did save her from a beating but that would not mean she could trust him. In Clash, we learn from Sansa's thoughts that Joff was also better when his mother around too. So, clearly, that act alone would not invite any degree of trust from Sansa. She really has no reason to open up to him. In her mind, she is surviving until Joff's wedding day. If she opens up to him, that may give him an opening. To me, the closest thing she had to a truly friendly ear, after Sandor left, was Dontos, not Tyrion.

[Queen Cersei I]

This is my theory too. I hope we learn more about the Mormont family in future books, I find the whole family fascinating. The important thing to note about the Mormont women is that they are very much the head of their House and there has never been a mention of a husband for any of them.

Maybe they do warg bears who are the father of their children. That would be,,hmmm, yeah nevermind.

Clearly, when Ally said "bear," it was shorthand for "husband to bears"--a.k.a. the scourge of the North, Tormund's mighty member!!!!

They call Tormund "husband to bears," which initially misleads the reader into thinking the dude is either a liar or a perv of truly epic proportions. However-- in the last book, we found Ally Mormont, now heir to bear island, is known as "the she-bear." (Also note how Ally is also very tight lipped about revealing the father of her two children, muttering cryptically about bears and warging when Asha asks about her babydaddy.) Clearly, Tormund "husband to bears" is a throwaway reference to the wild passionate affair once partaken by the wildest female in the North and the Wilding's most epically well-endowed leader.

In short, Ally's babydaddy is none other than Tormund Giantsbane.

This is indeed important, because i'm sure we can all guess the crucial role this carefully revealed secret will play in Sansa's character arc in future books. Though we don't know the exact cause of LF's demise yet, I think it's safe to say that the plot to overthrow him and bring the light of goodness back to Westeros is sure to involve Sansa Tormund Giantsbane, Ally Mormont, several bear cubs, and Tormund's mighty member.

[childofsummer]

I truly hope that she doesn't become dutiful. I have a lot of wishes when it comes to the fates of ASOIAF characters, but the annulment is probably my #1 because it's not just about the story but about the unfortunate real world expectations that people's responses to Sansa/Tyrion often reveal. I'm not happy with how Tyrion's behaviour regarding the marriage is whitewashed, in the ways that Queen Cersei I's excellent post points out. It says a lot that Tyrion's "daily agony" in marriage is his perceived humiliation, not the actual or feared sexual abuse that is the "daily agony" of a powerless child forced into marriage - yet Sansa is supposed to be the selfish, shallow one, that's how little a woman's sexual safety and wishes matter to many readers. If Sansa isn't freed from a marriage she was forced into as a 12-year-old hostage and becomes Tyrion's reward for his sucky life (never mind how sucky hers has been), to me it'll be like saying that female desire is unimportant, even worthy of contempt. She isn't allowed to choose whether she crushes on lovely Loras, plans to build a happy married life with crippled Willas, or imagines being kissed by the hideously scarred Sandor. No, if a man expresses interest in her as Tyrion did, she must be grateful and devote herself to him even though she feels no sexual or romantic attraction, while no similar demand is made of Tyrion and he is quite free to wish for the love/lust of total babes only (has "mean girl" Sansa ever been as hateful about anyone as Tyrion about Lollys?). If a girl actually likes being feminine and longs for romance and pretty boys those hopes must be crushed, so that once she has been humbled she'll settle for being some man's dream and abandons her own.

I think the annulment is a possibility, I even think it's more likely than continued marriage, but I don't think Tyrion will ever be confronted about his attitude towards and abuses of women in the text itself. He'll continue to feel blind self-pity and even nobly release the silly girl from a marriage she's too foolish to appreciate.

Because, y'know, them wimmin shud be grateful fer a man as thinks they're purty an' duzzint beat 'em, and shut up about sissy stuff like actually being attracted to the guy who shares her bed. Can't let women make their own choices now, can we? Shocking idea.

