The Mad King, not so mad.

[Toccs]

From a post I made in another thread that was sort of a tangent, so rather then risk derailing that thread I thought I'd start a new one.

The Defiance at Duskendale happened and Aerys was imprisoned in a dungeon for months.

Tywin did resign as Hand of the King and withdrew completely from King's Landing.

Rickard Stark, Jon Arryn, Steffon Baratheon and Hoster Tully were plotting a grand conspiracy to usurp Targaryen rule.

Rhaegar was plotting to remove Aerys from power.

Brandon Stark did ride in to King's Landing and threaten death to the crown prince.

Since all of these events were in fact happening is it really fair to hold Aerys' paranoia against him? Also is it fair to say that Varys fueld that paranoria when by reporting any of these plots he was only doing his exact job?

I will not attempt to dispute that the Wildfyre decimation of King's Landing was a pretty crazy contingencey plan, but from Aerys POV literally everyone had turned against him and was plotting to overthrow him.

Since the moniker of Mad King was given to him by those who were secretly plotting against him, is it really correct? These very people who are plotting against him in secret say that he is "mad" because he is so paranoid that every one is plotting against him in secret . . . do you see the flaw in this logic.

Aerys forever being labaled the Mad King is in a way just as unfair as Ned Stark forever being labeled a traitor.

[Winter's Knight]

I think his penchant for burning people alive earned him that moniker.

[Chaircat Meow]

We do have the testimony of Barristan, probably relatively unbiased on this point, that the king was mad.

And Jaime's recollections that he was extremely cruel and capricious.

Whether the rebellion itself is really all about overthrowing an unhinged tyrant though is more doubtful but it isn't wholly untrue.

It seems that if the king alienated his nobles through his erratic behaviour this would only multiply all the usual sources of discontent and unrest that generally plague medieval monarchies. So while Aery's condition was certainly not solely responsible, (his nobles really were plotting against him) it seems likely his incapacity was a pretty crucial catalyst.

But yeah, once he started alienating people further paranoia wasn't baseless. And you're right that the great nobles of westeros all have to bear a lot of responsibility for what happened. Tywin is a classic over mighty subject and Brandon and Rickard do not seem the most sensible of men. But Aery's response to these situations were often petty or stupid too.

Mocking his servant Tywin in the way he did.

Stealing his son and heir away from him out of spite more than anything else (although it could be argued as a hostage from the start).

Making a mockery of the trial of Rickard and Brandon.

Still, other than these incidents I can't think of a truly 'mad act' on the part of the king until the attempt to burn down kings landing. He tended to have been provoked first.

[Jedi Master Hot Pie]

Robert had Cersei plotting his death.

Robert had one of his closest friends randomly die. (Jon Arryn).

Robert had his younger brother flee the city in fear for his life.

Robert had his best friend attacked in the streets by his own brother-in-law.

Robert had half his court controlled by Lannisters and the other half by Littlefinger and Varys, both untrustworthy.

Plus, his own son was fucked in the head.

Yet he didn't randomly decide to start burning people.

But maybe that's because he was too stupid too realise what was going on.

[DurararaFTW]

From a post I made in another thread that was sort of a tangent, so rather then risk derailing that thread I thought I'd start a new one.

The Defiance at Duskendale happened and Aerys was imprisoned in a dungeon for months.

Which happened as a result of his own stupidity and jealousy of Tywin.

Tywin did resign as Hand of the King and withdrew completely from King's Landing.

Which happened as a result of his own stupidity and jealousy of Tywin.

Rickard Stark, Jon Arryn, Steffon Baratheon and Hoster Tully were plotting a grand conspiracy to usurp Targaryen rule.

We don't know this.

Rhaegar was plotting to remove Aerys from power.

Not before he started killing overlords.

Brandon Stark did ride in to King's Landing and threaten death to the crown prince.

He asked him to come out and die. He could have trusted Rhaegar to decline the duel, rather then execute each and every single one of his companions for it, many highborns in their own right.

Since all of these events were in fact happening is it really fair to hold Aerys' paranoia against him?

If he was content with people seeing Tywin as the better man then none of this would have ever happened. If Aerys didn't execute Jon Arryn's family members merely for accompyning Brandon and answering his summons he might not have called his banners

Also is it fair to say that Varys fueld that paranoria when by reporting any of these plots he was only doing his exact job?

Only if they are tue, Aerys made them come true by being bonkers.

I will not attempt to dispute that the Wildfyre decimation of King's Landing was a pretty crazy contingencey plan, but from Aerys POV literally everyone had turned against him and was plotting to overthrow him.

