House Martell Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Because Rhaegar married her.By the deaths of all of those ahead of him in the line of succession. Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon.But Aegon was still alive when they went there, and I'm not sure of how it works currently with existing wife's. Why does Joffery have to have his betrothedment to Sansa officially annulled before he can marry Marg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 But Aegon was still alive when they went there,When they went to the ToJ Aegon was in the Red Keep surrounded by the other 4 Kingsguard members. By the time they learnt what had happened, Aegon was dead and Jon was king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetitansbastard Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Another point, I think the 3 KG at the TOJ had already committed to Rhaegar's plans to oust Aerys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmonkey Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 We're just going to have to disagree here. I don't think Lyanna would settle for not being Rhaegar's true wife or her sons heirs and I don't think Elia would be OK with bringing in a 2nd wife/kids.Based on what? Lyanna's portrayal as a pious and proper lady? Everything we know about Lyanna says she would be the type of person to run off on an adventure with someone she loved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 But Aegon was still alive when they went there, and I'm not sure of how it works currently with existing wife's. Why does Joffery have to have his betrothedment to Sansa officially annulled before he can marry Marg?The Targaryen's have several precedents of polygamy within their family, so it is theorized that both Elia and Lyanna were Rhaegar's wives simultaneously. Aegon would still be the number one heir, and he was "safe" inside the Red Keep during the Rebellion.Joffery and Sansa and Marg have nothing to do with anything. Different royal family and different circumstances completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Martell Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Based on what? Lyanna's portrayal as a pious and proper lady? Everything we know about Lyanna says she would be the type of person to run off on an adventure with someone she loved.Yes run off and adventure, not be involved in polygamy. It's not a Northern practice, she expresses being upset that Robert has fooled around so why would she be "the other woman"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmonkey Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Yes run off and adventure, not be involved in polygamy. It's not a Northern practice, she expresses being upset that Robert has fooled around so why would she be "the other woman"?She wouldn't have been the other women, Elia would have been. Rhaegar's marriage to Elia was a political one, and Barristan said that Rhaegar was only fond of Elia, but never truly in love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Martell Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 The Targaryen's have several precedents of polygamy within their family, so it is theorized that both Elia and Lyanna were Rhaegar's wives simultaneously. Aegon would still be the number one heir, and he was "safe" inside the Red Keep during the Rebellion.Joffery and Sansa and Marg have nothing to do with anything. Different royal family and different circumstances completely.No, I think they are more relevant since they are current examples while others are from hundreds of years ago. In order for Marg Tyrell to be the acknowledged queen the High Septon had to allow Joffs marriage pact to Sansa to be broken, so why could Rhaegar run around and marry whoever he wanted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Yes run off and adventure, not be involved in polygamy. It's not a Northern practice, she expresses being upset that Robert has fooled around so why would she be "the other woman"?Because she wouldn't be the other woman. She would be (IMO) Rhaegar's de facto sole wife. There's quite a bit of difference between that and Robert's constant womanizing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 No, I think they are more relevant since they are current examples while others are from hundreds of years ago. In order for Marg Tyrell to be the acknowledged queen the High Septon had to allow Joffs marriage pact to Sansa to be broken, so why could Rhaegar run and round and marry whoever he wanted?No, they aren't relevant because Joffrey was not a Targaryen. Polygamy was a uniquely Valyrian practice, which the Baratheon dynasty did not continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nQthing Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 By the deaths of all of those ahead of him in the line of succession. Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon.Rhaegar died on the trident and Hightower, whent and dayne were not there to protect the heir. Aerys and aegon (supposedly) died during the sack of kings landing and thy weren't there either. They weren't at SE and they weren't with viserys or the queen. So why protect lyanna and a possible son if the king and other 3 heirs are still alive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Martell Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 She wouldn't have been the other women, Elia would have been. Rhaegar's marriage to Elia was a political one, and Barristan said that Rhaegar was only fond of Elia, but never truly in love.Elia was his first and legal wife, her son was the current heir. Cersei had Roberts bastards all killed but Elia is gunna just sit back and be OK with Rhaegar having new kids with another high born lady? