Maybe R+L=J is not true?

[Dragonfish]

So the 3 KG left KL in search of Rhaegar without knowing where he was? I find that highly unlikely.

Well, it's actually possible that at least one of the Kingsguard was already with Rhaegar. The only one we know was in King's Landing while Rhaegar was away is Hightower. The other two could have been with him the whole time. Knowing this, it would have been simple for Hightower to ask about their whereabouts around Starfall, and to be directed to the Tower of Joy.

And my understanding is the KG answer to the king.

Strictly speaking this is true, but the king may also extend Kingsguard protection to his family members, who in turn would surely have the right to give the Kingsguard orders (as long as those orders don't supercede those of the king's).

Yes they can be used to defend his family but ultimately if Aerys sent them to go get Rhaegar and Lyanna and they follow the king without fail then they should have brought them back to KL.

Well, they succeeded in getting Rhaegar back to King's Landing, didn't they? Depending on how Aerys' order was worded, it may not have been necessary for them to come back with him. Or, as another poster suggested in the regular R+L=J thread, Rhaegar may have agreed to come back to King's Landing only on the condition that the three Kingsguard stay with Lyanna at the tower. Under those circumstances, the Kingsguard would have had essentially no choice (short of kidnapping Rhaegar) but to do as Rhaegar wanted, if they wished to fulfill Aerys' order of getting him back to King's Landing.

If they instead took their orders from Rhaegar (not the King at the time) then again as I said it opens the possibility of simply following Rhaegars commands and not their solemn vow to defend the king.

Yes, the possibility certainly exists that they were there in the first place due to an order from Rhaegar. But as I have said about a million times already, that still does not explain why they stayed there even after Rhaegar, Aerys, and Aegon died and their supposed new king was in danger and without Kingsguard protection. In that situation, they would have, according to you, decided to follow their vow to follow Rhaegar's orders over their vow to protect the king. This scenario simply does not make sense, in my view.

[Dragonfish]

But what if they didn't know Aerys was dead until Ned tells them, and also there is no mention in the scene at the ToJ of Aegon (who would come after Rhaegar).

I have already addressed this in post #195, and numerous other posts before it.

You say: "no one in KL knew where Rhaegar was or how to reach him." so how can we assume news has reached the KG of all the details of the war?

Because Rhaegar would have been deliberately out of touch so as to stay in hiding, while the Kingsguard would not have had such self-imposed limitations.

[Sasha Steelsong]

But what if they didn't know Aerys was dead until Ned tells them, and also there is no mention in the scene at the ToJ of Aegon (who would come after Rhaegar). You say: "no one in KL knew where Rhaegar was or how to reach him." so how can we assume news has reached the KG of all the details of the war?

Because their answers suggest that Ned's news is not new to them, that is how we know. And even if they are just finding out...upon finding out that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon are dead, their duty would be to get to Viserys - not stay and fight to the death. How do we know that? Well because if Viserys is the King and they have just been told he's running for his life, then their duty is to leave and Ned made clear he would let them do just that...leave and go to Viserys. Instead they say their duty is still there.

[madmonkey]

Again I think R+J=L is most likely. But I can't understand the rancor at simply exploring other possibilities. And no I'm not looking to be spoon fed anything, I'm giving GRRM the credit of having surprised me in the past and being an unconventional author. I really don't expect him to have Aragorn/Luke Skywalker(Jon) ride in and save the day in the end.

Its funny that you made a Luke Skywalker reference.

What did you ask him about in return?

You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow's real parents were, and he told me. I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. It will all come to fruition eventually.

The Alfie Allen Interview is discussed here. I havent read the last couple pages of this thread, but I don't remember you exploring many other possibilities (probably cause there aren't many others with enough evidence). Seems to me your're just nitpicking other peoples reasons with questions that can't definitely be answered without explicit information form GRRM.

[House Martell]

If no one of royal blood was inside the tower, and they still remained at the ToJ once Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon were dead they would be in violation of their vows.

My point wasn't about KG protection. it was about KG loyalty. Lyanna would have been a valuable hostage for Aerys and if the KG were working solely on the kings behalf they would not have kept her secret from him. So they are capable of violating their vows was what I was getting at.

[House Martell]

Viserys is the King and they have just been told he's running for his life, then their duty is to leave and Ned made clear he would let them do just that...leave and go to Viserys. Instead they say their duty is still there.

