Maybe R+L=J is not true?

[nQthing]

IIRC doesn't the LC of the KG lead the battle during the war? They made note that Hightower stepped aside from leading the war against the brotherhood because he was injured. Why wouldn't the LC lead the war against a major threat like Roberts rebellion

[RoamingRonin]

Why would Rhaegar build the ToJ in Dorne (his wife at the time home land) and why would Doran send Troops to aid him after he's done so? Rhaegar's supposedly been "away" with Lyanna for like 9 months, I imagine word would have gotten to Doran his sister has been dishonored. What if Lyanna's suitor was one of the Kings Guard (several of whom were from Dorne) and were also at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Maybe Rhaegar interpreted the prophecy for Lyanna and KG(X) and set up the whole thing. It is a "Song of Ice and Fire", not Wolves and Dragons, maybe the "fire" represents a Sun or fallen star? And a Martell or Dayne is the father of Lyanna's baby (Jon), Which would explain Arthur Dayne being at the ToJ or Lewyn Martell fighting for Rhaegar.

The dragons represent fire and the wolves represent ice because they are from the north where House Stark rules. Of course you know their words by now: Winter is Coming.

Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna for a multitude of reasons -- it's possible he kidnapped Lyanna to incite a civil war that would result in his father's removal from the throne.

Lastly, R+L=J is true.

Did GRRM finally confirm it? Link?

[House Martell]

?!?

I just gave you the detailed run down on the evidence that they were married. The KG are still there at ToJ because they were married making Jon the legitimate heir, that is the very strong evidence for it.

There are only two realistically possible options. They were married and Jon is their legitimate baby, or Aegon was at ToJ. Aegon being at TJ is extremely unlikely, but not entirely impossible and if giving every possible option against R=L=J (and them being married) cannot be ruled out entirely.

Live-Aegon, in this discussion, is not really relevant but is the 0.01% chance that gives an alternate explanation for the KG presence at ToJ that does not require R+L to be married

As your run down so deftly describes, the KG at the ToJ prob didn't know the full extent of events until that moment that Ned told them, so their presence at the ToJ doesn't really prove anything. It's not like Ned tells them what happened and they would go "Oh excuse us we have to leave now", Of course they were going to stay and fight.

A possibility I am trying to flush out is if the KG were there for a "higher" purpose, to guard PtwP, whether he was Rhaegars biological, legitimate, or whatever son. These dudes were pretty serious about their vows so how would Rhaegars orders to defend the ToJ (whoever was inside) and to always guard the King mesh? Is that the new King was inside the only possible explanation, or was it that they had already abandoned Aerys and were acting as if Rhaegar was the current king? I still personally think its a pretty big assumption that based on centuries old practice of polygamy that Rhaegar would or could marry Lyanna.

I agree with most that the current most likely possibility is R=L=J, but there are parts of it that don't sit right with me and I don't believe it is the for gone conclusion that some make it out to be.

[The guy from the Vale]

As your run down so deftly describes, the KG at the ToJ prob didn't know the full extent of events until that moment that Ned told them, so their presence at the ToJ doesn't really prove anything. It's not like Ned tells them what happened and they would go "Oh excuse us we have to leave now", Of course they were going to stay and fight.

A possibility I am trying to flush out is if the KG were there for a "higher" purpose, to guard PtwP, whether he was Rhaegars biological, legitimate, or whatever son. These dudes were pretty serious about their vows so how would Rhaegars orders to defend the ToJ (whoever was inside) and to always guard the King mesh? Is that the new King was inside the only possible explanation, or was it that they had already abandoned Aerys and were acting as if Rhaegar was the current king? I still personally think its a pretty big assumption that based on centuries old practice of polygamy that Rhaegar would or could marry Lyanna.

I agree with most that the current most likely possibility is R=L=J, but there are parts of it that don't sit right with me and I don't believe it is the for gone conclusion that some make it out to be.

