Maybe R+L=J is not true?

[House Martell]

Fighting on the Trident is defending the king, because the army they are fighting is the army that intends to usurp his throne.

They weren't always at the Trident, for a time they were almost certainly at the Red Keep. And yes, when they were at the Trident technically they were defending the king.

Clearly this is wrong because the King was killed, so they couldn't "defend" him in the Red Keep from the Trident. And I know Aerys ordered them to go but once they left if the KG vow is to defend the king shouldn't the ones at ToJ return to the actual current king?

[Dragonfish]

Clearly this is wrong because the King was killed, so they couldn't "defend" him in the Red Keep from the Trident. And I know Aerys ordered them to go but once they left if the KG vow is to defend the king shouldn't the ones at ToJ return to the actual current king?

Not unless they received an order to do so.

And besides, it's likely the three Kingsguard didn't even hear about the Trident and the Sack until they had already happened.

[House Martell]

Not unless they received an order to do so.

And besides, it's likely the three Kingsguard didn't even hear about the Trident and the Sack until they had already happened.

That's my question do they need to be specifically ordered to guard the king or is that their paramount standing order that trumps all others? (that was my understanding)

[Jem]

Clearly this is wrong because the King was killed, so they couldn't "defend" him in the Red Keep from the Trident. And I know Aerys ordered them to go but once they left if the KG vow is to defend the king shouldn't the ones at ToJ return to the actual current king?

You can defend the king (or anyone else) without necessarily being successful.

[Toccs]

Clearly this is wrong because the King was killed, so they couldn't "defend" him in the Red Keep from the Trident. And I know Aerys ordered them to go but once they left if the KG vow is to defend the king shouldn't the ones at ToJ return to the actual current king?

They were defending him from the Trident. None of them could have predicited that Tywin would be let in to the city and sack it or that Jaime was going to kill Areys. The King and Rhaegar's children were inside the Red Keep, if the gates hadn't been opened any force hoping to attack them would have had to lay siege to the city which would give more then enough time for reinforcements to arrive.

Their vows are also to protect the Royal Family and the only members of the Royal line who were not at the Red Keep/Trident were Lyanna and Jon. So yes Rhaegar had ordered them to protect Lyanna and the baby who were obviously unable to be moved.

[Jem]

That's my question do they need to be specifically ordered to guard the king or is that their paramount standing order that trumps all others? (that was my understanding)

From what I remember, Barristan confirms in one of his chapters (or maybe one of Dany's chapters) in ADWD that the KG's paramount responsibility (the responsibility that trumps all others) is to protect the king at all costs.

[House Martell]

Their vows are also to protect the Royal Family and the only members of the Royal line who were not at the Red Keep/Trident were Lyanna and Jon. So yes Rhaegar had ordered them to protect Lyanna and the baby who were obviously unable to be moved.

No their Vow is to protect the King, the King has been know to assign some members to look after his family but their actual vow is for the King

[Toccs]

No their Vow is to protect the King, the King has been know to assign some members to look after his family but their actual vow is for the King

Yes that's exactly it. They were assigned to protect the only members of the Royal Line that were not safely within the Red Keep. The King was being protected by the other 4 Kingsguard. Once Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were killed then their vow to protect the King was transfered to baby Jon which is why they remained at the tower.

[House Martell]

They were assigned to protect the only members of the Royal Line that were not safely within the Red Keep.

Who assigned them to do this and how does this "assignment" trump their vow to protect the king

[Jem]

Who assigned them to do this and how does this "assignment" trump their vow to protect the king

Again, I am sure this info is in a Barristan (or Dany) chapter in ADWD. Barristan recalls that the KG primary duty is to protect the king and that it is at the king's discretion whether or not that protection extends to other members of the royal family, the king's mistress or the king's bastard.

[Toccs]

Who assigned them to do this and how does this "assignment" trump their vow to protect the king

Rhaegar assigned them to do it, and it doesn't interfere with their vow to protect the King because the King still had four Kingsguard with him.

By the time they learn what happened at the Red Keep, none of that matters because Jon is now the King and they are sworn to defend him.

By your logic Arys Oakheart should not have stayed in Dorne with Myrcella while Jofferey was killed.

[Dragonfish]

Who assigned them to do this and how does this "assignment" trump their vow to protect the king

It doesn't trump their vow to protect the king, that's the whole point. But before the Trident this wasn't much of an issue, since Aerys was still being defended by four Kingsguard knights (in other words, as long as at least one of their number is defending the king, then the other members are free to be dispatched elsewhere without worrying about conflicting vows). It was only after the Trident and the Sack that it became their duty to leave their post and defend Viserys, as he was without Kingsguard protection. Unless, of course, Jon was the true king.

[madmonkey]

Clearly this is wrong because the King was killed, so they couldn't "defend" him in the Red Keep from the Trident. And I know Aerys ordered them to go but once they left if the KG vow is to defend the king shouldn't the ones at ToJ return to the actual current king?

I don't think it matters since its quite safe to assume that the three KG at the TOJ were more loyal to Rhaegar then to Aerys.

