Maybe R+L=J is not true?

[House Martell]

What reason would he have to discard his old family?

Why would he start a new one?

[Dragonfish]

Just a quick note: Rhaegar was actually most likely absent for at most a few months during the war, not 9 months.

Didn't Ned find out where Lyanna was only after Ashara told him? It wasn't public knowledge.

We don't know how Ned found out where Lyanna was. The Ashara thing is just a popular fan theory.

[Dragonfish]

No Robert was going to war once Lyanna was kidnapped, Jon Aryan only became involved after Aerys called for Ned & Rob's head

Uh, no, you've got it backwards. No banners were raised after Lyanna was supposedly kidnapped. Robert didn't rise in rebellion until Aerys called for his and Ned's heads.

Why would he start a new one?

Because he needed another child, which Elia could not provide.

Now answer my question.

[House Martell]

Because the KG are with the king. Obviously there is someone else who is the king, someone who at the ToJ, someone who Ned does not yet know about.

Lyanna is a secret Targ and a man?

[Toccs]

No Robert was going to war once Lyanna was kidnapped, Jon Aryan only became involved after Aerys called for Ned & Rob's head

I think that if Robert had been determined to go to war the moment Lyanna was kidnapped then he would have ridden to King's Landing alongside Brandon. The war only started when Aerys called for Robert and Ned's heads and Jon Arryn refused and declared war.

[nQthing]

OK so Rhaegar wanted the child protected but what proof do we have that he actually sired it? Sure it's speculation but so is R+L=J, Maybe he was trying to protect his KG's honor or just wanted to keep the child a secret because of its importance (PtwP)

I think a lot of this had to do with what ever rhaegar read when he was young and decided he needed to be a knight. He used to think he was the ptwp but then realized he wasn't. He also believes that the dragon needs three heads. After conceiving rhaenys and aegon, Elia couldn't give birth, so rhaegar needed to find another to give birth to the third head of the dragon. It's not uncommon for targs to have baseborn children, so why do people find it weird that rhaegar might be Jon's dad? Maybe rhaegar read a prophecy that is unknown to readers as of now, maybe he read of the song of ice and fire. Lyanna (ice) + rhaegar (fire) = a song (Jon)

I don't like the idea of howland Reed or one of the stark brothers being the father of lyanna child, even though it would explain jons strong stark features. So I'm going to stick to the r+l=j

[House Martell]

Uh, no, you've got it backwards. No banners were raised after Lyanna was supposedly kidnapped. Robert didn't rise in rebellion until Aerys called for his and Ned's heads.

Because he needed another child, which Elia could not provide.

Now answer my question.

You're missing my point (maybe I was not clear), yes official banner raising and war declarations were not made until after Aerys called for Ned and Roberts heads, but Bran went to KL because his sister was not where she was supposed to be and Rhaegar was known to be involved, my point was it was widely known that somehow someway Rhaegar and Lyanna were together and that string of events lead to the rebellion, its not like she was his secret paramour Robert and no one knew about (Lewyn Martell had lady friends but it was not common knowledge)

I don't understand what I have to explain. Rhaegar had a wife, he then goes and has a relationship and impregnates a new lady. There can't be 2 queens and he obviously has a reason for wanting another child so for some reason he's not happy with the the other ones, in what scenario do Rhaegar, Elia, Lyanna, Rhaenys, Aegon. and Jon all live happily together in the Red Keep?

[Toccs]

I don't understand what I have to explain. Rhaegar had a wife, he then goes and has a relationship and impregnates a new lady. There can't be 2 queens and he obviously has a reason for wanting another child so for some reason he's not happy with the the other ones, in what scenario do Rhaegar, Elia, Lyanna, Rhaenys, Aegon. and Jon all live happily together in the Red Keep?

Why not? It had been done before.

Rhaegar wanting a third child does not need to mean that he was somehow unhappy with the other two.

[Dragonfish]

You're missing my point,

I don't think I am. You specifically said that Robert was going to war once Lyanna was kidnapped, and Jon Arryn only got involved later. This is, to put it simply, wrong. If you want to walk back this statement, then fine, but don't act like you were trying to say something else all along.

yes offical banner raising and war declarations were not made until after Aerys called for Ned and Roberts heads, but Bran went to KL because his sister was not where she was supposed to be and Rhaegar was know to be involved, my point was it was widely known that somehow someway Rhaegar and Lyanna were togther and that string of events lead to the rebellion, its not like she was his secret paramour Robert and no one knew about.