They're told Visarys is fled to Dragon Stone and their reply is basically "good, that's the right thing to do". And then they fight and kill most of the guys who were part of the force behind killing the last 3 kings (Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon). So if the KG fighting at the Trident is them fulfilling their vows how is trying to take out these guys also not fulfilling their vows, as has been stated by others Ned could be easily be seen as a threat to a Targaryan king, whether it's Visarys or Jon. Ned's willing to let them go so he can get his sister but they do not flee, they will not let the "usurpers dog" go free to threaten the king in the future....

[Dragonfish]

My point wasn't about KG protection. it was about KG loyalty. Lyanna would have been a valuable hostage for Aerys and if the KG were working solely on the kings behalf they would not have kept her secret from him.

They wouldn't keep it secret from him if he asked them directly, but they wouldn't necessarily volunteer that info either.

They're told Visarys is fled to Dragon Stone and their reply is basically "good, that's the right thing to do". And then they fight and kill most of the guys who were part of the force behind killing the last 3 kings (Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon). So if the KG fighting at the Trident is them fulfilling their vows how is trying to take out these guys also not fulfilling their vows, as has been stated by others Ned could be easily be seen as a threat to a Targaryan king, whether it's Visarys or Jon. Ned's willing to let them go so he can get his sister but they do not flee, they will not let the "usurpers dog" go free to threaten the king in the future....

Viserys had bigger things to worry about than Ned Stark and six of his men being in the middle of the Dornish Marches. He was essentially banished to Dragonstone with only a few loyal men to guard him, and was soon to be under siege. For these Kingsguard members to think that it was more important to fight Ned and possibly die in the process, rather than to, say, send at least one of their number to Dragonstone to make sure Viserys had a Kingsguard knight at his side, well, I think that would be an incredibly stupid interpretation of their oaths.

[House Martell]

For these Kingsguard members to think that it was more important to fight Ned and possibly die in the process, rather than to, say, send at least one of their number to Dragonstone to make sure Viserys had a Kingsguard knight at his side, well, I think that would be an incredibly stupid interpretation of their oaths.

They had no idea Howland Reed was a Green Ninja, they prob thought they would blow right through those 7 fools and be on their way.

What if the kid in the tower was Daynes? A+L=J, and what if Rhaegar told them the kid was PtwP and that they need to above all other vows protect him. That doesn't make him King, it just makes him PtwP, more important to save the world than rule the relm.

[Dragonfish]

They had no idea Howland Reed was a Green Ninja, they prob thought they would blow right through those 7 fools and be on their way.

Seven against three is terrible odds, no matter how good a fighter you are.

What if the kid in the tower was Daynes? A+L=J, and what if Rhaegar told them the kid was PtwP and that they need to above all other vows protect him. That doesn't make him King, it just makes him PtwP, more important to save the world than rule the relm.

I don't think this is possible, for several reasons:

1) I doubt Jon is Arthur Dayne's, because that would contradict the symbolism of the blue rose, which links Lyanna and Rhaegar together. It also doesn't really make sense to me that Ned would hide Jon's true parentage if Ser Arthur was the father.

2) If Jon is Arthur's then he can't be the PwwP, at least if the woods witch's prophecy about the PwwP coming from Aerys and Rhaella's line is true. Plus, how exactly could he be a prince if he was only Arthur's son?

3) Even if Jon is the PwwP, that still doesn't give the Kingsguard a reason to protect him, because their vow is to protect the king. All other goals, however benevolent they may be, are subordinate to this vow.

[House Martell]

Seven against three is terrible odds, no matter how good a fighter you are.

I don't think this is possible, for several reasons:

1) I doubt Jon is Arthur Dayne's, because that would contradict the symbolism of the blue rose, which links Lyanna and Rhaegar together. It also doesn't really make sense to me that Ned would hide Jon's true parentage if Ser Arthur was the father.

2) If Jon is Arthur's then he can't be the PwwP, at least if the woods witch's prophecy about the PwwP coming from Aerys and Rhaella's line is true. Plus, how exactly could he be a prince if he was only Arthur's son?

3) Even if Jon is the PwwP, that still doesn't give the Kingsguard a reason to protect him, because their vow is to protect the king. All other goals, however benevolent they may be, are subordinate to this vow.

yep you're right

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

My point wasn't about KG protection. it was about KG loyalty. Lyanna would have been a valuable hostage for Aerys and if the KG were working solely on the kings behalf they would not have kept her secret from him. So they are capable of violating their vows was what I was getting at.

