Dragonfish Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Right, and I'm pretty sure the Dornish laissez faire attitude about extra-marital affairs doesn't include public kidnapping and bringing a Northern lady all the way down to Dorne to keep in a "love shack".I doubt Rhaegar actually kidnapped Lyanna. It's more likely she ran off with him willingly.Also Jaimie was pretty much a "hostage" of Aerys too and Tywin brought his force to KL and kicked ass.If Rhaegar had just dissed Elia and Aerys threatened her Lewyn could have done the same thing.Tywin had most likely accepted that Jaime could die once he betrayed Aerys, just as he took him for dead after he was captured by Robb in AGoT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Martell Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 The Kingsguard's duty was wherever Rhaegar and Aerys told them it was. Even if they had a moral problem with whatever was going on, they were still expected to obey the wishes of the King and the heir to the throne.There's plenty of evidence of KG members going along with something they find morally reprehensible because it's their job, so it's not as though imagining Rhaegar ordering them to stay put is all that far-fetched.Morally disagreeing and abandoning the true heir to the throne are two different things. I don't think they would choose to not guard Visarys and unborn Dany just because Rhaegar told them to look after his bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Martell Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 I doubt Rhaegar actually kidnapped Lyanna. It's more likely she ran off with him willingly.right, but general public opinion at the time was that she was kidnapped, so unless Doran had some other info contrary to that he would prob be pissed and wouldn't like R+L hiding out in his territory, again they went there from the North, there were plenty of other places to go, even Summerhall itself instead of a tower IN Dorne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 right, but general public opinion at the time was that she was kidnappedBased on what evidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Spanish_Inquisition Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 The Kingsguard knew that Rhaegar and his children by Ellia as well as Aerys were all dead. At that point their duty is to protect the current King which assuming that Jon is just a bastard would be Viserys. Ned even calls them out on this and they respond "the Kingsguard does not flee". They were protecting the current King because Jon was Rhaegar's oldest surving legitmate son.My impression is that they stayed because they were ordered to do so, and because they were entirely loyal Aerys and Rhaegar. Perhaps they felt protecting Lyanna was the right thing to do, so they stuck around. I see your point, but I just don't buy that they only stayed because Jon was legitimate, and I think they would have done so even if it was just Lyanna and no baby. They don't get the luxury of just strolling off post because the order giver dies.And I may be ignorant of Westerosi succession, but I think that even if Jon were legitimate, Viserys was still the heir upon Rhaegar's death. So really, the reason they stayed has nothing to do with Jon's legitimacy or not. Rhaegar and his heirs were now out of the running and Viserys and his future heirs were up, so as you mentioned, their place would be with Viserys.It's not that hard to imagine why they might not want to discuss the issue with Ned, either. He's an enemy, so of course they aren't going to go over the entire operation with him. He questioned, and they basically told him to go to hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 right, but general public opinion at the time was that she was kidnapped, so unless Doran had some other info contrary to that he would prob be pissed and wouldn't like R+L hiding out in his territory,Why would Doran care? If like everyone else he just thought that Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna, it doesn't realley effect him or Ellia. Ellia would still be Rhaegar's Queen and his nephew Aegon would one day be king.Also where does the idea come from that Doran even knew where Rhaegar and Lyanna were hiding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olde_and_Tired Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 right, but general public opinion at the time was that she was kidnapped, so unless Doran had some other info contrary to that he would prob be pissed and wouldn't like R+L hiding out in his territory, again they went there from the North, there were plenty of other places to go, even Summerhall itself instead of a tower IN Dorne.But look how close Summerhall is to locations that actually see the war. Ashford Strom's End. The location was selected because it was safe. Invasions of Dorne don't go well for the invading army."The Tower of Joy was a round tower in the south of Westeros, close to the Red Mountains of Dorne.[1] It lay in thePrince's Pass.""It was used as a hideout by Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, where he kept Lyanna Stark. Lyanna stayed there after Rhaegar left to lead his father, Aerys II's war against Robert Baratheon's rebellion." This is what the wiki says about the Tower of Joy. No mention of Rhaegar building it, that isn't proof but i don't see where he would get the time or people to constructed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 My impression is that they stayed because they were ordered to do so, and because they were entirely loyal Aerys and Rhaegar. Perhaps they felt protecting Lyanna was the right thing to do, so they stuck around. I see your point, but I just don't buy that they only stayed because Jon was legitimate, and I think they would have done so even if it was just Lyanna and no baby. They don't get the luxury of just strolling off post because the order giver dies.But according to your argument, they do get to decide that their oath to follow orders is more important than their oath to protect the king, which Barristan refers to as their "first duty."Perhaps they felt protecting Lyanna was the right thing to do, so they stuck around.No, they specifically say they are fulfilling their vow by staying there.And I may be ignorant of Westerosi succession, but I think that even if Jon were legitimate, Viserys was still the heir upon Rhaegar's death.No, all of Rhaegar's legitimate sons would come before Viserys in the line of succession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Spanish_Inquisition Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Morally disagreeing and abandoning the true heir to the throne are two different things. I don't think they would choose to not guard Visarys and unborn Dany just because Rhaegar told them to look after his bastard.Right, but again, they don't get the luxury of deciding which order they find acceptable and following only those. They are given orders and expected to carry them out. Disobedience is treason.They stuck around even though Viserys was the heir, and in the absence of any evidence that Lyanna was Rhaegar's now-legal wife, they stayed because they had been ordered to do