[corbon]

Who assigned them to do this and how does this "assignment" trump their vow to protect the king

There is a lot of short answer posts in this thread (and some cool heads to, congrats).

I think a longer post might help.

We know from Barristan's ADwD POVS that the KG's primary responsibility is to protect the King and that one KG at least must be with the King at all times. We know also from his POV's and much historical evidence that KG can be given other duties, protecting tthe royal family, commanding armies, rooting out bandits etc.

But the clear implication is that these duties are only 'available' as long as one of them is with the King.

Theoretical situation at time of Battle of Bells:

Aerys: in KL, with KG members Hightower, Lannister, and probably Darry, Selmy, Whent and Martell.

Rhaegar: At ToJ with probably KG member Dayne and maybe Darry (unlikely) or Whent.

Battle of Bells, Connington loses, rebellion is a serious threat, Aerys decides no more faffing about, Rhaegar is needed to take charge.

Aerys sends Hightower, and possibly Whent and Darry to "go find Rhaegar" and make him CiC.

Hightower knows where Rhaegar is and goes to ToJ.

Rhaegar takes command as CiC. He leaves Hightower, Dayne and Whent behind to protect for his wife Lyanna and unborn son Jon. He returns to KL with Darry (can't see them letting him travel alone). No KG is breaking their vow as their primary purpose is being fulfilled (Aerys is protected by several KG) and they are free to do secondary purposes (protect royal family) as directed by Aerys, or Rhaegar as his CiC and proxy.

Rhaegar takes Selmy, Martell and Darry off with the army to the Trident and leaves Jaime, an invincible Keep, and thousands of soldiers and goldcloaks to protect Aerys and the rest of the royal family.

The KG at ToJ are out of the loop here, so carry on with their business and no KG is under threat of breaking any vow. There is still a KG with the King.

Rhaegar loses at the Trident and dies, as do Darry and Martell. Selmy is badly wounded and incapacitated. Robert is also wounded. Ned rides ahead to KL where Tywin is sacking the city by treachery and Aerys letting him in. Jaime kills Aerys and other Lannister men kill Aegon. The KG at the ToJ are stll going about their business and unbeknownst to them, Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon are all dead. As afar as they know they are still following their vows and one or more of their fellows are with the king (indeed, always have been, assuming Aegon died (minutes) before Jaime slew Aerys).

Word of the events at KL (Targaryens destroyed, death of Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon, Robert is crowned King) reaches ToJ. 3KG there now have a new king, either Viserys or someone higher than Viserys in the succession (ie legitimate Jon or one of the others is not really dead). If Viserys is the new king, one of them (at least) must go to him immediately or they are failing their primary vow as the King has no KG with him. But they do not move, even after Ned rides up and has 'the conversation' (during which they show they know Viserys's situation by replying that the Darry brother with Viserys is not a KG).

Therefore Viserys is not the king and the king is at ToJ since none of them have gone anywhere else.

Therefore either not-really-dead Aegon is at ToJ, or Lyanna has given birth to a legitimate son of Rhaegar who precedes Viserys in the succession line, since these are the only realistic option ahead of Viserys in the succession. Rhaegar was seen dead, Aerys was seen dead, Aegon was seen dead but only unrecognisable.

Therefore Lyanna and Rhaegar were married (something we have no evidence against), making Jon the legitimate heir ahead of Viserys, and King. Unless of course Aegon was at ToJ.

[RhaenysBee]

Therefore Lyanna and Rhaegar were married (something we have no evidence against), making Jon the legitimate heir ahead of Viserys, and King. Unless of course Aegon was at ToJ.

We don't really have evidence supporting that they were married either. I highly doubt that Aegon was at ToJ too. But it can happen. That's why Jon was taken in by Eddard (assuming that he's not Rhaegar's heir, since there's Aegon) instead of being shipped off to Essos. That leaves Eddard having no bastards whatsoever and gives a slight legitimacy to the Lemore=Ashara theory, which I also refuse to believe. But in that case Eddard should know about Aegon... and Eddard honor champion doesn't even consider bringing back Aegon after Robert died? Such idea (that there's a fourth claimant to the Throne, Stannis, Renly, Joffrey, Aegon?) never even occurred in any Eddard chapter.

Anyway, if Aegon was at ToJ what about this Wylla woman? Jon and Someone were milkbrothers, assuming that Wylla gave up her own child like Gilly did and pretended Jon was her and Eddard's bastard, then her true son is Someone who told Arya that he and Jon were milkbrothers. Okay. And what the hell about Aegon? He needed a wetnurse too and there was no mention of a third baby.

If Aegon was shipped to Essos and Varys did his job well, I'm sure it was not through Dorne and ToJ.

But if he was shipped to Essos who knows about it? Varys? He just came back and everybody will believe he is Aegon Targaryen believed dead for 16 years, because he says so? That's why I think Aegon is fake. I mean surely at least the Martells should have known that Aegon was saved. They didn't, because Doran plotted to give the Throne to Viserys and then to Daenerys. If Aegon is Illyrio's son, which I also don't believe, why the hell say he is Aegon when there's Daenerys? (Assuming that Jon is just Eddard's bastard) Ah, it's so complicated. And we'll never truly know what happened.