Actually, Ned is giving them a cop-out. He doesn't want to fight them, so he gives them the opportunity to go to Dragonstone. They refuse. That's the entire point of that dialogue (well, except giving us a massive hint about Jon's legitimacy But it's the entire in-world point of it).

[Sorlain]

While the theory itself has far too much evidence to really disprove, I'm still holding out hope that he's still a bastard. Firstly because the alleged fairy tale romance between Rhaegar and Lyanna makes me want to leap off a cliff, and secondly because it would be far too convenient. It's nonetheless a very good plot twist, kinda pissed that the forums spoiled it for me.

[Aegon's Landing]

The conversation goes something like:

Ned: You weren't at the Trident with Rhaegar.

KG: No

Ned: You weren't in KL with Aerys

KG: No

Ned: You are not at Dragonstone with Viserys

KG: No

Ned: You haven't bent the knee to Robert

KG: No

[you see how this is a conversation where everyone already knows the status of everyone else. Neither Ned or the KG are imparting any new knowledge. This exchange is for us]

KG: The Kingsguard does not flee. Then or now. We swore a vow. [direct quotes]

So...These three men still consider themselves to be Kingsguard, they are still following their vows to protect the king. Yet as we have seen, they are not/were not with any of the men or boys who we know could be king (Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon, Viserys, Robert). So how can they still claim to be following their vows?

Because someone else is king and they are with him now

.

Well summed. The quote that answers and supports your summation in a nustshell is the last part about Willem Derry:

Ned: "Ser Willem has fled to Dragonstone with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him"

Ser Oswald: "Ser Willem is a good man, and true."

"But NOT of the KING'SGUARD" Ser Gerold pointed out."

Viserys should have been escorted by all of the White Cloaks if he were King, which he would have been, had not R+L=J. A legit J, at that.

[NotYetRegistered]

The Kingsguard knew that Rhaegar and his children by Ellia as well as Aerys were all dead. At that point their duty is to protect the current King which assuming that Jon is just a bastard would be Viserys. Ned even calls them out on this and they respond "the Kingsguard does not flee". They were protecting the current King because Jon was Rhaegar's oldest surving legitmate son.

Well yeah, but wasn't Jon just born when Ned arrived? How would they have known he would be a boy and not a girl during their time there? In the large case the child would've been a girl, Viserys would be the rightful king and he would've been abandoned by the Kingsguard.

[What Is Dead Already Died]

Also J would still be a bastard regardless if its N+? or R+J, and thus not heir.

R: "I may die, but you must remain to protect the tower of joy."

[Dragonfish]

That's not evidence. That's a theory assuming that the KG acted upon law. What if the KG acted upon Rhaegar's orders and didn't give a shit to "one KG must remain beside the legal king all the time".

The Kingsguard directly state that they are sticking to their vow by staying there. So it is not an assumption that they are acting upon law, it's a fact.

Things happened very fast, kings died every day and the three KG at ToJ didn't know anything about the other four KG or what they were doing. Did they even know Rhaegar was defeated/Aerys was killed/ Aegon or NotAegon was smashed against the wall/Viserys was on the run with the Queen?

If they didn't know before Ned arrived, they knew when he told them, yet they still insist that their place is at the tower.

Of course there's a chance they were married but this KG thing doesn't prove anything. Rhaegar ordered them to stay with Lyanna and it's not like they would say, okay, byebye Lyanna, Rhaegar died so we are off to protect the new king while Lyanna was in the middle of delivering Rhaegar's son, trueborn or bastard...

It's not like the two options are mutually exclusive. As I've explained before, they could have easily sent one or two of their number to Dragonstone while the rest stayed with Lyanna at the tower. Intead, however, every single one of them stayed with Lyanna, knowingly leaving the boy who was supposed to be their king without Kingsguard protection.

Edric Storm was a bastard too and yet given all protection and noble life at Dragonstone. He was even as arrogant as Joffrey. Okay, not that arrogant, but still.

This example is not relevant. The fact that a bastard might receive some special treatment by his royal father or uncle is not what is at issue here. The question we are posing is why the Kingsguard would have chosen to protect a bastard over their king, when said king had absolutely no kingsguard protection.