Sure, their relationship was publicly known, I never argued against that. But that doesn't mean everyone believed Lyanna was kidnapped.

I don't understand what I have to explain.

I wanted you to explain why you think Rhaegar would necessarily have to cast aside his first family after he married Lyanna.

There can't be 2 queens

Rhaenys and Visenya Targaryen would like to have a word with you.

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

Firstly, yes, and not to be rude, but you do seem to be ignorant of Westerosi (and RL) succession. Rhaegar and his line come after Aerys and Viserys only comes into play once all of Rhaegar's sons are dead.

Secondly, that whole conversation that Ned recalls in flaskback is not them telling him to go to hell. It is showing us that the KG are/were not with any of the men or boys who conceivably could be king (ie Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon, Viserys). Yet the KG do not flee (from their duty to protect the king)? How can these two things both be true? Because the KG are with the king. Obviously there is someone else who is the king, someone who at the ToJ, someone who Ned does not yet know about.

Yes, that's rude. There's a polite way to explain to someone that they're wrong about a detail, as Toccs did.

Ned questioned their purpose there, they gave him a vague, non-committal answer and then basically clammed up. If that's not telling him to keep his nose out of their business I don't know what is.

We don't know why the Kingsguard didn't flee. They were protecting the boy they thought was the new king, or they were just unfailingly loyal to the royal family and felt that protecting Lyanna as they had been ordered was the correct course of action for whatever as yet unrevealed reason. We don't know, and we won't until Mr. Martin tells us.

IMHO there's even less evidence proving Jon's legitimacy than there is that he's even the result of R+L. The only evidence for legitimacy seems to be the KG and the possible precedent for Targaryen polygamy, and that's pretty skimpy.

[Jem]

Yes, that's rude. There's a polite way to explain to someone that they're wrong about a detail, as Toccs did.

Ned questioned their purpose there, they gave him a vague, non-committal answer and then basically clammed up. If that's not telling him to keep his nose out of their business I don't know what is.

We don't know why the Kingsguard didn't flee. They were protecting the boy they thought was the new king, or they were just unfailingly loyal to the royal family and felt that protecting Lyanna as they had been ordered was the correct course of action for whatever as yet unrevealed reason. We don't know, and we won't until Mr. Martin tells us.

IMHO there's even less evidence proving Jon's legitimacy than there is that he's even the result of R+L. The only evidence for legitimacy seems to be the KG and the possible precedent for Targaryen polygamy, and that's pretty skimpy.

Sorry for hurting your feelings. But, again, not to be rude, I don't really think you understand the meaning and significance of Ned's conversation with the KG at the ToJ.

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

Sorry for hurting your feelings. But, again, not to be rude, I don't really think you understand the meaning and significance of Ned's conversation with the KG at the ToJ.

You didn't hurt my e-feelings.

One of the best things about a message board about a series as detailed as ASoIaF is that we're all bound to reach different conclusions and infer different meanings from the text.

If you'd like to contribute constructively, please feel free to enlighten me to the nuances you think I'm missing re: that conversation. I'll be the first to admit that I miss details, and I'm not being sarcastic here. Please, explain your POV to me. That's what discussion is all about. You gave your interpretation above but didn't provide any details about how you reached that conclusion so I really have nothing to go on.

I also don't have the book to hand at the moment, so I'm not able to reference on the smaller details and I'm doing this from memory.

[House Martell]

I don't think I am. You specifically said that Robert was going to war once Lyanna was kidnapped, and Jon Arryn only got involved later. This is, to put it simply, wrong. If you want to walk back this statement, then fine, but don't act like you were trying to say something else all along.

I wanted you to explain why you think Rhaegar would necessarily have to cast aside his first family after he married Lyanna.

Rhaenys and Visenya Targaryen would like to have a word with you.

I edited my previous statement to say I wasn't being clear, and amended it.

Rhaenys and Visenya were sisters, totally different situation. Has there ever been an example of 2 non-Targ simultaneous queens?

And even if this was Rhaegars intention what makes you think Lyanna would go along with that, she didn't strike me as the "one of many wifes" type. I know this is a fantasy series but are we to honestly believe that Rhaegar just walks up to Lyanna is is like:

Hey sweetness, you and I are going to make some seriously special babies, so how about you and I run off down south and get it on in this sweet tower I rented for the summer. Oh but don't tell my wife, unless of course you're into threesomes, in which case tell my wife please.