[Thendel]

Might I suggest the OP next time takes this up in the R+L=J thread, instead of starting a new thread on virtually the same issue? Your questions are valid, but there's really nothing here that couldn't be addressed in that thread. And no, people do not expect you to have read all the previous 26 threads in order to participate.

[corbon]

We don't really have evidence supporting that they were married either.

?!?

I just gave you the detailed run down on the evidence that they were married. The KG are still there at ToJ because they were married making Jon the legitimate heir, that is the very strong evidence for it.

There are only two realistically possible options. They were married and Jon is their legitimate baby, or Aegon was at ToJ. Aegon being at TJ is extremely unlikely, but not entirely impossible and if giving every possible option against R=L=J (and them being married) cannot be ruled out entirely.

Live-Aegon, in this discussion, is not really relevant but is the 0.01% chance that gives an alternate explanation for the KG presence at ToJ that does not require R+L to be married

[Maxpey]

Of course 3 of them would not be roaming about protecting bastards. They would be roaming about protecting a legitimate heir.

Was Jon the legitimate heir, though? As I have posted in other threads, this passage from page 380 of GoT leads me to believe that Ned believes Jon is a bastard:

"She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart right out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so much like a younger version of his own. If the God's frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? 'Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?'"

Remember, Ned had just met Barra, one of Robert's bastards just moments before. The most reasonable interpretation of this passage is that Ned thinks Jon is a bastard. If Ned believes this is so, why should the rest of us?

To be fair, other posters have suggested that if Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard its only because it was the life that Ned chose for Jon when he decided to raise him as his own son. Under this interpretation, the fact that Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard does not mean that Rhaegar and Lyanna were not legally married when she gave birth to Jon. However, this interpretation relies on the crucial assumption that Jon is legitimate. Unfortunately, it appears to me that the passage referenced above does not support such an assumption; to the contrary, it explicitly contradicts it.

[RhaenysBee]

?!?

I just gave you the detailed run down on the evidence that they were married. The KG are still there at ToJ because they were married making Jon the legitimate heir, that is the very strong evidence for it.

There are only two realistically possible options. They were married and Jon is their legitimate baby, or Aegon was at ToJ. Aegon being at TJ is extremely unlikely, but not entirely impossible and if giving every possible option against R=L=J (and them being married) cannot be ruled out entirely.

Live-Aegon, in this discussion, is not really relevant but is the 0.01% chance that gives an alternate explanation for the KG presence at ToJ that does not require R+L to be married

That's not evidence. That's a theory assuming that the KG acted upon law. What if the KG acted upon Rhaegar's orders and didn't give a shit to "one KG must remain beside the legal king all the time". Things happened very fast, kings died every day and the three KG at ToJ didn't know anything about the other four KG or what they were doing. Did they even know Rhaegar was defeated/Aerys was killed/ Aegon or NotAegon was smashed against the wall/Viserys was on the run with the Queen?

Of course there's a chance they were married but this KG thing doesn't prove anything. Rhaegar ordered them to stay with Lyanna and it's not like they would say, okay, byebye Lyanna, Rhaegar died so we are off to protect the new king while Lyanna was in the middle of delivering Rhaegar's son, trueborn or bastard...

Edric Storm was a bastard too and yet given all protection and noble life at Dragonstone. He was even as arrogant as Joffrey. Okay, not that arrogant, but still.

[Toccs]

That's not evidence. That's a theory assuming that the KG acted upon law. What if the KG acted upon Rhaegar's orders and didn't give a shit to "one KG must remain beside the legal king all the time".

The line "The Kingsguard does not flee" in response to why they are not with Viserys is pretty good evidence that they are in fact acting on their vows. If Viserys is the true king, then being at his side is not fleeing for a Kingsguard. Running away to Dragonstone while the true king and his mother lie helpless and are unable to be moved would however be fleeing.

Things happened very fast, kings died every day and the three KG at ToJ didn't know anything about the other four KG or what they were doing. Did they even know Rhaegar was defeated/Aerys was killed/ Aegon or NotAegon was smashed against the wall/Viserys was on the run with the Queen?

Yes they were aware of all of that. The conversation they had with Ned referenced Rhaegar's defeat at the Trident, Jaime slaying Areys and Viserys and his mother hiding out on Dragonstone and the three Kingsguards already knew about all of those events and yet still saw their vows as being at the Tower of Joy.

Of course there's a chance they were married but this KG thing doesn't prove anything. Rhaegar ordered them to stay with Lyanna and it's not like they would say, okay, byebye Lyanna, Rhaegar died so we are off to protect the new king while Lyanna was in the middle of delivering Rhaegar's son, trueborn or bastard...

The Kingsguard being at the Tower of Joy isn't the evidence, the evidence is the reasoning they themselves give for why they are there and not at any of the other places where they should have been.