No, the Kingsguard is meant to protect/serve the king and the royal family, only in this context are they loyal. They do not involve themselves in political politics, unless ordered to do so.

They're told Visarys is fled to Dragon Stone and their reply is basically "good, that's the right thing to do". And then they fight and kill most of the guys who were part of the force behind killing the last 3 kings (Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon). So if the KG fighting at the Trident is them fulfilling their vows how is trying to take out these guys also not fulfilling their vows, as has been stated by others Ned could be easily be seen as a threat to a Targaryan king, whether it's Visarys or Jon. Ned's willing to let them go so he can get his sister but they do not flee, they will not let the "usurpers dog" go free to threaten the king in the future....

If they were protecting Viserys they would have been with Viserys, not guarding the ToJ. And they would not have responded stating that Ser Willem was not of the Kingsguard when Ned said he was with Viserys.

[corbon]

They're told Visarys is fled to Dragon Stone and their reply is basically "good, that's the right thing to do". And then they fight and kill most of the guys who were part of the force behind killing the last 3 kings (Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon). So if the KG fighting at the Trident is them fulfilling their vows how is trying to take out these guys also not fulfilling their vows, as has been stated by others Ned could be easily be seen as a threat to a Targaryan king, whether it's Visarys or Jon. Ned's willing to let them go so he can get his sister but they do not flee, they will not let the "usurpers dog" go free to threaten the king in the future....

Because their first duty is to have someone with the King. Everything else is a secondary duty. Killing Ned et al is a secondary duty.

If they risk death on a secondary duty over fulfilling a primary duty then they are not keeping their vows.

Do you understand this fundamental point? Because its been pointed out several times already and you seem to have basically ignored it?

[Ygrain]

I do not claim that the KG necessarily stayed at ToJ to avoid Aerys' orders but I think that the option cannot be entirely ruled out. With Lyanna's betrothed and brother leading the Rebellion, it was essential that Aerys didn't his paws on her, and if KG returned with Rhaegar to KL, they could be ordered to disclose all they knew and they would have to obey. If Aerys didn't explicitely order them to return with Rhaegar, then they could stay at ToJ at Rhaegar's order, simply following "the chain of command". As we could see in the books, they basically 1) obey the King, 2) obey royal family members, unless in conflict with 1), 3) obey Regent/Hand unless in conflict with 1) and 2).

The ToJ dilemma then can be described as follows:

1) Viserys is king and has no KG with him

2)KG are at ToJ while keeping their vows

3)The first and foremost law of the KG is that at least one of them must always be with the king, except for the time when the situation demands that all of them confer, and that for the shortest time possible

If 3) applies, then either 1) or 2) cannot be true - either the KG have broken their vows, or Viserys is not king. Yet, they claim that they keep their vows, and they are presented as a shining example of duty and honour, so if they are saying that they keep their vows, they do. Therefore, the untrue part must be 1) and Viserys is not king.

Could the KG be keeping their vows because they have shifted their loyalties to Rhaegar? That would make the whole thing rather tricky. However, I do not think that this is the case: they make very clear that they consider Jaime a traitor and that they would have carried out their duty to protect Aerys, even though they knew he was a murderous psychopath.

Besides, the line of succession still makes this whole point moot: even if they considered Rhaegar their king in all but name, Viserys is STILL Rhaegar's only surviving heir.... meaning, his protection takes priority over protecting Lyanna, even though it may have been Rhaegar's order.

[Maxpey]

I do not claim that the KG necessarily stayed at ToJ to avoid Aerys' orders but I think that the option cannot be entirely ruled out. With Lyanna's betrothed and brother leading the Rebellion, it was essential that Aerys didn't his paws on her, and if KG returned with Rhaegar to KL, they could be ordered to disclose all they knew and they would have to obey. If Aerys didn't explicitely order them to return with Rhaegar, then they could stay at ToJ at Rhaegar's order, simply following "the chain of command". As we could see in the books, they basically 1) obey the King, 2) obey royal family members, unless in conflict with 1), 3) obey Regent/Hand unless in conflict with 1) and 2).