[Dragonfish]

Also J would still be a bastard regardless if its N+? or R+J, and thus not heir.

You really need to read this thread before posting in it further.

[Cedius]

Even if Jon happens to be R+L, how does this change anything? I'm just curious. He is of the Night's Watch now and has an Oath.

[Dragonfish]

Well yeah, but wasn't Jon just born when Ned arrived? How would they have known he would be a boy and not a girl during their time there? In the large case the child would've been a girl, Viserys would be the rightful king and he would've been abandoned by the Kingsguard.

In real-life monarchies, the protocol in such a situation would usually be to wait at least nine months to see what the sex of the child would be before automatically declaring the deceased prince's brother the heir. It's likely that similar protocol exists in Westeros.

[Dragonfish]

Did GRRM finally confirm it? Link?

No, that was just a comment that was intended to be a humorously direct response to the OP's question (i.e. maybe R+L=J is not true?), but clearly it didn't come across that way.

[Dragonfish]

To be fair, other posters have suggested that if Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard its only because it was the life that Ned chose for Jon when he decided to raise him as his own son. Under this interpretation, the fact that Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard does not mean that Rhaegar and Lyanna were not legally married when she gave birth to Jon.

Well, more precisely, the alternative interpretation is not that Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard, it's that he is prompted to think of Jon when thinking about other bastards because that is the life he has "doomed" him to.

However, this interpretation relies on the crucial assumption that Jon is legitimate. Unfortunately, it appears to me that the passage referenced above does not support such an assumption; to the contrary, it explicitly contradicts it.

This is circular reasoning. We have two possible interpretations of the passage above, yet you claim yours is the correct one because...it's the correct one. Whah?

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Was Jon the legitimate heir, though? As I have posted in other threads, this passage from page 380 of GoT leads me to believe that Ned believes Jon is a bastard:

"She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart right out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so much like a younger version of his own. If the God's frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? 'Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?'"

Remember, Ned had just met Barra, one of Robert's bastards just moments before. The most reasonable interpretation of this passage is that Ned thinks Jon is a bastard. If Ned believes this is so, why should the rest of us?

To be fair, other posters have suggested that if Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard its only because it was the life that Ned chose for Jon when he decided to raise him as his own son. Under this interpretation, the fact that Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard does not mean that Rhaegar and Lyanna were not legally married when she gave birth to Jon. However, this interpretation relies on the crucial assumption that Jon is legitimate. Unfortunately, it appears to me that the passage referenced above does not support such an assumption; to the contrary, it explicitly contradicts it.

Your viewpoint has been addressed in the R+L=J thread, and it seems obvious to me that this is not evidence that Ned considers Jon to be a bastard.

The passage can also contradict your viewpoint. It all depends on how you read the passage.

As your run down so deftly describes, the KG at the ToJ prob didn't know the full extent of events until that moment that Ned told them, so their presence at the ToJ doesn't really prove anything. It's not like Ned tells them what happened and they would go "Oh excuse us we have to leave now", Of course they were going to stay and fight.

A possibility I am trying to flush out is if the KG were there for a "higher" purpose, to guard PtwP, whether he was Rhaegars biological, legitimate, or whatever son. These dudes were pretty serious about their vows so how would Rhaegars orders to defend the ToJ (whoever was inside) and to always guard the King mesh? Is that the new King was inside the only possible explanation, or was it that they had already abandoned Aerys and were acting as if Rhaegar was the current king? I still personally think its a pretty big assumption that based on centuries old practice of polygamy that Rhaegar would or could marry Lyanna.

I agree with most that the current most likely possibility is R=L=J, but there are parts of it that don't sit right with me and I don't believe it is the for gone conclusion that some make it out to be.

The KG were aware that Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon were dead. They no longer had a duty to any of those people, so their duty would have been to Viserys. They were told that Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, but they chose to stay and fight. This would have been considered treason, unless Jon is legitimate.

