From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa V

[Valkyrja]

Hahahah! He does seem awfully clued up on a lot of things though, like all the Stark relatives (plus location), House Stark being 8000 years old, various songs/tales and their content, animal life in the summer islands, how to survive in the wilds and trap various wild animals, social commentary on peasants vs knights. etc. EDIT: and the geographical layout of the Riverlands, where as far as we can tell he's rarely set foot before.

So....within Sandor is both the knowledge and skill of a Ranger of Eriador, and the passion for travel and map-reading of a Baggins? I love it. :lol:

Let us hope that Sandor will stock up on mushrooms, athelas, and some 'medicinal' pipeweed during his time on the Quiet Isle. :pimp:

[Lummel]

Yes, because he is training her for a life and death situation, not needle point.

Really a BIG difference, an average person would not consider lefty to be a problem I believe.

Still, Arya being left-handed was a problem in terms of her knitting. If Septa Mordane wanted Arya to excel at this skill, and made an attempt to find her impediment to knitting, she would have found that it was because Arya is left-handed...

It was embroidery not knitting :)

If you are being taught to embroider in a right handed style and you are left handed then you will find it very difficult and will look unskillful - it wasn't unusual for left handed children to be taught to write with the right hand or to use tools designed for right handed people (and almost all tools are by default) and will only be able to use them clumsily. I know on a previous thread I described Septa Mordane as a "Daily Mail" reader but in her defence most people teach intuitively rather than thoughtfully (unless they have been taught or learnt to do otherwise) - she'll be teaching Arya to embroider right handedly because she is right handed and can't imagine how awkward that is for her. Obviously then you get a bit of a Halo effect kicking in and Bob's your uncle Sansa is good while Arya is difficult in her opinion.

Sword fighting is a bit different because if you are left handed fighting a right handed person you can attack their unprotected side plus with left handed people being a minority the right hander will be at a disadvantage in not knowing how best to respond and will have to switch their usual fighting style to adjust.

[Lyanna Stark]

If you are being taught to embroider in a right handed style and you are left handed then you will find it very difficult and will look unskillful - it wasn't unusual for left handed children to be taught to write with the right hand or to use tools designed for right handed people (and almost all tools are by default) and will only be able to use them clumsily. I know on a previous thread I described Septa Mordane as a "Daily Mail" reader but in her defence most people teach intuitively rather than thoughtfully (unless they have been taught or learnt to do otherwise) - she'll be teaching Arya to embroider right handedly because she is right handed and can't imagine how awkward that is for her. Obviously then you get a bit of a Halo effect kicking in and Bob's your uncle Sansa is good while Arya is difficult in her opinion.

This is true, and while I am sure the Septa did what she could most of the time, she did act as a catalyst for Sansa's and Arya's deteriorating relationship. If they ever find each other again, their issues may not be that easily overcome and the Septa had some blame in driving them apart.

Even if AFFC/ADWD Sansa is likely to not be as judgemental as AGOT Sansa over Arya, I'm not sure they will automatically see eye to eye on things just because they find themselves the only remaining Starks (barring the Rhollored UnJon). Arya has certainly grown up a lot and seen a lot of things since she last met Sansa, but they were both left with the last impressions of the other, which weren't all that favourable since even if Ned tried to get them to get along, the incident with Joffrey, Nymeria and Lady still lie between them. Not to mention that Sansa will probably still see Arya as he unruly little sister, and Arya will see Sansa as the perfect lady looking down on her from above.

As much as it may not be comfortable for them, perhaps an encounter with UnCat can finally get them to realise they need to stick together? I do think it needs to be something that really hammers home that whatever else have happened before, it needs to be water under the bridge from now on.

[Fire Eater]

It was embroidery not knitting :)

Fair, but I still agree with Lyanna Stark in Septa Mordane having done a poor job in some respects.

[Raksha the Demon]

Sandor might be one of the best readers in Westeros; we all know he was thumbing through those romances long before Sansa ;)

That's the crux of the issue. The Septa also sneers at Jory, is overly awed by the royal court and all in all cultivates a very negative attitude towards those in the lower classes or those whose cultures do not allow for the excesses seen in the South. Sansa is fed on a steady diet of romance, chivalry and songs, and little is done to caution her about the inherent falsity of this world. Given the Septa's behaviour in AGOT, I'd say that's because she too is spellbound by this environment.

