The Mad King, not so mad.

[danm_999]

Aegon I already set up a magnacarta government. AGOT is only possible when the vassles can eaisly overthrow the king. The only power that the Targaryens had was the gold cloaks and dragons, their army was always in the hands of the Barons Lords.

I can't imagine how the King can lose even more power. Seriously what could Rhaegar take from Aerys aside from the throne?

There was no Magna Carta government, but the King had the ultimate authority. There was no Habeas Corpus, and no laws that bound the sovereign.

There was everything to take. It's an absolute monarchy.

[StannisBamfatheon]

The problem with your argument is that in Stannis' and RObert's case, this would be a spur of the moment decision. Aerys deliberately had wildfire distributed throughout King's Landing in anticipation of civil war. Aerys wanted KL to burn even before the battle of the Trident was lost. That's what I'd call insane.

I would take Robert Baratheon over Aerys II 100 times out of 100. This is the same man who when counseled to slit Barristan Selmy's throat had his own Maester attend to him instead. I don't think he would have deliberately set up King's Landing for incineration and mass death and destruction the way Aerys had done. That was pre-meditated mass murder. Proof's in the pudding Aerys earned his moniker through his actions.

[Toccs]

I would take Robert Baratheon over Aerys II 100 times out of 100. This is the same man who when counseled to slit Barristan Selmy's throat had his own Maester attend to him instead. I don't think he would have deliberately set up King's Landing for incineration and mass death and destruction the way Aerys had done. That was pre-meditated mass murder. Proof's in the pudding Aerys earned his moniker through his actions.

But the fact is that no one knows about his plan to burn King's Landing except for Jaime.

Aerys' moniker of "Mad King" is given to him for his paranoia and unorthodox executions of would be usurpers and traitors. As I pointed out, his paranoia is completely justified in that everyone he suspects was actually plotting against him, and his unorthodox executions would be considered marvelous bending of the rules if done by the opposite side.

So his name of Mad King is not based on any knowledge of his genuine insane acts, but is instead a propaganda tool used by his enemies in the same way that Ned Stark is labeled a traitor.

[Arkash]

Barristan was faithful to him but still call him "mad".

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Honouring Aegon?

He deliberately claims he's doing it to deny Robert the city, killings hundreds of thousands of people. That's straight up crazy.

Isn't that honoring Aegon? Bobby's drunk usurping ass doesn't have to sit in the throne for Targaryen kings, built of the litteral submission of the Andals (who Bartheon is) and the first men. The Baratheon meaty hands and his blunt treacherous fingers wouldn't ever grab the proud Dragon skulls of old and throw it in a dungeon.

Enjoying looking at fire =/= being aroused by someone being burnt.

This is a very simple point. Most people enjoy watching fires, but they don't get excited when people are burnt in them.

We have no proof that the Stark screams is what made Aerys aroused, it could just be the flames

Because Cersei is also a lunatic. She thinks her handmaidens are secretly shrinking her clothes and bases her actions on a prophecy she heard when she was a child.

LOL! No debate there

There was no Magna Carta government, but the King had the ultimate authority. There was no Habeas Corpus, and no laws that bound the sovereign.

There was everything to take. It's an absolute monarchy.

But it's not. Kingslanding (what's the population of Dragonstone?) is the only power that Aerys had, he couldn't defeat 1 family let alone the 5 strongest.

[Dark Night Full of Ninjas]

But the fact is that no one knows about his plan to burn King's Landing except for Jaime.

Aerys' moniker of "Mad King" is given to him for his paranoia and unorthodox executions of would be usurpers and traitors. As I pointed out, his paranoia is completely justified in that everyone he suspects was actually plotting against him, and his unorthodox executions would be considered marvelous bending of the rules if done by the opposite side.

So his name of Mad King is not based on any knowledge of his genuine insane acts, but is instead a propaganda tool used by his enemies in the same way that Ned Stark is labeled a traitor.

Ser Barristan even said that Aerys had lapses of madness, even before he knew of the plotting, and his imprisonment. He stated that Aerys was also charming, so those lapses were forgiven, but over the years his lapses grew worse. Aerys was mad from the start, no ifs, ands, or buts. He was a Mad King

EDIT: Spelling

[danm_999]

But the fact is that no one knows about his plan to burn King's Landing except for Jaime.

We're not arguing from the characters perspectives though.

Aerys' moniker of "Mad King" is given to him for his paranoia and unorthodox executions of would be usurpers and traitors. As I pointed out, his paranoia is completely justified in that everyone he suspects was actually plotting against him,

No, they weren't.

The only evidence we have of anyone wanting to tamper with his rule comes LOOOONG after he's gone of the deep end.

and his unorthodox executions would be considered marvelous bending of the rules if done by the opposite side.

When Robb Stark's prisoners are killed, he executes the man who did the deed, despite him being critical to Robb's war effort, so I'm not sure where this fabricated point is supposed to go.