The KG would have not cared if Jon was the TPTWP, because it did not concern them. They are the KG, and obviously took their vows very seriously. They were there to protect the king, nothing more. It is wildly accepted that this is Jon, but whoever it was he was the king. Pure and simple.

It is not a pretty big assumption that Rhaegar would marry Lyanna. Rhaegar was obsessed with the prophecies surrounding his family. He needed more than two legitimate children, and was determined to fulfill his wishes. Elia could no longer bear children, and had no great love for Rhaegar, nor he Elia. According to the novels, Rhaegar loved Lyanna. I seriously doubt he would have hidden Lyanna if she had been impregnated with a baseborn child.

Well yeah, but wasn't Jon just born when Ned arrived? How would they have known he would be a boy and not a girl during their time there? In the large case the child would've been a girl, Viserys would be the rightful king and he would've been abandoned by the Kingsguard.

There were other Kingsguard members with Viserys, until they were certain.

Even if Jon happens to be R+L, how does this change anything? I'm just curious. He is of the Night's Watch now and has an Oath.

You should read a few of the R+L=J threads if possible. It could be pretty significant, or it could change nothing. Also, the Night's Watch could be disbanded, or Jon's vows could be considered invalid.

[Dragonfish]

Even if Jon happens to be R+L, how does this change anything? I'm just curious. He is of the Night's Watch now and has an Oath.

R+L=J means Jon could be the Prince Who Was Promised/Azor Ahai Reborn, or one of the heads of the dragon.

[House Martell]

The KG were aware that Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon were dead. They no longer had a duty to any of those people, so their duty would have been to Viserys. They were told that Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, but they chose to stay and fight. This would have been considered treason, unless Jon is legitimate.

How do you know it was their choice, Ned and his companions came there for a reason. Perhaps they felt they had no choice but to fight their way out. Or they simply felt they were doing the "Knightly" thing and defending a woman and her new born. I said this before but I'll repeat it. In what world does Ned show up and have his conversation with the KG and they just pick up and leave, even if Visarys is King now?

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

How do you know it was their choice, Ned and his companions came there for a reason. Perhaps they felt they had no choice but to fight their way out. Or they simply felt they were doing the "Knightly" thing and defending a woman and her new born. I said this before but I'll repeat it. In what world does Ned show up and have his conversation with the KG and they just pick up and leave, even if Visarys is King now?

This has already been addressed, but...

Ned did not want to fight them, and reminded them of their duty to the current king. They chose to stay, because they felt they were carrying out their duty. They were more than knight's...they were the KINGSGUARD, and their duty is to the king. In the world of, "A Song of Ice and Fire", the Kingsguard would not have chosen to sacrifice themselves for nothing, if their duty was to a king that was not there.

Either way, what would be 'knightly' about protecting a woman and her bastard child from her own brother that only wishes for her safe return home, especially since Rhaegar was dead? In what world does this make sense?

[Maxpey]

Well, more precisely, the alternative interpretation is not that Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard, it's that he is prompted to think of Jon when thinking about other bastards because that is the life he has "doomed" him to.

This is circular reasoning. We have two possible interpretations of the passage above, yet you claim yours is the correct one because...it's the correct one. Whah?

I have to disagree that it's circular reasoning.

In my opinion, the most reasonable interpretation of the passage is that Ned believes Jon is a bastard.

Your interpretation that Ned thinks of Jon when he thinks of others bastards "because that is the life he doomed him to" only works if one assumes that Ned believes Jon is legitimate.

However, where does this assumption come from?

That assumption can't come from the passage itself because, as I stated in my post, it strongly suggests that Ned believes the opposite, that Jon is a bastard.

If you think it does, then we will just have to disagree.

[House Martell]

Either way, what would be 'knightly' about protecting a woman and her bastard child from her own brother that only wishes for her safe return home, especially since Rhaegar was dead? In what world does this make sense?

You can't have it both ways. Either Ned is a threat or he's not. You can't say the KG were there to protect the King and they could have left if they needed to because they didn't fear Ned, which one is it?