Heresy 14

[7V3N]

On the topic of Mel, I was impressed when she lit Varamyr's eagle on fire. Anything on how she was able to do that--magic or trick--and why she does not do things like that when burning people? I see magic, but can only believe it is a trick, because otherwise we would see her manipulate fire more often and in more ways than just good showmanship.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

This goes back to the Kings of the North/King of Winter talk from earlier this week.... no doubt this has been mentioned by someone... (it's hard to think of things that haven't...)

It occurred to me in another thread... in our king of the north/king of winter discussions, I don't think we've spent enough time considering the fact that no matter what else Jon Snow is, he is now officially Jon Stark, King of the North, due to Robb's decrees that are being slowly spirited North by way of Maege Mormont & Galbart Glover. When Robett finally finds his brother, who knows what will happen? Even though Rickon may be alive somewhere... if Jon is legitimized, he would then come before Rickon, would he not?

2nd order projection = Though I'm not sold on alot of these theories, if Jon is brought back as something 'different' than he was pre-stabbing, that could open the door for Rickon to be King of the North, & Jon the King of Winter...)

[Silver Spearwife]

And of course that little bit of oversight is gonna have some big consequences.

However one thing that I can't wrap my head around is how she still thinks that Stannis is AA; you would think that she would know that Lightbringer both gave off its own light and its own heat, and it's obvious that Stannis' Lightbringer doesn't (and considering that Aemon notes this right away, it's really suspicious that she doesn't). I just can't help but get the feeling that Mel is doing her own thing.

Yeah, there seems to be some backwards logic there.

In Mel's head:

Stannis is Azor Ahai.

Azor Ahai has a magic sword that gives off heat and light.

Stannis does not have this sword.

So she gives him a sword that she is probably aware is not Lightbringer because it does not give off heat.

Therefore Stannis = Azor Ahai even though she's incorrectly manufacturing one of the components of the prophecy?

I don't understand Melisandre.

[Ramsay Gimp]

^People can rationalize anything, and Melisandre is no exception. Inconsistencies and rewriting of prophecies to fit established events (or vice versa) is nothing new for major religions

I'm pretty new to this thread, but I find it interesting. I was wondering if you guys have talked much about the possible motivation/origin of the Others, and if someone could briefly list the main working theories so far

[7V3N]

I'm pretty new to this thread, but I find it interesting. I was wondering if you guys have talked much about the possible motivation/origin of the Others, and if someone could briefly list the main working theories so far

Right in my sig buddy. That's one of mine (though rather untouched since I became active on the Heresy threads). We have a bunch. Your best option would be to re-read some old Heresy threads, unless someone here has a record of them. Black Crow will probably have a better answer :bowdown:

[Ramsay Gimp]

^Heh, a reread is exactly what I was trying to avoid :unsure:

but I'll check out the thread in your sig

[Uncat]

Maybe she's blinded herself to any potential Azor Ahai other than Stannis, maybe there are limits to how much and what she can see - there certainly seem to be limits in ADWD. On the mundane and practical level word of dragons only reaches Westeros in AFFC iirc by which time Melisandre is on the Wall and probably not getting much international news.

Well to AGAIN, (sorry really :) ), drag the conversation right down to the mundane Bran does have rather a lot of ancestors, to mention all of them would have made the chapter very, very long. Presumably Bran only mentions his favourites, or those that have a particular reasonance for him?

Don't be, because this time there is more then this to it :)

Imagine the scene: He is going down with Osha, who is really affraid. then at the foot of the stairs, the long row of silent Kings wait. they start at the oldest and silently they walk past, what, thirty? fifty? silent and grim Kings of Winter until they finaly come by the first Kings in the North? And Bran only then starts talking?

In this case I'm with Sword: One would assume that any King and later on Lord Stark would drag his kids down there again and again tell them, who is who and who has done what because knowing your ancestrie is one of the core things which separate noble houses from smiths, bakers and butchers. We even argue, that they would start to imagine deeds and heros (or claim legendary heros) for their houses to prolong the line. Bragging about your line is an essencial part of being noble.

But the Starks are different there. They seem to avoid the times past the Kings in the North.

I perfectly agree, that Bran would not be able to recite the whole line. But among all thise Kings of Winter there should be some more he would love remebering, then litteraly no one. Some great heros, which fought monsters, grumkins and whatever else lives North of the Wall, perhaps?

[Uncat]

On Mel and the dragons: I have wondered about that, too. But maybe the fire visios are really about what you want to see and she wants to see Stannis. Because otherwise a Targ with the dragons heading for Westeros should at least bother her. This the more as an important guy from her shop takes the dragon girl for the AA. At first glance one would have the impression, that the red temple and its priest are somehow irganized which would imply some level of communication. But Mel seems to be on her own with her own agenda (as some others already pointed out in different/earlier threads)

I don't think, that her not reacting to the dragon thing stems from lack of means to know about the dragons. It rather seems like either Mel shuts it out because she does not want to see it or because she has a reason to ignore it.