So his name of Mad King is not based on any knowledge of his genuine insane acts, but is instead a propaganda tool used by his enemies in the same way tat Ned Starks is labeled a traitor.

It's not, because even the people on Aerys side felt he was mad.

[danm_999]

Isn't that honoring Aegon?

No.

Bobby's drunk usurping ass doesn't have to sit in the throne for Targaryen kings, built of the litteral submission of the Andals (who Bartheon is) and the first men. The Baratheon meaty hands and his blunt treacherous fingers wouldn't ever grab the proud Dragon skulls of old and throw it in a dungeon.

I don't understand this.

We have no proof that the Stark screams is what made Aerys aroused, it could just be the flames

Which means the best you can say is that burning someone did not impede Aerys arousal at the fire, which is not sanity either.

But it's not. Kingslanding (what's the population of Dragonstone?) is the only power that Aerys had, he couldn't defeat 1 family let alone the 5 strongest.

He can still be King, but the point is he's bound by certain rules that are above even his authority, like King John was.

[Helgar]

I don't know how Robert has gotten this terrible reputation around here... I consider him to be a pretty good fella, just deeply flawed, just like many characters in the series. Is it because of R+L? Is it a we like red so we hate blue kind of thing?

Terry Pratchett teaches us that the obvious answer to something is usually the wrong one, but in GRRMverse, where every trope and stereotype that exists is not only subverted, but thrown to the ground, stomped over, and mutilated, the obvious answer sometimes is the right one. Aerys was mad, just like Roose Bolton is evil and Walder Frey is petty, cruel and cowardly. There is a mile's long difference between being hot-headed and inconsiderate of your wife, and being a psychopath so absolutely deranged that it would make some of history's most notorious serial killers shudder and cry. He wanted to burn a city down, for crying out loud. He couldn't stand the thought of KL being ruled by someone other than him, so he wanted to kill everyone in the city!

Next topic: Ramsay Bolton has been plotting to restore the Starks to power?

[Chaircat Meow]

But the fact is that no one knows about his plan to burn King's Landing except for Jaime.

Aerys' moniker of "Mad King" is given to him for his paranoia and unorthodox executions of would be usurpers and traitors. As I pointed out, his paranoia is completely justified in that everyone he suspects was actually plotting against him, and his unorthodox executions would be considered marvelous bending of the rules if done by the opposite side.

So his name of Mad King is not based on any knowledge of his genuine insane acts, but is instead a propaganda tool used by his enemies in the same way that Ned Stark is labeled a traitor.

Well, as is evident from my previous posts I have some sympathy for your point of view on this.

However, while Aerys is right to be suspicious of his nobles I can't see how this justifies burning Lord Rickard and then demanding the heads of two others lords (Eddard and Robert) without definite proof of conspiracy. As we know, Aerys actually foiled the Harrenhal plot by going there himself and Rickard did not attend. Maybe Aerys, through Varys, knew more than we do, or perhaps he thought he did. If this is the case it changes things but as of now I can't see much justification for his actions as regards the Starks, beyond putting Brandon to death (which was ok in my opinion).

It all looks a bit unhinged, flailing after plots without any real evidence. Why suspect Ned was involved for instance?

I can't recall Stannis behaves this with his own nobles. Certainly not the major ones and getting on the wrong side of one of your lords paramount is quite different from allowing someone to arrest your onion knight (like Stannis).

[Chaircat Meow]

I agree with everything up until the Starks.

We don't know enough about them overall to assume they were not sensible.

And Brandons actions may have been born of pure panic over what was happening to his sister.

(Joffrey in the show at least made an intrigueing comment that the Starks were weak because they put too much value on their women).

It may have been entirely sensible to get as far away from the nuthouse that was KL, and it's influence.

I think it's one thing to be ruled by a line of noble people, who though not perfect, did try to do right by their KIngdom and their Nobles, and another that you had to "flip a coin" to know whether your life would be a living hell, or not.

I'll take it back as regards Rickard but Brandon's plan was exceptionally dangerous and his failure to ascertain whether Rhaegar was actually at the Red Keep is worth being called stupid, if you ask me. Aerys is perfectly within his rights to treat Brandon harshly for threatening the Crown Prince, regardless of what Rhaegar might have done and if Rickard stuck up for Brandon this can't have looked good either.

[StannisBamfatheon]

This should hopefully put the whole thing to bed. "As mad as her father" - That is Mace Tyrell in the epilogue of A Dance with Dragons describing Daenarys Targaryen. In the words of Kevan Lannister that is the same Mace Tyrell who supported the Mad King up until the end of the war. You cannot say it was some coordinated propaganda campaign by the Starks, Tullys, Arryns, and Baratheons when one of Aerys' own sworn swords refers to him as mad. It would seem that it is an opinion held by everyone in the kingdom from Winterfell to High Garden. Also how would this propaganda campaign work exactly? A game of telephone? Ravens dropping leaflets? C'mon son.