so. PhantomBaby's legitimacy or illegitimacy had nothing to do with it, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Martell Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Based on what evidence?Every other time it is mentioned it's refereed to as that, and either way the point is they were PUBLICLY very together, it's not like Rhaegar was keeping her on the down-low, Robert went to war because of it, Bran and Rickard died because of it, I mean people knew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Right, but again, they don't get the luxury of deciding which order they find acceptable and following only those. They are given orders and expected to carry them out. Disobedience is treason.Somehow, I think Viserys would have understood.And anyway, it's not like they couldn't have both protected the tower and Viserys. They could easily have sent one or two of their number to Dragonstone while the rest stayed with Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 My impression is that they stayed because they were ordered to do so, and because they were entirely loyal Aerys and Rhaegar. Perhaps they felt protecting Lyanna was the right thing to do, so they stuck around. I see your point, but I just don't buy that they only stayed because Jon was legitimate, and I think they would have done so even if it was just Lyanna and no baby. They don't get the luxury of just strolling off post because the order giver dies.The Kingsguard paramount duty is to protect the King. If Viserys is the King then their duty would be to protect him, not allow him to flee across the Narrow Sea into exile alone. Even if Rhaegar specifically said, "stay here and guard my bastard kid" those orders become void the minute Viserys became King.And I may be ignorant of Westerosi succession, but I think that even if Jon were legitimate, Viserys was still the heir upon Rhaegar's death. So really, the reason they stayed has nothing to do with Jon's legitimacy or not. Rhaegar and his heirs were now out of the running and Viserys and his future heirs were up, so as you mentioned, their place would be with Viserys.The succession goes through the male line of the eldest son. As long as Rhaegar had a legitimate male child, that child was King and thus the Kingsguard performed their paramunt duty and protected their King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sphinx The Riddle Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Rhaegar's supposedly been "away" with Lyanna for like 9 monthsanswered your own question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Every other time it is mentioned it's refereed to as that,It is referred to only twice as a kidnapping, and both of those times occurred after the war. None of this is evidence that the general public opinion at the time was that Rhaegar kidnapped her.and either way the point is they were PUBLICLY very together, it's not like Rhaegar was keeping her on the down-low, Robert went to war because of it, Bran and Rickard died because of it, I mean people knewRobert went to war only after Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon and called for his and Ned's heads. The whole "Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna" narrative was most likely something he assumed in order to paint Rhaegar as evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 My impression is that they stayed because they were ordered to do so, and because they were entirely loyal Aerys and Rhaegar. Perhaps they felt protecting Lyanna was the right thing to do, so they stuck around. I see your point, but I just don't buy that they only stayed because Jon was legitimate, and I think they would have done so even if it was just Lyanna and no baby. They don't get the luxury of just strolling off post because the order giver dies.And I may be ignorant of Westerosi succession, but I think that even if Jon were legitimate, Viserys was still the heir upon Rhaegar's death. So really, the reason they stayed has nothing to do with Jon's legitimacy or not. Rhaegar and his heirs were now out of the running and Viserys and his future heirs were up, so as you mentioned, their place would be with Viserys.It's not that hard to imagine why they might not want to discuss the issue with Ned, either. He's an enemy, so of course they aren't going to go over the entire operation with him. He questioned, and they basically told him to go to hell.Firstly, yes, and not to be rude, but you do seem to be ignorant of Westerosi (and RL) succession. Rhaegar and his line come after Aerys and Viserys only comes into play once all of Rhaegar's sons are dead.Secondly, that whole conversation that Ned recalls in flaskback is not them telling him to go to hell. It is showing us that the KG are/were not with any of the men or boys who conceivably could be king (ie Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon, Viserys). Yet the KG do not flee (from their duty to protect the king)? How can these two things both be true? Because the KG are with the king. Obviously there is someone else who is the king, someone who at the ToJ, someone who Ned does not yet know about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Martell Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Why would Doran care? If like everyone else he just thought that Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna, it doesn't realley effect him or Ellia. Ellia would still be Rhaegar's Queen and his nephew Aegon would one day be king.Also where does the idea come from that Doran even knew where Rhaegar and Lyanna were hiding?If Rhaegar was looking to start a new family (Which R+L=J is) then why would he keep the old one around, let alone have them in power? And Ned knew where they were so not a stretch to think Doran did too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 If Rhaegar was looking to start a new family (Which R+L=J is) then why would he keep the old one around, let alone have them in power?What reason would he have to discard his old family? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Martell Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 answered your own questionyeah he got her 9 months ago, doesn't mean it wasn't one of his companions (KG) who knocked her up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 If Rhaegar was looking to start a new family (Which R+L=J is) then why would he keep the old one around, let alone have them in power? And Ned knew where they were so not a stretch to think Doran did too.Didn't Ned find out where Lyanna was only after Ashara told him? It wasn't public knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Martell Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Robert went to war only after Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon and called for his and Ned's heads. The whole "Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna" narrative was most likely something he assumed in order to paint Rhaegar as evil.No Robert was going to war once Lyanna was kidnapped, Jon Aryan only became involved after Aerys called for Ned & Rob's head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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