[Thel]

Hi, All,

I'm new here, as a poster, so I'm going to tread lightly, but I wanted to weigh in on Sansa. I've found myself in a position of having to defend Sansa, recently, as friends have caught up/read the series, and as I finished Dragons. And, initially, I remember dreading Lady's death, bc it seemed to me when Ned killed her direwolf, he was also sacrificing Sansa. I was frustrated and angry for a long time that she wasn't more active or feisty like Arya. Why didn't she just kill Cersei at tea!? Why is she so useless!?

But it's also true that since these books have been around since the early 90s, I've also grown up with them, too. And I understand and sympathize much more, now, with how Sansa endures and survives a daily toxic, poisonous, abusive situation in KL. This, too, takes an amazing, albeit different kind of strength. And like so many other characters in the series--she's learning. I get crazy frustrated with Dany sometimes, too, but then remind myself how young they are. And, at that age, I didn't know my head from a hole in the ground sometimes, either.

As far as Tyrion is concerned--I really appreciate, even if he doesn't grok entirely the magnitude of her losses and the obstacle they create for him, he at the very least respects them. These chapters for me, provide a positive view of Sansa that we don't get from her POV chapters. Like in the receiving line when he observes how effective her compliment to Lancel is. "She's really good at this," he thinks. There is an undervalued competency, there, that Tyrion's PoV lets us see. And I love the way his POV denies us any of her private pain and creates that sense of deep interiority.

My heart broke a little when she couldn't marry Willas, bc he was described as above all...gentle. And after everything she has been through, I wanted that for her. But, I also, now, and reading these threads, like thinking she is meant for something more like true autonomy. If that's where she is headed I'll applaud Martin for a nuanced understanding of strength. But I guess I'll have to keep waiting...

[brashcandy]

Welcome Thel! :)

Hi, All,

My heart broke a little when she couldn't marry Willas, bc he was described as above all...gentle. And after everything she has been through, I wanted that for her. But, I also, now, and reading these threads, like thinking she is meant for something more like true autonomy. If that's where she is headed I'll applaud Martin for a nuanced understanding of strength. But I guess I'll have to keep waiting...

On the bit about true autonomy, I think you're right, at least in certain areas of her life. I'm not sure just how revolutionary Martin wants to go, but I'd love if he took it all the way with Sansa.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

Sansa's chapters have all been about proving that life isn't a song and that there are no heroes. She's had it beaten into her head that life is not a song and that their are no fairy tales. Now that she has almost completely given up hope, I would like to see her become part of a song or story. Not some simply story where she gets rescued from the wicked littlefinger at the top of his tower, but a story where she fights to escape and meets her prince charming along the way. I would love if after all the time GRRM has spent kicking Sansa while she was down I love to see her get her happy ending.

[Valkyrja]

Hi, All,

I'm new here, as a poster, so I'm going to tread lightly, but I wanted to weigh in on Sansa. I've found myself in a position of having to defend Sansa, recently, as friends have caught up/read the series, and as I finished Dragons. And, initially, I remember dreading Lady's death, bc it seemed to me when Ned killed her direwolf, he was also sacrificing Sansa. I was frustrated and angry for a long time that she wasn't more active or feisty like Arya. Why didn't she just kill Cersei at tea!? Why is she so useless!?

But it's also true that since these books have been around since the early 90s, I've also grown up with them, too. And I understand and sympathize much more, now, with how Sansa endures and survives a daily toxic, poisonous, abusive situation in KL. This, too, takes an amazing, albeit different kind of strength. And like so many other characters in the series--she's learning. I get crazy frustrated with Dany sometimes, too, but then remind myself how young they are. And, at that age, I didn't know my head from a hole in the ground sometimes, either.

As far as Tyrion is concerned--I really appreciate, even if he doesn't grok entirely the magnitude of her losses and the obstacle they create for him, he at the very least respects them. These chapters for me, provide a positive view of Sansa that we don't get from her POV chapters. Like in the receiving line when he observes how effective her compliment to Lancel is. "She's really good at this," he thinks. There is an undervalued competency, there, that Tyrion's PoV lets us see. And I love the way his POV denies us any of her private pain and creates that sense of deep interiority.