The ToJ dilemma then can be described as follows:

1) Viserys is king and has no KG with him

2)KG are at ToJ while keeping their vows

3)The first and foremost law of the KG is that at least one of them must always be with the king, except for the time when the situation demands that all of them confer, and that for the shortest time possible

If 3) applies, then either 1) or 2) cannot be true - either the KG have broken their vows, or Viserys is not king. Yet, they claim that they keep their vows, and they are presented as a shining example of duty and honour, so if they are saying that they keep their vows, they do. Therefore, the untrue part must be 1) and Viserys is not king.

Could the KG be keeping their vows because they have shifted their loyalties to Rhaegar? That would make the whole thing rather tricky. However, I do not think that this is the case: they make very clear that they consider Jaime a traitor and that they would have carried out their duty to protect Aerys, even though they knew he was a murderous psychopath.

Besides, the line of succession still makes this whole point moot: even if they considered Rhaegar their king in all but name, Viserys is STILL Rhaegar's only surviving heir.... meaning, his protection takes priority over protecting Lyanna, even though it may have been Rhaegar's order.

Those are all good points.

But I do have a couple of questions, and I apologize if these issues have already been addressed.

These questions assume the following: The 3 Kingsguard at the TOJ swore an oath to Rhaegar that they would not leave Lyanna and the unborn Jon.

Now, once Rhaegar died would this oath have terminated? If so, can somebody provide supporting passages in the text that describe the duties of the Kinsguard?

If it didn't, then that would provide an alternate explanation for their presence that does not necessarily require that Jon be the rightful heir.

Once again, I apologize if this issue has been addressed, but in reading through the posts I didn't see it.

[Maxpey]

You misunderstand me...

When I say fact, I mean fact. I am not referring to the Kingsguard being at the ToJ. I made a general statement.

The Kingsguard being present at the ToJ is definitely open to interpretation, but you must provide a valid basis for the argument. You cannot attack someone for making supported assumptions, if your counter argument does not provide supported assumptions.

You are correct.

[Toccs]

Those are all good points.

But I do have a couple of questions, and I apologize if these issues have already been addressed.

These questions assume the following: The 3 Kingsguard at the TOJ swore an oath to Rhaegar that they would not leave Lyanna and the unborn Jon.

Now, once Rhaegar died would this oath have terminated? If so, can somebody provide supporting passages in the text?

If it didn't, then that would provide an alternate explanation for their presence that does not necessarily require that Jon be the rightful heir.

Once again, I apologize if this issue has been addressed, but in reading through the posts I didn't see it.

If Lyanna is just a woman Rhaegar slept with and Jon is just a bastard and the 3 Kingsguard are only there folloing Rhaegar's orders, then technically no Rhaegar dying is not in itself a reason for them to leave. But if Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon are all dead and Viserys is indeed the King and is without Kingsguard protection, then that is a reason why at least 1 of them should leave.

Ned specifaclly mentions that he assumed they would be with Viserys and they respond "the Kingsguard does not flee". It is important that they respond that way to the question of Viserys, because if he is the rightful King, then by leaving him alone on Dragonstone and hiding at the Tower of Joy they are indeed fleeing.

[Maxpey]

If Lyanna is just a woman Rhaegar slept with and Jon is just a bastard and the 3 Kingsguard are only there folloing Rhaegar's orders, then technically no Rhaegar dying is not in itself a reason for them to leave. But if Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon are all dead and Viserys is indeed the King and is without Kingsguard protection, then that is a reason why at least 1 of them should leave.

Ned specifaclly mentions that he assumed they would be with Viserys and they respond "the Kingsguard does not flee". It is important that they respond that way to the question of Viserys, because if he is the rightful King, then by leaving him alone on Dragonstone and hiding at the Tower of Joy they are indeed fleeing.

I understand that. I am not saying your inferences are unreasonable.

But the problem that I see is with the assumption that Rhaegar's death relieved the Kingsguard of any oaths that they swore to him. I feel that if someone can provide support for this assumption in the text, it would essentially confirm that they believed that Jon was the rightful heir.

Also, do we know when Robert became King?

If it happened before Jon's birth, then technically the Kingsguard's allegiance should have automatically transferred to Robert.

[The WarHammer]

What does ToJ stand for

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

What does ToJ stand for

Tower of Joy, good sir.

[Maxpey]

What does ToJ stand for

Warhammer- great name.