And raping the hell out of his sister-wife?

Since the moniker of Mad King was given to him by those who were secretly plotting against him, is it really correct? These very people who are plotting against him in secret say that he is "mad" because he is so paranoid that every one is plotting against him in secret . . . do you see the flaw in this logic.

They acted against him when Aerys and Rhaegar acted against them first.

Aerys forever being labaled the Mad King is in a way just as unfair as Ned Stark forever being labeled a traitor.

This is not true.

this is the mad king, it's a pretty accurate description.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

I like it, anything to make Dany's family cool. But... why would Varys and Rhaegar plot to remove Aerys if he wasn't mad?

@Durara

Rickard Stark, Hoster Tully, Steffon Baratheon and Jon Arryn were all becoming a family, which is a direct confrontation to the royal family

[Budj]

I think Rickard Stark's southern ambitions are merely him breaking a precedent of staying out of southern affairs. As soon as that happened the shit hit the fan for the North so people blame him not just keeping above the neck for the start of all the issues. Rhaegar and Lyanna may have never met if it wasn't for that either.

However, it is suspicious since he essentially forged allegiances with 3 great houses surrounding KL...Aerys may have been rightly paranoid. But Aerys getting off on burning people and then raping his wife doesn't sound like a guy with all of his mental faculties in check....and if he wasn't such a crazy ass hole he never would have had a reason to be paranoid...?

Also...if there was a huge plot to overthrow the throne it was because Rhaegar waited too long to let people know he was planning on taking over.

[RhaenysBee]

Aerys forever being labaled the Mad King is in a way just as unfair as Ned Stark forever being labeled a traitor.

1. Nobody actually believed Ned Stark to be a traitor. Everybody remembered him as Ned Stark the loyal and honorable Hand of King Robert who had a raw with the Lannisters.

2. Aerys wasn't mad because he was paranoid, or because he had Wildfire made. Tyrion had Wildfire made too and lots of other characters were paranoid too. He was mad because he burned people alive instead of throwing them into the dungeons.

Anyway, Varys probably fueled the paranoia because he hoped it'd kill Aerys sooner or later or make him do something final which would finally give Rhaegar green light to the Throne.

[Chaircat Meow]

Which happened as a result of his own stupidity and jealousy of Tywin.

Which happened as a result of his own stupidity and jealousy of Tywin.

We don't know this.

Not before he started killing overlords.

He asked him to come out and die. He could have trusted Rhaegar to decline the duel, rather then execute each and every single one of his companions for it, many highborns in their own right.

If he was content with people seeing Tywin as the better man then none of this would have ever happened. If Aerys didn't execute Jon Arryn's family members merely for accompyning Brandon and answering his summons he might not have called his banners

Only if they are tue, Aerys made them come true by being bonkers.

And raping the hell out of his sister-wife?

They acted against him when Aerys and Rhaegar acted against them first.

This is not true.

this is the mad king, it's a pretty accurate description.

Its a bit unfair to say Tywin resigned as hand because Aerys was stupid and jealous. Didn't Tywin storm off in a huff because Aerys refused to marry Cersei to Rhaegar? He didn't refuse the offer in the nicest of ways but his conduct was hardly mad or stupid in this regard. Tywin is out for himself and his house and this will cause him to fall foul of the king eventually.

I'm not sure Brandon intended to give Rhaegar a choice. I'm not convinced putting Brandon to death was wrong in itself. The way the king chose to do it was offensive though and made a mockery of the hallowed trial by combat.

[StannisBamfatheon]

Which happened as a result of his own stupidity and jealousy of Tywin.

Which happened as a result of his own stupidity and jealousy of Tywin.

We don't know this.

Not before he started killing overlords.

He asked him to come out and die. He could have trusted Rhaegar to decline the duel, rather then execute each and every single one of his companions for it, many highborns in their own right.

If he was content with people seeing Tywin as the better man then none of this would have ever happened. If Aerys didn't execute Jon Arryn's family members merely for accompyning Brandon and answering his summons he might not have called his banners

Only if they are tue, Aerys made them come true by being bonkers.

And raping the hell out of his sister-wife?

They acted against him when Aerys and Rhaegar acted against them first.

This is not true.

this is the mad king, it's a pretty accurate description.

This. Yes the mad King was mad. Jaime testified that he raped his own wife/sister (nice guy!) and the whole burning/strangling the Starks incident.....That is one character I will not bend on or listen to any sort of redemptive qualities. For what he did to Brandon and Rickard and what he planned to do to King's Landing Aerys II absolutely deserved to be overthrown.