I find it rather odd that the Lord and especially the Lady of Winterfell allowed their older daughter to be so ignorant of the true world, a world in which they expected her to marry a high lord and receive his guests with political aplomb as well as run a large household, at the age of eleven. Ned drags little Bran off to see an execution for the first time when the kid's what, nine, while Sansa is still thinking that the king's court is full of Florians and Dragon-knights and she can't wait to be Jonquil. Cat in particular, since Sansa seemed definitely closer to her mother than her father (as Arya seemed closer to her father than her mother), should have started to have some long talks with Sansa about what it was really like outside Winterfell. Instead, Cat seems to have been content that her oldest daughter prattled back the Septa's teachings and got high praise, and thought all knights were noble/valiant/perfect.

I can only conclude that both Cat and Ned tended to want to give their children a good, happy childhood; perhaps a reaction to their both being caught up in tragedy and war before they were 20 - Ned losing father, brother and sister and leading the Stark forces in rebellion; while Cat married Ned instead of Brandon and carried and bore Robb while her husband was at war. I would think that Cat planned to give Sansa a post-Septa course in Westerosi Women's Guide to Political Reality, but thought that she could do it later, when Sansa was 12 or 13; since they had no desire to marry her off too young. Neither she nor Ned anticipated that Jon Arryn would die and Robert would show up at Winterfell with the offer Ned couldn't refuse, to marry Sansa to Joffrey, so soon, before Sansa had even flowered.

The education of both the Stark sisters was remiss in my opinion, in terms of preparing them to be the future ladies of noble houses northern or southern. To be an effective great Lady in the Stark-Tully tradition, it was important to know history and courtesy and heraldry as did Sansa, to be able to understand the history and traditions of many Houses; and also to maintain and interest in and a knowledge of one's own staff and smallfolk (as does Arya). It's as if this optimum duality that seems to make Ned Stark so well respected and loved, and to some extent Cat herself, the ability to walk with princes, lords and also soldiers and guards and understand/protect one's ostler and kennel-master as well as the maester, has been split in two between the predilections of Sansa and Arya.

The Septa might not have been the best teacher for Cat and Ned's daughters; but in the end, whose fault is it that her shortcomings were not corrected or supplemented by personal instruction from Cat herself, or even another Septa sent for? I don't hate Catelyn by any means, but I think she should have taking a stronger role in both her daughters' education. I also think that she and Ned should not have taken Arya, so plainly a Northern child in heritage and inclination, to King's Landing; but I suppose it's just as well, or Arya would have been forcibly wed to either Theon or Ramsey (or both, in succession, Ramsey after he killed Theon, which he would have done to make Arya a widow).

[brashcandy]

Bran was 7 when he went to see that beheading IIRC. Yeah, I do think there was some neglect on the part of the parents to adequately prepare Sansa and Arya for the realities of a Southron court and how one must conduct themselves. Sansa flies under the radar because she's always been courteous and obedient, so no one quite realises the dangerous naivete she has concerning the world. And Arya's rebellious behaviour is indulged all along the kingsroad leading to unfortunate consequences. I think Cat felt that Sansa would blossom in the South, and of course no one realised that war would erupt and the children would become pawns and captives. Overall, I would say that both Cat and Ned were happy to have Sansa be the beautiful queen - a lovely highborn girl who takes her privileged place in society alongside a Prince or noble lord. Sansa was quite happy with fulfilling this expectation, as it accorded with her own desires at the time, and so her highly romanticised views did alarm anyone.

[Lyanna Stark]

I can only conclude that both Cat and Ned tended to want to give their children a good, happy childhood; perhaps a reaction to their both being caught up in tragedy and war before they were 20 - Ned losing father, brother and sister and leading the Stark forces in rebellion; while Cat married Ned instead of Brandon and carried and bore Robb while her husband was at war. I would think that Cat planned to give Sansa a post-Septa course in Westerosi Women's Guide to Political Reality, but thought that she could do it later, when Sansa was 12 or 13; since they had no desire to marry her off too young. Neither she nor Ned anticipated that Jon Arryn would die and Robert would show up at Winterfell with the offer Ned couldn't refuse, to marry Sansa to Joffrey, so soon, before Sansa had even flowered.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. Both Ned and Cat were marked by war and what it did to their families. Cat also lost her mother early on and from what she says in her own chapters, she spent a lot of time with a lot or responsibility and waited and waited for Hoster to come back from wherever he had been.