[Chaircat Meow]

This should hopefully put the whole thing to bed. "As mad as her father" - That is Mace Tyrell in the epilogue of A Dance with Dragons describing Daenarys Targaryen. In the words of Kevan Lannister that is the same Mace Tyrell who supported the Mad King up until the end of the war. You cannot say it was some coordinated propaganda campaign by the Starks, Tullys, Arryns, and Baratheons when one of Aerys' own sworn swords refers to him as mad. It would seem that it is an opinion held by everyone in the kingdom from Winterfell to High Garden. Also how would this propaganda campaign work exactly? A game of telephone? Ravens dropping leaflets? C'mon son.

Tyrell needs an excuse not to support Dany and everyone says her dad was mad so... True, I think, but not the most neutral of sources. Tyrell follows the herd.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

No.

I don't understand this.

Aerys is proud to be a Targ. Targ's are proud of their throne. It'd be a grave insult for a non Targ to sit on the Targy throne

He can still be King, but the point is he's bound by certain rules that are above even his authority, like King John was.

Better answer then Grand Council :D .

Who want's to be King John? Without a doubt the worst king ever, and his brother was warhawk anti semitic Richard.

Isn't that basiclly usurping? Putting your dad in a tower so you make all the laws and then when he dies he becomes king.

I assumed it was Varys who asked for Ned and Robert's head

[danm_999]

Aerys is proud to be a Targ. Targ's are proud of their throne. It'd be a grave insult for a non Targ to sit on the Targy throne

Granted, but you can destroy the Iron Throne, or even the Red Keep, without taking down all of King's Landing.

It's just insanity to want to wipe out the whole city.

Better answer then Grand Council :D .

Who want's to be King John? Without a doubt the worst king ever, and his brother was warhawk anti semitic Richard.

Isn't that basiclly usurping? Putting your dad in a tower so you make all the laws and then when he dies he becomes king.

I assumed it was Varys who asked for Ned and Robert's head

Well a little bit of constitutional law is really what Westeros needs IMO.

[Dark Night Full of Ninjas]

Tyrell needs an excuse not to support Dany and everyone says her dad was mad so... True, I think, but not the most neutral of sources. Tyrell follows the herd.

Okay, but as I stated several times already, what about Ser Barristan's statements about Aery's lapses of madness? Coming from his own Kingsguard

[Faceless Sam]

well, he didnt cut his fingernails because he was afraid of nail files

http://t1.gstatic.co...kDQKrLC6U4jouWQ

a self care deficiency which clearly requires treatment, i would say. so: mad.

[Chaircat Meow]

Okay, but as I stated several times already, what about Ser Barristan's statements about Aery's lapses of madness? Coming from his own Kingsguard

I agree those statements are good evidence and I do think Aerys was mad, in at least some sense, although paranoid, depraved and delusional might be more accurate, if only to avoid the impression he was totally out of his wits, as some of his plans aren't wholly irrational by any means.

I was just saying Mace, is, as usual, worthless.

[nara]

To the OP, I agree with your point that history is written by the victors and we should not necessarily take what they say as absolute truth. However, there is sufficient evidence to say that Aerys does deserve the moniker "the Mad King" based on the fact that he consistently does cruel things well out of the norm of behavior.

If he wanted to execute Rickard and Brandon, he could have hung them or burned them. Instead, he did it in a way that caused Brandon to strangle himself while trying to save his father. Reminds me of the "Saw" movies!

While plenty of men would have demanded their marital rights from their wife (I'll leave the rape/not rape discussion for another thread), he was incredibly cruel to her in a way that only (that I remember)Ramsay Bolton is. What he did was torture someone who was willing to do her "duty" towards him.

And many more examples.

I think he is somewhat justified in being scared by being surrounded by strong lords: Tywin, Stark+Tully+Arryn, Dorne, but a rational person would have tried to strengthen his ties to his friends or tried to convert enemies to friends. He could have found a way to release jaime and gotten Tywin back on his side (I'm sure he and tywin could have come up with some reasonable excuse) to counteract the growing strength of the Starks. Or he could have betrothed Viserys to Lysa Tully to offset the Stark influence on Tullys. Instead he behaved in ways that further isolates himself, which may not be insane, but is certainly irrational.

So, whether it's a coincidence that he's reallly the Mad King as they call him or whether people had actually seen enough to justify it, he is an insane king.

[PatrickStormborn]

Aerys was definitely mad. I don't think this can be denied. But I do agree that some of his paranoia seems to be fairly justified. He was obviously not a good person, but then again neither was Robert Baratheon. Perhaps, if he had been born with an element of madness and had been held hostage for a long period of time, Robert Baratheon would have acted somewhat similarly to Aerys? After all, he managed to bankrupt the realm (something Aerys didn't do), and like Aerys he raped his wife.