My heart broke a little when she couldn't marry Willas, bc he was described as above all...gentle. And after everything she has been through, I wanted that for her. But, I also, now, and reading these threads, like thinking she is meant for something more like true autonomy. If that's where she is headed I'll applaud Martin for a nuanced understanding of strength. But I guess I'll have to keep waiting...

Yes, welcome!

I'm so glad that someone can see the positive elements of Sansa's character via Tyrion's PoV and his thoughts about her! Most refreshing, and I like seeing it like this as well. Thanks! :)

[brashcandy]

Sansa's chapters have all been about proving that life isn't a song and that there are no heroes. She's had it beaten into her head that life is not a song and that their are no fairy tales. Now that she has almost completely given up hope, I would like to see her become part of a song or story. Not some simply story where she gets rescued from the wicked littlefinger at the top of his tower, but a story where she fights to escape and meets her prince charming along the way. I would love if after all the time GRRM has spent kicking Sansa while she was down I love to see her get her happy ending.

I think her life as it's shaping up to be is very song-like. She is invested in a romance already, and her Alayne Stone identity is giving her an outlet for Sansa's innate strengths.

[Valkyrja]

Sansa's chapters have all been about proving that life isn't a song and that there are no heroes. She's had it beaten into her head that life is not a song and that their are no fairy tales. Now that she has almost completely given up hope, I would like to see her become part of a song or story. Not some simply story where she gets rescued from the wicked littlefinger at the top of his tower, but a story where she fights to escape and meets her prince charming along the way. I would love if after all the time GRRM has spent kicking Sansa while she was down I love to see her get her happy ending.

I've always thought it was significant that it was LF who told her that "Life is not a song". We know that LF lies and twists things to suit his purposes. I think he's always wanted Sansa to become disillusioned, so that she'd come to depend on him later on. (Eugh.) Its true, life wasn't a 'song' for him, that's for sure, but he sure did let his disappointment in learning this fact twist him. I hope that Sansa can continue holding onto her inner goodness no matter what.

I also think that Sansa is not wrong for loving or believing in songs and stories. I just think that it is interesting that when she was young and naive, it seemed as though she did not fully understand some of those stories, or how they might translate into 'real life'. For instance, one of her favourites was the story of Aemon the Dragonknight and Queen Naerys.......that was a forbidden love story between a knight of the KG and the Queen, and a sad one at that.

I know that at this point, Sansa seems quite traumatised by songs (due to the association with Marillion and the death of her aunt), but maybe she will one day come to appreciate songs on different level. From my own life, I know that after an especially sad experience, I could no longer enjoy certain songs or music. Yet, after some time had passed, I could listen to some of these songs again, although there are some that will always make me cry from now on, and some that mean something completely different to me now.

I hope that Sansa will be able to reclaim her own song (and agency) and prove that life IS a song. It is just a bittersweet one.

ETA:

Just realized that this post could be taken the wrong way.....I'm not saying that it was wrong for Sansa to learn how to see beyond the songs, to 'look behind the curtain' so to speak. She learned the hard way that the Lannisters in KL were not to be trusted, after they beheaded her father in front of her. Then it was the Hound who taught her about 'sniffing out lies', and it did help her to survive in that situation in KL. Even her sad experience with the Tyrell girls shunning her made her realize that she had even less people she could trust. But my beef with LF is that I'm *always* suspicious of what he says to Sansa -- even when his words contain 'truth', he always has a super shady ulterior motive that is not ultimately concerned with Sansa's best interests or with her as a person whatsoever, but rather concerned with what is best for LF.

[Caro99]

Hi Thel and J.J.Schafes, welcome!