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetitansbastard Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Rhaegar died on the trident and Hightower, whent and dayne were not there to protect the heir. Aerys and aegon (supposedly) died during the sack of kings landing and thy weren't there either. They weren't at SE and they weren't with viserys or the queen. So why protect lyanna and a possible son if the king and other 3 heirs are still aliveI don't understand where this argument is going since it seems to me Lyanna and/or Jon were the least protected of all possible heirs and family members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Rhaegar died on the trident and Hightower, whent and dayne were not there to protect the heir. Aerys and aegon (supposedly) died during the sack of kings landing and thy weren't there either. They weren't at SE and they weren't with viserys or the queen. So why protect lyanna and a possible son if the king and other 3 heirs are still aliveBecause other Kingsguard were at the Trident and at the Red Keep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nQthing Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Elia was his first and legal wife, her son was the current heir. Cersei had Roberts bastards all killed but Elia is gunna just sit back and be OK with Rhaegar having new kids with another high born lady?It wouldn't be the first time a targ had a bastard or a love affair. Targs do what they want, when they want to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Rhaegar died on the trident and Hightower, whent and dayne were not there to protect the heir. Aerys and aegon (supposedly) died during the sack of kings landing and thy weren't there either. They weren't at SE and they weren't with viserys or the queen. So why protect lyanna and a possible son if the king and other 3 heirs are still aliveMartell, Darry and Selmy were at the Trident with Rhaegar. Jaime was in KL with Aerys, Aegon and Viserys. All bases are covered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Rhaegar died on the trident and Hightower, whent and dayne were not there to protect the heir. Aerys and aegon (supposedly) died during the sack of kings landing and thy weren't there either. They weren't at SE and they weren't with viserys or the queen. So why protect lyanna and a possible son if the king and other 3 heirs are still aliveBecause they were ordered to do so, and the king was still protected by four other Kingsguard knights.Why is this so hard for people to understand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Elia was his first and legal wife, her son was the current heir. Cersei had Roberts bastards all killed but Elia is gunna just sit back and be OK with Rhaegar having new kids with another high born lady?Cersei had Robert's bastards killed so they couldn't be used as evidence of her infidelity. Her child was also not the trueborn heir, while Elia's was. Hardly the same situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Spanish_Inquisition Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 The conversation goes something like:Ned: You weren't at the Trident with Rhaegar.KG: NoNed: You weren't in KL with AerysKG: NoNed: You are not at Dragonstone with ViserysKG: NoNed: You haven't bent the knee to RobertKG: No[you see how this is a conversation where everyone already knows the status of everyone else. Neither Ned or the KG are imparting any new knowledge. This exchange is for us]KG: The Kingsguard does not flee. Then or now. We swore a vow. [direct quotes]So...These three men still consider themselves to be Kingsguard, they are still following their vows to protect the king. Yet as we have seen, they are not/were not with any of the men or boys who we know could be king (Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon, Viserys, Robert). So how can they still claim to be following their vows? Because someone else is king and they are with him now.OK, that exchange is pretty much how I remember it.I get what you're saying (and you're probably right), but since we have no idea whatsoever what vow they're referring to here, we just really don't know. They might be referring to their vow to keep the King safe, as you say, or a vow never to flee in the face of danger, or a vow to obey their orders regardless of the consequences, or what have you.Without additional detail, that scene is just not a clincher for me of the jon is a legitimate targ theory. The way I read it is still a "get lost or die, Ned Stark" conversation. On the face of it, I'm happy to leave it with they were told to stay, and they stayed. I never saw any need to try to dissect what vow they may be referencing.IIRC correctly we have no examples of the actual words sworn by a Kingsguard member, correct? So we have no idea what they're swearing except the small bit we get from Jaime, who says they make you swear so many things that you can barely keep them straight in your head (although not all of those things may be specific to the KG, I don't know). So we have no idea what kind of small details might be included in whatever they're made to say to accept the white cloak.*Edited to clarify that this doesn't convince me that he's legitimate, but I do still think R+L=J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nQthing Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Because other Kingsguard were at the Trident and at the Red Keep.Yeah, other KG but not dayne and Hightower who were probably the most skilled with a sword at the time. Wouldn't you want those people on a battlefield? That's like keeping your queen back during the entire game in chess.I do think R+L=J true but unless rhaegar believed his unborn son (Jon) was the ptwp and the song of Ice and fire then I don't see why the 3KG were at the ToJ and not anywhere else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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