Dragonfish Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Isn't that almost exactly what the Dance of Dragons was all about?No. In that war, a son tried to usurp his older sister's position.Renly?That was after Robert's Rebellion, which weakened the whole notion of having a legal claim to the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 No. In that war, a son tried to usurp his older sister's position.Well I did say "almost". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Well I did say "almost".Yes, but it was a pretty significant "almost." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Martell Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Yes. Maegor the Cruel had eight or nine wives, some of them from non-Targaryen families (one of them was named Jeyne Westerling).I don't think she would have been one of many wives. She would would been one of two de jure wives, but, IMO, the only de facto wife. In other words, I think Elia would have remained Rhaegar's wife only in name, while Lyanna would be his true wife.OK, fair enough. But do you think Rhaegar would be emulating a practice by someone named "The Cruel", and I don't think the 8 or nine wives were simultaneous, it says he executed the ones who wouldn't give heirs.We're just going to have to disagree here. I don't think Lyanna would settle for not being Rhaegar's true wife or her sons heirs and I don't think Elia would be OK with bringing in a 2nd wife/kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 OK, fair enough. But do you think Rhaegar would be emulating a practice by someone named "The Cruel"I think he'd be fine with emulating a Targaryen practice, which is what polygamy was.and I don't think the 8 or nine wives were simultaneous, it says he executed the ones who wouldn't give heirs.A few of them weren't simultaneous, but the rest of them were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Martell Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 So how can they still claim to be following their vows? Because someone else is king and they are with him now.OK, I just don't see a scenario where they would be there to guard the King unless they knew Aegon was going to be killed. Either way at one point he was alive and they were not guarding him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 OK, I just don't see a scenario where they would be there to guard the King unless they knew Aegon was going to be killed. Either way at one point he was alive and they were not guarding him.Aerys and Aegon had other Kingsguard guarding them before the Sack, so the three Kingsguard at the ToJ weren't in conflict with their vows then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Martell Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 I think he'd be fine with emulating a Targaryen practice, which is what polygamy was.A few of them weren't simultaneous, but the rest of them were.Maegor was 300 yrs ago and called "the cruel", not like that makes it common Targ practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 OK, I just don't see a scenario where they would be there to guard the King unless they knew Aegon was going to be killed. Either way at one point he was alive and they were not guarding him.They were orginally there to guard Rhaegar's wife and child. Ellia and her children were inside the Red Keep which was considered to be safe. No one could have forseen Tywin marching through open gates and sacking the city. By the time the Kingsguard at the ToJ were informed about what had transpired, Areys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Maegor was 300 yrs ago and called "the cruel", not like that makes it common Targ practice.Polygamy used to be a common Targ practice, even before Maegor the Cruel, and it has not, as far as we know, been outlawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 OK, I just don't see a scenario where they would be there to guard the King unless they knew Aegon was going to be killed. Either way at one point he was alive and they were not guarding him.Well Aegon was in the Red Keep with Aerys whom Jaime was guarding, so presumably Aegon fell under Jaime's protection as well. Viserys was also in the Red Keep for the duration of the Rebellion, so also, I guess, under Jaime's protection. Sure, it seem scant protection having the youngest and most inexperienced member of the KG protecting three royal people, but I think that Martell, Darry, and Selmy were also around before they went to the Trident with Rhaegar. In any case, all bases were covered by the KG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Martell Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Aerys and Aegon had other Kingsguard guarding them before the Sack, so the three Kingsguard at the ToJ weren't in conflict with their vows then.Lewyn, Barristan, Darry at the Trident, 3 at the ToJ, Jaimie at KL. So because Jaime was in KL that left those 3 free to roam about the country side protecting bastards and would be kings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Lewyn, Barristan, Darry at the Trident, 3 at the ToJ, Jaimie at KL. So because Jaime