Ned never mentions his mother, so she must have been gone at the time of his siblings' and his father's death, meaning he has Benjen left, and he was at the Wall.

It really feels like Ned and Cat wanted to compensate their own children to a degree for what they could not get themselves, as in, they had this wish to create an almost perfect childhood for their children and to mend their own pasts with creating a lovely family and home. And they succeeded! Unfortunately Robert came north and it all got destroyed.

[bloodymime]

I don't think you can necessarily decide Sansa's parents wrapped her in swaddling cloth with no idea of outside world. How far should they go in destroying their daughter's dreams and fancies? Should they pull a Tarly on her? She's seen plenty of northern men like Whoresbane and Arnolf Karstark to know the world isn't full of shining knights. She's an eleven year old chld. She's going to hear what she wants to hear and see what she wants to see.

Even after Cersei has Lady killed she stays infatuated with Joffrey, the Lannisters and all the other shiny things. It takes his having Ned executed for her to see him as he really is. We all have our delusions. We especially had them at that age and nobody was going to tell us different.

Even after Bran is crippled he wants to be a big and shining knight just like in all the stories. Noboy hounds him for it despite all the horrible examples of knights we see in the world.

[brashcandy]

It's interesting here as well to note that the two men who initially challenge Sansa's notion of how the world looks are Sandor and Littlefinger, both of whom we see more of later, too. So Sandor and Littlefinger as crushers of the patriarchal structures? :lol: As backwards as that is, they have both helped in their own way in propelling Sansa onto a path of larger autonomy.

This is an important observation, Lyanna. I think they are in their own ways undermining the patriarchy: Sandor with the cynicism towards knighthood, and LF with his machinations that destabilise the nobility and cause widespread havoc. That Sansa should have been awarded these two men as "mentors" says a lot about where her arc could be heading.

Currently, Sansa holds two beliefs that aren't true with regard to the two men. The first is that Sandor kissed her, and the second is that Littlefinger took her mother's maidenhead. It's interesting to speculate on how these two misconceptions could have a greater role to play in propelling her towards that autonomy you noted above.

[Fire Eater]

This is an important observation, Lyanna. I think they are in their own ways undermining the patriarchy: Sandor with the cynicism towards knighthood, and LF with his machinations that destabilise the nobility and cause widespread havoc. That Sansa should have been awarded these two men as "mentors" says a lot about where her arc could be heading.

Currently, Sansa holds two beliefs that aren't true with regard to the two men. The first is that Sandor kissed her, and the second is that Littlefinger took her mother's maidenhead. It's interesting to speculate on how these two misconceptions could have a greater role to play in propelling her towards that autonomy you noted above.

Another thing one should note is that both these men as boys had similar attitudes towards knighthood and songs, but those notions and their innocence were cruelly shattered; for LF it was when Brandon Stark soundly defeated LF in a duel for Cat's hand which left LF with grievous wounds, and for Sandor it was when Gregor found him playing with the wooden knight and thrusted his face into the brazier.

[Kittykatknits]

I don't think you can necessarily decide Sansa's parents wrapped her in swaddling cloth with no idea of outside world. How far should they go in destroying their daughter's dreams and fancies? Should they pull a Tarly on her? She's seen plenty of northern men like Whoresbane and Arnolf Karstark to know the world isn't full of shining knights. She's an eleven year old chld. She's going to hear what she wants to hear and see what she wants to see.

Even after Cersei has Lady killed she stays infatuated with Joffrey, the Lannisters and all the other shiny things. It takes his having Ned executed for her to see him as he really is. We all have our delusions. We especially had them at that age and nobody was going to tell us different.

Even after Bran is crippled he wants to be a big and shining knight just like in all the stories. Noboy hounds him for it despite all the horrible examples of knights we see in the world.

The image of Sansa wrapped in swaddling cloth is quite funny actually. My curiosity isn't so much about destroying her dreams and fancies, but better understanding how they came to be. Granted, Sansa is only 11 when the story starts out but she strikes me as being especially naive, even compared to other characters we have met who are close to her in age. Sansa is an idealist which I think explains some of it but not all. Ned feels comfortable having Bran face hard truths when he is told to witness the execution of a NW deserter in the opening chapter of GOT. So, why is this not done at all with Sansa? The impression I get left with is that Ned left her education and development to Cat and Septa Mordane. As long as she was acting like a good little girl, I doubt he thought much beyond it. Then, in KL, I think Ned was distracted to the point that he couldn't invest in her education and development like he should have.