[Uncat]

^Heh, a reread is exactly what I was trying to avoid :unsure:

but I'll check out the thread in your sig

I'd say, that the best thing we came up with for now is just this: They, like the COtF have always been there in Westeros. The are just another old race. Only that they are a world apart from humanity. They are not out to conquere and freeze the world but they would be read to engage in a war when their reign is being touched. When the first men entered Westeros, they first came across the Children and eventually like native americans and european settlers started to fight. That fight was put to an end eventually, too. Men advanced further and further north and thus entering the outskirts of those lands, the White Walkers would claim. War ensued. Only that this time the war waged upon man was an asymetrical war against an enemy like no other which left man chance-, hope- and powerless.

Somehow this war ended. For now, we like to assume, that the Last Hero found the Children and they brokered a peace. That peace would give all lands north of a certain line to the realm of Winter (i.e. all of the kingdoms which man had already established morth pf that line were lost.

As long as that line was respected, the White Walkers would leave man alone.

As for the WW, GRRM once compared to the Sidhe from Britains popular mythology. He made that comparison manly to give an artist a good impression of what the WW may be like. But once on that track, we noted there is much and more which links the WW to the Sidhe (to be clear, they are not Sidhe but the Sidhe with their Summer and Winter Court seem to be a main blueprint for the WW.)

Now, thi is not, what everybod on this thread takes as the given theory. It is just the idea which drives many debates. The regulars on the Heresy threads are a bunch of sceptics with quit different views but a tast for debates that go deeper then "he did" - "no he did not and you are just stupid" - "yes he did and you can't read".

Oh, by the way, right now that main theory encompasses the idea, that that peace forced upon the Last Hero entailed him guarantying that division line. It made him King of Winter in the face of man but it also made him the defender of the borders of the realm of the WW against man. So the Kings of Winter were basicaly vasall kings to the WW/Sidhe, alowed by them to wield the powers of Winter.

Which means, man did not build the Wall and the Wall was not meant as a defence for man against the WW but rather as a means of division. Like the gardenwall wich goes to tell others to just stay away from zhis garden. The garden in question being the lands north of the Wall, which the Whiteones claim for Winter.

That much on the origins. Maybe Black Crow is in the mood to summarize the Battle for the Dawn, the question o what happened one thousand years ago and, what some of us think, what the night's King's tale is realy about. but that is alot to write for a monday morning :)

[Silver Spearwife]

o.O Interesting. Wish I'd been here for the early debates.

Which means, man did not build the Wall and the Wall was not meant as a defence for man against the WW but rather as a means of division. Like the gardenwall wich goes to tell others to just stay away from zhis garden. The garden in question being the lands north of the Wall, which the Whiteones claim for Winter.

But then how come the Others can't cross the Wall south? But men can cross it north?

[Black Crow]

This goes back to the Kings of the North/King of Winter talk from earlier this week.... no doubt this has been mentioned by someone... (it's hard to think of things that haven't...)

It occurred to me in another thread... in our king of the north/king of winter discussions, I don't think we've spent enough time considering the fact that no matter what else Jon Snow is, he is now officially Jon Stark, King of the North, due to Robb's decrees that are being slowly spirited North by way of Maege Mormont & Galbart Glover. When Robett finally finds his brother, who knows what will happen? Even though Rickon may be alive somewhere... if Jon is legitimized, he would then come before Rickon, would he not?

2nd order projection = Though I'm not sold on alot of these theories, if Jon is brought back as something 'different' than he was pre-stabbing, that could open the door for Rickon to be King of the North, & Jon the King of Winter...)

Its worth re-reading the Jon chapter in ADwD where Tormund brings the Free Folk through the Wall - and so many of them actually swear fealty to Jon

[Uncat]

Ah, but they're not the oldest ones - they're supposedly in the lower part of the crypts. Bran appears to be able to name and tell about a fair few of those upstairs, but otherwise yes, you're right we don't know about the earlier ones - or if there really are any earlier ones.

Likewise on the ending of the story. There's two ways of looking at it. Either somebody popped up and invited him into a warm cave for a cup of tea and a bowl of weirwood paste and the interruption was there simply for dramatic effect, which is why Bran remembers later how it ended with the Children saving him, or else there's something significant which GRRM is hiding, which may be another tale. The trouble with the easy version is that the story is told at such length and in some detail that there's surely got to be more significance to it than a simply "with one bound Jack was free!"

Well, that brings us back to the timeline thing.

We know, that there are Kings of Winter entombed on the level everybody visits and it seems as there are quite a few.