Raspie, you said this:

I think Tyrion wants to be honourable and looked up to as Ned was, but at the same time he has been brought up by Tywin (who is a very vile person)

I think this can also apply to Theon. I’m reading AcoK at the moment and in the chapter where he goes hunting for bran and rickon, he contradicts himself by resenting Ned and yet taking a moment to think on how Eddard Stark would’ve handled the situation…

Anyways, back to Sansa, apart from Arya (who I guess was necessary since she almost entered the RW’s massacre) I wonder why George didn’t really write any of the other stark children’s reactions to the RW. We only get to see the aftermath of what sansa thinks or tries not to dwell upon regarding it, and with rickon (well, we don’t know where he is), but with bran we just get like one sentence I think about it and then he tries to avoid it, and then with jon, he gets the news some time after it happened, but we don’t get to see him dwelling on it that much. I think that if sansa hadn’t been married to a fan’s favorite at the time, those same fans and others wouldn’t have thought her reaction to the deaths of cat and robb as cold…

One more thing, for what it worth about tyrion and sansa J I read today one of tyrion’s chapters before the Blackwater and as he is thinking about what it will mean to the lannisters to now have the ironborn in the North, he makes some pretty “foreshadowing” descriptions I think about why he would never have been accepted as Sansa’s husband up there, or by sansa herself:

He remembered Winterfell as he had last see it… Yet there had been a great strength in those stones, a sense that within those walls a man might feel safe… He remembered Theon Greyjoy… it was hard to imagine him as Lord of Winterfell. The Lord of Winterfell would always be a Stark. He remembered their godswood… That wood was Winterfell. It was the north. I never felt so out of place as I did when I walked there, so much as an unwelcome intruder.

Well, after this I wonder why he suddenly thought he would do better than the greyjoys up north? Was it because sansa would give him a stark child who would be accepted in the north? Maybe, but that would be something political which we know he cared about… but why would he still expect some acceptance from sansa herself? We know she is quite strong and not that hard to bend or break, and once I think tyrion remarks how she could hide behind her walls of courtesy. This reminds me of the strong walls winterfell has. It is just one more example to show that sansa is of the north and a stark, no matter if she once wanted to live south and that she lost her wolf. Maybe tyrion though wanted to feel safe and accepted both behind winterfell and sansa’s walls, therefore wanting her to give him her love and lust? And we know that even if Sansa favored the 7, she likes the godswood and could find solace there. Even George had her only hope of escaping her torment during the time she was in KL happening in the godswood with dontos. So she reminds me of the godswood when tyrion says he had never felt more out of place than when he was there. It’s the same with sansa. He doesn’t know how to deal with her. he shies away from it and he would never have a place in there. Even if sansa and he remain married, it wouldn’t really be necessary to have him being accepted by either sansa or the north…

about sansa having a song of her own- i can definately see it happening! they love to make songs in westeros about everything, and a song about a beautiful northern girl who was deceived by her golden prince, forced against her will to marry the famous tyrion lannister, a man who belong to the house which almost destryoed hers, then managed to fly away and hide as a bastard can be good some good stuff, and that's just the beginning of her journey! i always expect great things from sansa stark, and she hasn't dissapointed me so far ;)

[Elba the Intoner]

I always got the impression that Jon Snow was a bit dour and "Stark" looking, but on the other hand there's Brandon Stark (Sr) who was a bit of a ladies man, and you have Alys and Mel who are definitely not put off at all by Jon, not to mention Ygritte who bagged him ASAP.

Besides, if he is Rhaegar's son HOW CAN HE NOT BE? I refuse to hear a word said against my Silver Prince (or his offspring...) :lol:

I think Mance could probably be described as ruggedly handsome, and he's at least vaguely with the good guys. Other handsome dudes that are at least not fully bad are Rhaegar (hah), Brandon Stark, Garlan the Gallant, Ser Loras (I don't consider the Tyrells "bad" more like "scheming", same as the Dornish) then there's Oberyn, Gerris Drinkwater, Theon pre-Reek. Not sure on Robb, what's the verdict?

Ha ha, there is a new thread that's just been started about who is better looking Jon or Rob. Sorry, don't mean to derail the thread but that's funny given what we were just talking about.

ETA Everyone's posts have been great today! I am feeling especially generous with the "likes".