I agree that a girl at 11 years will see and hear what she wants to but that doesn't quite seem to explain it. The first two times we see someone trying to give Sansa the truth about life are from LF and Sandor.

From what I can tell, Septa Mordane put the Sansa in a position to be naive the way that she is, even encouraging it. Catelyn and Ned allowed it to happen.

[brashcandy]

Sevumar posted this in another thread, and I thought it would be a useful starting point for a discussion on Sansa and identity:

There's a strong case to be made that ASOIAF can be read as a meditation on identity and many of the major characters in the books spend substantial portions of their arcs questioning the roles that society has dictated for them. A few examples:

• Cersei rejects the Westerosi view that her gender makes her unfit and incapable of holding power in her own right.
  
• Brienne challenges the notion that knighthood is an institution for men alone. She has never fit into the role prescribed for her by her culture.
  
• Arya rejects the notion that women should not be allowed to train at arms and choose not to pursue political marriage. She muses about the fact that she is unable to hold office. Later in the story, she tries on and discards a slew of identities as she seeks to find her place in the world.
  
• Sam wanted his father to respect that he would never conform to the extreme interpretation of Westerosi manhood that Randyll imposed on his son. His interest in scholarship and aversion to combat make him a rarity while he struggles to carve out a niche for himself in the Night's Watch.
  
• Tyrion is another character who couldn't conform to Westerosi expectations of men, yet remained loyal to his family. Now, he is beginning to question where he fits in a world where he has been cast out by that family and denied the freedom to find his own place in society.
  

What's always amazed me is how well Sansa adapts to the Alayne Stone identity. She's not only using it as a cover, but it's imbuing her with greater confidence and giving her an outlet for expression that Sansa might have been shied away from. Even if we consider that Sansa has always been the capable girl we see now in AFFC, there's no denying that she herself appreciates the sense of tenacity that being bastard brave brings.

If we compare Cersei's failure to Sansa's success, Martin might be making the point that one cannot expect to break away from societal restrictions or hope for substantial change when one is still dependent on the birthright/the familial connections etc that tethers one to patriarchal rule. It's not a matter of saying that Cersei would have been able to get past these restrictions, but perhaps now we can understand why she failed?

A highborn bastard in Westeros isn't quite the equivalent of being "no-one" in Braavos, but there are similarities in the way people tend to disregard your importance or worth. Seeing as Alayne is LF's daughter, more scrutiny is going to be fall on her, but I do believe that we'll see Sansa longing to keep this identity for a while longer, and to find a way out of her marriage to Harry if that is indeed what LF intends.

[bgona]

Hi!

If you can believe I still rereading (yes, it is taking me too long! jajaja). At least I can say that I´m at AFFC finally (hands clapping).

Of this reread I´d just analyze The Bear And The Maiden Fair song. We all know how important songs are for Sansa (mostly all knightly songs) but I trully believe that this song and at the moment that Sansa hears it is important in her arc.

First, if somebody wants to listen it:

This song has been played three times in the books so far. One of them by Tom Sevenstreams with Hot Pie at the Inn of the Kneeling Man. Another by Greatjon Umber at the Red Wedding. And the one that I am going to comment here is played by Butterbumps during the dinner Sansa was invited by Margaery Tyrell and The Queen of Thorns, Olenna Redwyne.

“As my lady commands.” Butterbumps bowed low, let loose of an enormous belch, then straightened, threw out his belly, and bel owed. “A bear there was, a bear, a BEAR! All black and brown, and covered with hair. .”

Lady Olenna squirmed forward. “Even when I was a girl younger than you, it was wel known that in the Red Keep the very wal s have ears. Well, they will be the better for a song, and meanwhile we girls shal speak freely.”

“But,” Sansa said, “Varys… he knows, he always…

“Sing louder!” the Queen of Thorns shouted at Butterbumps. “These old ears are almost deaf, you know. Are you whispering at me, you fat fool? I don’t pay you for whispers. Sing!”

“… THE BEAR!” thundered Butterbumps, his great deep voice echoing off the rafters. “OH, COME, THEY SAID, OH COME TO THE FAIR! THE FAIR? SAID HE, BUT I’M A BEAR!