I would give you about thirty starting some thousand years before the switch of titles (fifteen on each side is not that much, when you walk down that aisle). This would actually be most of Kings of Winter between the Long Night and the Night's King incident.

As everybody knows, that those are not nearly enough tombs for six, seven or eight thousand years, the Starks at some point started to mix the legends about caves beneath the hill with the story of the crypts, telling people that the older kings were burried below these ones. And given the idea, that this is a hollow hill, this might be true in parts because due to their alliance with the CotF, I imagine, that the earliest Kings of Winter would rest as nameless bones in the caves between the roots of the great Weirwood in the godswood.

But that still leaves us with about a thousand year of Stark history in the "open for visits level". And yet no one seems to bother beyond saying "those fierce guys, ah yes, those were the Kings of Winter. You would not want to mess with them. Good thing, they are dead and we have take every measure to ensure that they stay that way."

Bran is just the kind of boy who would love dark stories about fierce kings and ancestors. Actually I would bet my money on him loving that tales much more then some stories about the later Starks.

But he has non to tell, which on my book means, he does not know any because nobody talks about those man beyond: They were fierce man for fierce times.

[Black Crow]

o.O Interesting. Wish I'd been here for the early debates.

But then how come the Others can't cross the Wall south? But men can cross it north?

Ah well, we're not so sure about that...

Current theory on the Horn of Winter (probably the one Sam has) is that it is exactly what it says, it is the Horn of Winter and was carried by the Kings of Winter, until the last of them, the Nights King, was defeated and Joruman carried it off as a trophy. Blowing it will not necessarily bring about the physical desctruction of the Wall, but summon the power of Winter, ie; the Sidhe and effectively call them through the Wall and into the realms of men.

[Black Crow]

And with that, its time to hit the refresh button and post Heresy 15

[Uncat]

o.O Interesting. Wish I'd been here for the early debates.

But then how come the Others can't cross the Wall south? But men can cross it north?

Actually, we don't know, if they can't cross it. For now I'm rather assuming, that they can but for a long time just chose, not to. At some point, history became legend, legend became myth and some things were forgotten, that should have been remebered. At some point about a thousend years ago, current situation was established and man started to persuade them selfes that men had build the Wall and created some magic that prevents the WW from crossing it and up to now they just weren't proofed wrong. We readers adopted that belive because we were constantly told so in the books. But we have never seen proof of it. Even Coldhands only says, that he can't pass. We don't see him getting repelled.

But on the otherhand we experience along with Ygritte, Jon and Earls party, who the Wall seems to thirst for the blood of man.

Now why is it, that we haven't seen WW past the Wall? Because up to now it has been to warm.

This Wall of ice was raised after a victory of Winter, when it was perfectly natural to use ice for it (this the more, when you are basicaly a lifeform based on ice)

Some thousand or more years later, the Andals came and with them came summer and a victory of fire, pushing ice and Winter way back beyond the Wall and thus rendering the lands beyond the Wall much more habitable and inviting for man. I would compare it to the Vikings setteling Greenland in a warm phase around 1000 AD (exactly a tousand years ago from now, btw).

Man moved in and stayed, because with the warmer climate induced by the victory of fire/summer, the WW/Sidhe had no way of reacting.

But now they are returning, not to wipe out man for a sport but to reclaim their realm and battle the forces of fire and summer back to some extend or even all the way. Man just got between the lines.

So they are not evil. They are just pissed. This from the human point of view does not seem to make much difference but it actually does. Because, if they are evil, nothing will stop them. If they are just pissed, there might be means to make up and stop this whole thing from going down.

There might be even a way to establish a new truce by helping them to battle fire back some way until balance between Ice and Fire is restored, just like the Last Hero might have dome it.

[Lummel]

And that business with Coldhands - he can't pass the Wall or he can't pass the weirwood gate?

[Uncat]

And that business with Coldhands - he can't pass the Wall or he can't pass the weirwood gate?

Ahh, yes, that would be a difference, too.

[Silver Spearwife]

Coldhands can't pass through Bloodraven's cave either. Presumably, if what Uncat suggested about him lying isn't true, then it uses the same magic as the Wall (this may have even been suggested or stated in the text - I can't recall).

And that business with Coldhands - he can't pass the Wall or he can't pass the weirwood gate?

*ponders* Interesting. I always thought it was the Wall, but it's not stated...

The idea of the Others just wanting their homeland back is not only intriguing, it fits in very well with the overall theme of the books. The Lannisters have Westeros. Stannis wants it because it's rightfully his by the Baratheon line. Backing up a little more, Dany wants it because it's rightfully hers by the Targaryen line. Backing up more, Robb and Balon want their kingdoms because it was theirs before the Targaryens. The Others are just another faction of claimants. (Ten bucks says there's another post almost identical to this one in one of the Heresy threads).