[Toccs]

2. Aerys wasn't mad because he was paranoid, or because he had Wildfire made. Tyrion had Wildfire made too and lots of other characters were paranoid too. He was mad because he burned people alive instead of throwing them into the dungeons.

So Stannis is just as mad as Aerys then?

[danm_999]

Since the moniker of Mad King was given to him by those who were secretly plotting against him, is it really correct? These very people who are plotting against him in secret say that he is "mad" because he is so paranoid that every one is plotting against him in secret . . . do you see the flaw in this logic.

PERHAPS you could say calling him the Mad King was unfair if it ended with his antagonism of the nobles. Perhaps his arousal at fire, and allowing fire to be the Targaryen champion in the Trial by combat is not insane.

But his final plan was to destroy and burn all of King's Landing rather than let it fall to the Rebels? To kill hundreds of thousands of people to deny his enemies victory?

Someone who does that is completely nutter butters.

[nQthing]

A sane man wouldn't have a fixation for cruelty and burning people alive. I think Joffrey would have had a similar title

[Kraken's Kiss]

He had long fingernails...that's an obvious sign of being insane.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

He had long fingernails...that's an obvious sign of being insane.

Like that German nursery rhyme!

So Stannis is just as mad as Aerys then?

Beat me to it! (though I'd say Mel, because Stannis is insane lol)

This. Yes the mad King was mad. Jaime testified that he raped his own wife/sister (nice guy!) and the whole burning/strangling the Starks incident.....That is one character I will not bend on or listen to any sort of redemptive qualities. For what he did to Brandon and Rickard and what he planned to do to King's Landing Aerys II absolutely deserved to be overthrown.

Raping your wife is a bad thing to do, but insane? Mad? Jon Arryn raped Lysa was he mad?

Brandon and Rickard shouldn't have gone out like that, but they did threaten to kill the Prince. Still unjustifiable, but not mad

Though Jaime said Aerys thought he'd become a dragon after burning Kingslanding, which clearly means he's mad, but who the hell knows if Jaime's right?

No ideas why Rhaegar wanted to usurp his father?

[StannisBamfatheon]

Like that German nursery rhyme!

Beat me to it! (though I'd say Mel, because Stannis is insane lol)

Raping your wife is a bad thing to do, but insane? Mad? Jon Arryn raped Lysa was he mad?

Brandon and Rickard shouldn't have gone out like that, but they did threaten to kill the Prince. Still unjustifiable, but not mad

Though Jaime said Aerys thought he'd become a dragon, which clearly means he's mad.

No ideas why Rhaegar wanted to usurp his father?

It's implied Rhaegar wanted to have a referendum of sorts on Aerys' rule at the tourney before Aerys himself decided to go there upon the urging of Varys. Rhagear was true and just and could see his fathers folly, things might have turned out so differently if it wasn't for the Spider. And can we please stop this "just because they didn't love each other it's rape" business. Jon Arryn was one of the finest men in the seven kingdoms. He would never have taken Lysa with violence and force the way Jaime described Aerys doing. She may not have loved him but being married I'm sure she always consented. It is not once explicitly or implicitly stated in the books that Jon Arryn forced himself on Lysa Tully, come on.

[danm_999]

Beat me to it! (though I'd say Mel, because Stannis is insane lol)

Stannis only burns people for executions, and doesn't appear to derive joy from it.

Aerys burning people IS the trial, and he's sexually aroused by the act.

Details details.

[Master of Laws]

Aerys must've shown some sort of signs of being an incapable leader for the high lords to be plotting behind his back.

[Toccs]

He would never have taken Lysa with violence and force the way Jaime described Aerys doing. She may not have loved him but being married I'm sure she always consented. It is not once explicitly or implicitly stated in the books that Jon Arryn forced himself on Lysa Tully, come on.

At the risk of derialing mine own thread.

Marriage does not equal consent. Lysa was forced to abort a child she wanted from the man she loved and was then sold to Jon Arryn. It may not be explicilty stated, but it is certainly implicitily stated when Lysa waxes on the miseries of her marriage to an old man. It's practically the same situation as the Tyrion/Sansa marriage and if Tyrion had seen fit to consumate that, then everyone would be crying rape.

[Chaircat Meow]

Aerys must've shown some sort of signs of being an incapable leader for the high lords to be plotting behind his back.

Why? Since when do ambitious nobles need an excuse to plot behind the king's back.