ALL BLACK AND BROWN, AND COVERED WITH HAIR!”

The wrinkled old lady smiled. “At Highgarden we have many spiders amongst the flowers. So long as they keep to themselves we let them spin their little webs, but if they get underfoot we step on them.” She patted Sansa on the back of the hand. “Now, child, the truth. What sort of man is this Joffrey, who calls himself Baratheon but looks so very Lannister?”

Two facts are stablished:

- Butterbumps sings really loud to let Sansa express what the Tyrells are so anxious to hear. In this scene, it is shown how the Tyrells coax and coerce Sansa to express her own opinion.

- The song speaks about a hairy bear that goes to the fair. It is to obvious that we will think of Daenerys and Jorah, to start with.Jorah is referred many times as a bear due to his sigil, in addition he is big and tall. But Daenerys isn´t a maiden anymore. Also, we can think on Brienne and Jaime. Brienne is a maiden “fair”, but also a knight. And Jaime is a golden lion, more than a bear. He fights against a bear at Harrenhal, and he grows a beard but I still see him as a lion. Finally, we have Sansa and Sandor. Sansa is a flowered maiden and Sandor is The Hound. When I think of a hound, I always imagine him with a lot of hair. And also Sandor is also described as tall and strong, an image that matches well the idea of a bear. If we establish that the bear is Sandor we can think that the fair can be King´s Landing (with a lot of life, and bright, smelly and as full of people as a fair).

“AND DOWN THE ROAD FROM HERE TO THERE. FROM HERE! TO THERE! THREE

BOYS, A GOAT, AND A DANCING BEAR!”

Sansa felt as though her heart had lodged in her throat. The Queen of Thorns was so close she could smell the old woman’s sour breath. Her gaunt thin fingers were pinching her wrist. To her other side, Margaery was listening as well. A shiver went through her. “A monster,” she whispered, so tremulously she could scarcely hear her own voice. “Joffrey is a monster. He lied about the butcher’s boy and made Father kil my wolf. When I displease him, he has the Kingsguard beat me. He’s evil and cruel, my lady, it’s so. And the queen as wel .”

Lady Olenna Tyrel and her granddaughter exchanged a look. “Ah” said the old woman, “that’s a pity.”

Oh, gods, thought Sansa, horrified. If Margaery won’t marry him, Joff will know that I’m to blame. “Please,” she blurted, “don’t stop the wedding…”

“Have no fear, Lord Puff Fish is determined that Margaery shall be queen. And the word of a Tyrell is worth more than all the gold in Casterly Rock. At least it was in my day. Even so, we thank you for the truth, child.”

“… DANCED AND SPUN, ALL THE WAY TO THE FAIR! THE FAIR! THE FAIR!”

Butterbumps hopped and roared and stomped his feet.

The 3 kids can be represented in two different ways:

1.- Cersei´s three children (Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen), or

2.- Sansa´s three suitors (Joffrey, Tyrion and Harry The Heir). Sansa is betrothed to Joffrey, married to Tyrion and as Alayne is betrothed to Harry The Heir (if Harry accepts her). Here I don´t count Willas cause Sansa was never truly proposed by a Tyrell man.

The goat: is Petyr Baelish, as he has a lot of goats in the Fingers. Also he is small as a goat. In addition, he reminds me to a satyr half-man, half-goat.

And again the bear: Sandor Clegane, The Hound.

“Sansa, would you like to visit Highgarden?” When Margaery Tyrell smiled, she looked very like her brother Loras. “All the autumn flowers are in bloom just now, and there are groves and fountains, shady courtyards, marble colonnades. My lord father always keeps singers at court, sweeter ones than Butters here, and pipers and fiddlers and harpers as wel . We have the best horses, and pleasure boats to sail along the Mander. Do you hawk, Sansa?”

“A little,” she admitted.

“OH, SWEET SHE WAS, AND PURE, AND FAIR! THE MAID WITH HONEY IN HER

HAIR!”

“You will love Highgarden as I do, I know it.” Margaery brushed back a loose strand of Sansa’s hair. “Once you see it, you’ll never want to leave. And perhaps you won’t have to.”

“HER HAIR! HER HAIR! THE MAID WITH HONEY IN HER HAIR!”

“Shush, child,” the Queen of Thorns said sharply. “Sansa hasn’t even told us that she would like to come for a visit.”