was in KL that left those 3 free to roam about the country side protecting bastards and would be kings?They weren't freely roaming around the countryside, they were following Rhaegar's orders to protect his wife and child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Lewyn, Barristan, Darry at the Trident, 3 at the ToJ, Jaimie at KL. So because Jaime was in KL that left those 3 free to roam about the country side protecting bastards and would be kings?Of course 3 of them would not be roaming about protecting bastards. They would be roaming about protecting a legitimate heir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nQthing Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Firstly, yes, and not to be rude, but you do seem to be ignorant of Westerosi (and RL) succession. Rhaegar and his line come after Aerys and Viserys only comes into play once all of Rhaegar's sons are dead.Secondly, that whole conversation that Ned recalls in flaskback is not them telling him to go to hell. It is showing us that the KG are/were not with any of the men or boys who conceivably could be king (ie Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon, Viserys). Yet the KG do not flee (from their duty to protect the king)? How can these two things both be true? Because the KG are with the king. Obviously there is someone else who is the king, someone who at the ToJ, someone who Ned does not yet know about.Who was king then? In the toj is dayne, Hightower, whent and lyanna. Rhaegar was there until he went to KL to gather an army to march on the trident. Dayne, hightower and whent stay for unknown reasons. At this time the order of succession is: King Areys > rhaegar > aegon > rhaenys > * * being Jon snow if he is the bastard son of rhaegar, and rhaegar intends of having his bastard legitamized. But then this would have lead to another blackfyre rebellion or in this case a snow rebellion > viserys > daenerys. But even if the R+L=J is true, why would the 3 KG protect Lyanna and the fourth inline for succession while aryes, rhaegar and aegon are still alivemy theory is because Rhaegar ordered the 3KG to protect lyanna because she is the mother of his baby (Jon) who he believes is the Ptwp and the song of ice and fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Lewyn, Barristan, Darry at the Trident, 3 at the ToJ, Jaimie at KL. So because Jaime was in KL that left those 3 free to roam about the country side protecting bastards and would be kings?Aerys had up to four Kingsguard knights guarding him at various points before the Trident, and the three Kingsguard who were on the Trident were in some sense defending him by fighting. So I think your characterization of events is invalid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Martell Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Of course 3 of them would not be roaming about protecting bastards. They would be roaming about protecting a legitimate heir.OK, how does Lyanna's baby become the legitamate heir? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 OK, how does Lyanna's baby become the legitamate heir?Because Rhaegar married her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 OK, how does Lyanna's baby become the legitamate heir?By the deaths of all of those ahead of him in the line of succession. Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Who was king then? In the toj is dayne, Hightower, whent and lyanna. Rhaegar was there until he went to KL to gather an army to march on the trident. Dayne, hightower and whent stay for unknown reasons. At this time the order of succession is: King Areys > rhaegar > aegon > rhaenys > * * being Jon snow if he is the bastard son of rhaegar, and rhaegar intends of having his bastard legitamized. But then this would have lead to another blackfyre rebellion or in this case a snow rebellion > viserys > daenerys.Actually, Rhaenys would have fallen behind all other male Targaryens in the line of succession, and Daenerys wouldn't be there at all, since she wasn't even born yet.But even if the R+L=J is true, why would the 3 KG protect Lyanna and the fourth inline for succession while aryes, rhaegar and aegon are still aliveI don't understand why people keep treating this as a mystery. The simplest explanation for why they were there while Aerys was still alive is that they were ordered to stay there. The real mystery is why they continued to stay even after the Sack.being Jon snow if he is the bastard son of rhaegar, and rhaegar intends of having his bastard legitamized. But then this would have lead to another blackfyre rebellion or in this case a snow rebellionI don't think Rhaegar intended to have his bastard legitimized after he was born, I think he married Lyanna so that Jon could be born legitimate.And the Blackfyre example doesn't really work here. Daemon Blackfyre's claim was partly based on rumors that Daeron Targaryen was not truly the son of the king. No such rumors existed about Aegon. He was indisputably Rhaegar's son, and therefore indisputably his heir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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