[Dragonfish]

Rhaenys and Visenya were sisters, totally different situation. Has there ever been an example of 2 non-Targ simultaneous queens?

Yes. Maegor the Cruel had eight or nine wives, some of them from non-Targaryen families (one of them was named Jeyne Westerling).

And even if this was Rhaegars intention what makes you think Lyanna would go along with that, she didn't strike me as the "one of many wifes" type.

I don't think she would have been one of many wives. She would would been one of two de jure wives, but, IMO, the only de facto wife. In other words, I think Elia would have remained Rhaegar's wife only in name, while Lyanna would be his true wife.

[Toccs]

Rhaenys and Visenya were sisters, totally different situation. Has there ever been an example of 2 non-Targ simultaneous queens?

And even if this was Rhaegars intention what makes you think Lyanna would go along with that, she didn't strike me as the "one of many wifes" type. I know this is a fantasy series but are we to honestly believe that Rhaegar just walks up to Lyanna is is like:

We don't know how Rhaegar intended it to play out. In my opinion the most likely outcome would be civil war between Aegon and Jon after Rhaegar's death.

But the situation was already complicated by Lyanna's betrothal. The fact that if left unckecked the situation would have been incrdibly complicated does not provide any counter evidence to the Kingsguard's prescence at the tower with baby Jon.

[Amitaibs3]

R+L=J is not like any other theory I've seen so far. If it is proven wrong, I'll be very disappointed and I believe it will make me like the series less.

Saying there are no proofs to this matter is just stupid... the number of hints and clues we get is way too big to be just a coincidence. I've seen many of the people around here saying GRRM won't do it because it's "obvious", but I think if not the internet 99% of the readers would have no clue about this.

If it is proven wrong I believe GRRM have done it just for the sake of surprising, and I think that's horrible. I am 100% positive that he had planned it that way when writing the 1st book... but I can't say for sure he'll confirm it now.

I mean... come on. Do you need more than a blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice?

[Dragonfish]

We don't know how Rhaegar intended it to play out. In my opinion the most likely outcome would be civil war between Aegon and Jon after Rhaegar's death.

I don't think this is as likely as other posters think. Aegon would have remained the undisputed trueborn heir, even if Jon was legitimate. There is no precedent in Westeros for a younger brother usurping his older brother's place in the royal succession, at least not when said older brother is indisputably the king's trueborn son.

[Amitaibs3]

I don't think this is as likely as other posters think. Aegon would have remained the undisputed trueborn heir, even if Jon was legitimate. There is no precedent in Westeros for a younger brother usurping his older brother's place in the royal succession, at least not when said older brother is indisputably the king's trueborn son.

Renly?

[Toccs]

I don't think this is as likely as other posters think. Aegon would have remained the undisputed trueborn heir, even if Jon was legitimate. There is no precedent in Westeros for a younger brother usurping his older brother's place in the royal succession, at least not when said older brother is indisputably the king's trueborn son.

Isn't that almost exactly what the Dance of Dragons was all about?

[Jem]

You didn't hurt my e-feelings.

One of the best things about a message board about a series as detailed as ASoIaF is that we're all bound to reach different conclusions and infer different meanings from the text.

If you'd like to contribute constructively, please feel free to enlighten me to the nuances you think I'm missing re: that conversation. I'll be the first to admit that I miss details, and I'm not being sarcastic here. Please, explain your POV to me. That's what discussion is all about. You gave your interpretation above but didn't provide any details about how you reached that conclusion so I really have nothing to go on.

I also don't have the book to hand at the moment, so I'm not able to reference on the smaller details and I'm doing this from memory.

The conversation goes something like:

Ned: You weren't at the Trident with Rhaegar.

KG: No

Ned: You weren't in KL with Aerys

KG: No

Ned: You are not at Dragonstone with Viserys

KG: No

Ned: You haven't bent the knee to Robert

KG: No

[you see how this is a conversation where everyone already knows the status of everyone else. Neither Ned or the KG are imparting any new knowledge. This exchange is for us]

KG: The Kingsguard does not flee. Then or now. We swore a vow. [direct quotes]

So...These three men still consider themselves to be Kingsguard, they are still following their vows to protect the king. Yet as we have seen, they are not/were not with any of the men or boys who we know could be king (Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon, Viserys, Robert). So how can they still claim to be following their vows? Because someone else is king and they are with him now.