Here the Tyrells are trying to coax her to visit Highgarden.

The hair with honey can be also the auburn colour of Sansa´s hair. It is relevant that when the song tells us about the fair maiden´s hair, Margaery Tyrell touches Sansa´s hair. The second time that a Tyrell touches her hair (Lady Olenna) is to pull off an Asshai Amatyst from her hairnet at the Purple Wedding.

This hair touching can be seen as a symbol of treachery.

“Oh, but I would,” Sansa said. Highgarden sounded like the place she had always dreamed of, like the beautiful magical court she had once hoped to find at King’s Landing.

“. . SMELLED THE SCENT ON THE SUMMER AIR. THE BEAR! THE BEAR! ALL

BLACK AND BROWN AND COVERED WITH HAIR.”

“But the queen,” Sansa went on, “she won’t let me go.. ”

“She will. Without Highgarden, the Lannisters have no hope of keeping Joffrey on his throne. If my son the lord oaf asks, she will have no choice but to grant his request.”

“Will he?” asked Sansa. “Will he ask?”

Lady Olenna frowned. “I see no need to give him a choice. Of course, he has no hint of our true purpose.”

“HE SMELLED THE SCENT ON THE SUMMER AIR!”

Sansa wrinkled her brow. “Our true purpose, my lady?”

“HE SNIFFED AND ROARED AND SMELLED IT THERE! HONEY ON THE SUMMER

AIR!”

“To see you safely wed, child,” the old woman said, as Butterbumps bellowed out the old, old song, “to my grandson.”

The bear is sniffing while the Tyrells are telling lies to Sansa (Cersei will never let Sansa go, she is her war prisoner, the key to keep Jaime alive). And the bear is smelling it there. This reminds me of Lady and The Hound, they both could smell lies.

There is a reference to Summer cause Sansa is, in a way, still a Summer Child.This reminds me of the white cloak in the cedar chest, with summer silks.

The honey on the summer air can also be refer to the lies that the Tyrells say. They are sweet, like honey.

Wed to Ser Loras, oh… Sansa’s breath caught in her throat. She remembered Ser Loras in his sparkling sapphire armor, tossing her a rose. Ser Loras in white silk, so pure, innocent, beautiful. The dimples at the comer of his mouth when he smiled. The sweetness of his laugh, the warmth of his hand. She could only imagine what it would be like to pull up his tunic and caress the smooth skin underneath, to stand on her toes and kiss him, to run her fingers through those thick brown curls and drown in his deep brown eyes. A flush crept up her neck.

“OH, IMA MAID, AND I’M PURE AND FAIR! I’LL NEVER DANCE WITH A HAIRY

BEAR! A BEAR! A BEAR! I’LL NEVER DANCE WITH A HAIRY BEAR!”

Sansa is thinking of marrying a White Cloak. She doesn´t realise that there is an impediment but they can´t really get married. Ser Loras can´t marry anybody. He has taken a celibate vow. However, Sandor hasn´t take any vows. It is also surprising that Loras will end with terrible burns, like Sandor.

It is funny to read about a pure and fair maid, while Sansa is having those smutty thoughts about Loras.

Meanwhile, the song is saying that she will never dance with a hairy bear, and this makes me believe that this is also expressed in a sarcastic way.

“Would you like that, Sansa?” asked Margaery. “I’ve never had a sister, only brothers. Oh, please say yes, please say that you wil consent to marry my brother.”

The words came tumbling out of her. “Yes. I will. I would like that more than anything. To wed Ser Loras, to love him. .”

“Loras?” Lady Olenna sounded annoyed. “Don’t be foolish, child. Kingsguard never wed. Didn’t they teach you anything in Winterfell? We were speaking of my grandson Willas. He is a bit old for you, to be sure, but a dear boy for al that. Not the least bit oafish, and heir to Highgarden besides.”

Sansa felt dizzy; one instant her head was full of dreams of Loras, and the next they had all been snatched away. Willas? Willas? “I,” she said stupidly. Courtesy is a lady’s armor. You must not offend them, be careful what you say. “I do not know Ser Willas. I have never had the pleasure, my lady. Is he… is he as great a knight as his brothers?”

“. . LIFTED HER HIGH INTO THE AIR! THE BEAR! THE BEAR!”

Lady Olenna is also surprised that Sansa thinks about Loras. Instead she is trying to carry Sansa to a marriage with Willas (a political marriage, cause all the Tyrell´s movements have a political reason, like the red rose that Loras gives to Sansa at the Hand´s Tourney, when he gives her the rose, he still has to fight to more times, one against Gregor and after defeating him, against the Hound. Then, he would give a rose to Myrcella and another one to Cersei).

“No,” Margaery said. “He has never taken vows.”

Her grandmother frowned. “Tell the girl the truth. The poor lad is crippled, and that’s the way of it.”

“He was hurt as a squire, riding in his first tourney,” Margaery confided. “His horse fell and crushed his leg.”

“That snake of a Dornishman was to blame, that Oberyn Martel . And his maester as well.”

“I CALLED FOR A KNIGHT, BUT YOU’RE A BEAR! A BEAR! A BEAR! ALL BLACK

AND BROWN AND COVERED WITH HAIR!”

“Willas has a bad leg but a good heart,” said Margaery. “He used to read to me when I was a little girl, and draw me pictures of the stars. You will love him as much as we do, Sansa.”

Willas isn´t a knight and has a crippled leg. This can be seen as a reference to Sandor, who is not a knight and he will end up with a lame leg. Willas has a good heart, according to Margaery; we truly don´t know that (we haven´t even met Willas yet) but we know that Sandor has a good heart. This is shown in his actions with Arya and with Sansa.

In addition, in the song, the maiden is saying that she called for a knight but that he is a bear covered with hair. Sandor isn´t a knight but it is a hound covered with scars.

This also reminds me of Sansa at the Godswood praying for a knight, a true friend. Then, she met Ser Dontos first, and after that, at the serpentine, she met The Hound.

“SHE KICKED AND WAILED, THE MAID SO FAIR, BUT HE LICKED THE HONEY

FROM HER HAIR. HER HAIR! HER HAIR! HE LICKED THE HONEY FROM HER HAIR!”

“When might I meet him?” asked Sansa, hesitantly.

“Soon,” promised Margaery. “When you come to Highgarden, after Joffrey and I are wed. My grandmother will take you.”

“I will,” said the old woman, patting Sansa’s hand and smiling a soft wrinkly smile. “I will indeed.”

“THEN SHE SIGHED AND SQUEALED AND KICKED THE AIR! MY BEAR! SHE SANG. MYBEAR SO FAIR! AND OFF THEY WENT, FROM HERE TO THERE, THE BEAR, THE

BEAR, AND THE MAIDEN FAIR.”

Here comes the smut: this is the discription of a cunnilingus. Where we realize that the hair that he licks is not at her hair, and the honey is something more precious. And in addition she gets the sexual climax. And then she accepts to leave with him. Not before.

I know that is a sex reference, but with a maiden sex is made with love. So this can turn a love reference.

We can realise also that the first time she says that she will not go with the bear. It reminds me of the Blackwater battle scene in Sansa´s bedroom, when she doesn´t leave with Sandor.

This could mean that they will meet again and they will have another scene together before Sansa agrees to stay with Sandor.

This song can refer to them, and if it does, I will love to read that scene!!!

I´m also open to any suggestion.

[bloodymime]

The image of Sansa wrapped in swaddling cloth is quite funny actually. My curiosity isn't so much about destroying her dreams and fancies, but better understanding how they came to be. Granted, Sansa is only 11 when the story starts out but she strikes me as being especially naive, even compared to other characters we have met who are close to her in age. Sansa is an idealist which I think explains some of it but not all. Ned feels comfortable having Bran face hard truths when he is told to witness the execution of a NW deserter in the opening chapter of GOT. So, why is this not done at all with Sansa? The impression I get left with is that Ned left her education and development to Cat and Septa Mordane. As long as she was acting like a good little girl, I doubt he thought much beyond it. Then, in KL, I think Ned was distracted to the point that he couldn't invest in her education and development like he should have.

I agree that a girl at 11 years will see and hear what she wants to but that doesn't quite seem to explain it. The first two times we see someone trying to give Sansa the truth about life are from LF and Sandor.

From what I can tell, Septa Mordane put the Sansa in a position to be naive the way that she is, even encouraging it. Catelyn and Ned allowed it to happen.

That's going to be Bran's duty when he gets older. Sansa is learning her duties as a lady as well. The sewing and managing a household.

Though the fact is they are both Cat's favorite children when you think about it. I don't know where to go there, that just connected that the two with the most southron interests are Cat's favorites.

[bgona]

But you are talking about the role of women and men at Westeros. Sansa was taught to rule a household, but she is a highborn. She should have been taught that people are mean and how to hold them. Instead she lived in a place where justice and love was everywhere. She couldn´t believe at mean things.

I believe that both Cat and Ned give Sansa little arms to handle (only her courtesy as an armour, but not a weapon! and the armour was taught by Septa Morgane, that yes, she made a pour help letting Sansa believes all the knightly songs).

Anyway: I can imagine how difficult can be to try to insert some sense in somebody that lives in a fairy land. I had been that way, and it took me many years to realise that is mean people. That these only want their own purpose and the rest of ous means nothing to them. I empathize with her about that feelings.

[brashcandy]

Thanks again bgona for posting your Bear and the maiden fair analysis :) I really enjoyed it. In that particular scene my reading of it was related to her final acceptance of Willas Tyrell, but I've always seen the parallels between the Bear and Sandor and I think you do a really nice job on the symbolism (the Tyrells and foreshadowing their treachery) and how it could apply to those other men in Sansa's life (Petyr/satyr/goat).

[brashcandy]

I believe that both Cat and Ned give Sansa little arms to handle (only her courtesy as an armour, but not a weapon! and the armour was taught by Septa Morgane, that yes, she made a pour help letting Sansa believes all the knightly songs).

Good point. I think the Septa taught her how to use courtesy as an armour, but she learns on her own (via Sandor too) how to use it as a weapon.

[bgona]

I believe that also LF is teaching her how to use it.

Tyrion gives her a shield (their marriage is a shield for her maidenhood, in addition to her status).

[Caro99]

Hi bgona! Your post about the bear and the maiden fair was really intresting. It was funny to picture LF as being the goat from the story and about how Sansa is indeed thinking a bit naughtily about Loras while a song of a maiden is being played out loud :laugh: … though I’m sure she wasn’t one for long after the song ended. The fair=court observation was also accurate I think.. just one quick question since you mentioned Ned’s tourney and loras. Can Sansa still be the queen of love & beauty from that tourney though loras only gave her a red rose? That was the only thing that resembled “courtly love” in that occasion, so…?

& about your observations of Sandor and the bear.. you mentioned this, and I agree since I’ve always thought that the first night sansa met dontos in the godswood, she prayed to the gods to send her a true knight to save her.. she thinks they send her dontos, but I think that they send her the Hound. But it would be nice to have Sansa and Sandor meeting again before the books end and ending up together just like in the song. I would want to read that scene too. :read: :wub:

But them ending up together and Sandor having a good heart (which I agree with you he has) instantly made me think about this new interview to George over at WiC where he talks about San/San. We know he’s never really talked that much about this relationship unfortunately, (nor is this interview the exception) but he does say that he is surprised how much fans of his work, particularly women, find themselves so interested in the villains like Jaime, Sandor and Theon, due to them having done some terrible things and other stuff. But this clashes with our belief that Sandor has a gentle heart. So is George just playing coy and will never pretend he can see the Sandor romantic appeal till the very end when he either gets the girl or dies for her? Is he playing with us? Or is he just being honest?

He also mentions Sandor and Sansa’s relationship saying, “And I do know that there are all these people out there who call themselves the San/San fans and want to see Sansa and Sandor get together at the end. The female interviewer says she can understand why Sandor is “appealing” buy the male interviewer sort of gave me the impression that since the show sort of toned down things between these 2, it’s clear they aren’t meant to be together.

I just don’t know what to make of it. Help?? :worried: :unsure:

It’s around 10:00 here:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/69116-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-v/page__st__60

[bgona]

Thanks again bgona for posting your Bear and the maiden fair analysis :) I really enjoyed it. In that particular scene my reading of it was related to her final acceptance of Willas Tyrell, but I've always seen the parallels between the Bear and Sandor and I think you do a really nice job on the symbolism (the Tyrells and foreshadowing their treachery) and how it could apply to those other men in Sansa's life (Petyr/satyr/goat).

The Petyr as a satyr came out at the reread thread, and puts me also in the way to the idea. For this it is so good to due the reread with other´s people ideas in addition!

And as another person suggest me: the Petyr´s beard also.