From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa V

[Lyanna Stark]

The age of Sansa and the circumstances during which the emotional seeds for the relationship were planted. Under the best of circumstances, young love is usually misguided—it takes maturity to form lasting, genuine relationships. When you take into account Sansa’s situation when she was around Sandor, it makes any feelings between the two highly suspect. The genesis of their relationship is troublesome, to say the least.

Unfortunately the ages in ASOIAF are fucked up. This is sort of a circular argument. Almost all the younger characters act like they are older, and it's something we cannot get away from. We either accept it or move on, or it totally ruins the suspension of disbelief. This should have been obvious already in AGOT with Dany and Drogo, and further with Robb going to war at age 14-15. It's just totallt unrealistic unless we assume that 14-15 in Westeros is different from 14-15 in real life.

[brashcandy]

As I’ve written previously, I have serious misgivings regarding the SanSan-relationship. My objections centre primarily on these points.

Ok, Daidalos, I'll try to tackle your points one by one. Let me just say that in general I think your concerns are valid, but their are specific qualities to the Sansan relationship which I think you have failed to consider.

] The age of Sansa and the circumstances during which the emotional seeds for the relationship were planted. Under the best of circumstances, young love is usually misguided—it takes maturity to form lasting, genuine relationships. When you take into account Sansa’s situation when she was around Sandor, it makes any feelings between the two highly suspect. The genesis of their relationship is troublesome, to say the least.

Sansa is very young, yes. However, the way in which Martin has framed her development in the narrative is that we see her immaturity when it comes to other relationships (Joffrey and Loras) whilst with Sandor we are meant to not only see her "mature" qualities of compassion and empathy, but how the relationship benefits both of them in terms of growth and development. Sansa changes because of the Hound's influence and her own experiences during KL. She learns some harsh realities and comes to appreciate honesty and truth even if the packaging isn't very palatable. I would not characterise their relationship as "young love" in any sense of the term, and I don't believe that Martin has presented it as such either. Rather, he's shown two people shaped by circumstances and each other, who come to appreciate and value one another, and who gradually (with particular regard to Sansa) come to realise a depth of feeling. As for the genesis of their relationship, if we are talking about true beginnings, then it takes place before she is a hostage. He gives her advice whilst she is still in the bloom of her first love for Joffrey. Later on her position changes (princess to pawn), but the nature of the relationship really doesn't. He's still acting as an advisor and even more actively now as a protector. I would agree with you that young love is misguided, but that was Martin's theme with Joffrey, not with Sandor. You assert that people need time to grow and mature and isn't that what is happening now via their separation?

] Sandor, while a complex and intriguing character, is entirely unsuitable as a romantic partner to anyone, much less Sansa. Sandor is an emotionally unstable murderer and abuser; even if he calmed down, he would still be guilty of terrible crimes. While he is a pathetic creature in many ways, this does not excuse his serious shortcomings. Because of this, it baffles me that people would want to wish Sandor upon anyone as a romantic partner.

I'm a bit weary of debating Sandor's suitability as a romantic partner. I see your point, but outside of saying that he's getting help with those emotional issues, and that regardless of them Sansa comes to see something of value in him, I don't know where this discussion can go. I don't wish Sandor upon Sansa, I wish that Sansa is able to make her choice in whom she wants to love. The text highlights that this person may be Sandor, so that's why I can appreciate it happening. Being guilty of terrible crimes doesn't mean that one can't repent them and find peace. What I like is that Martin hasn't given us the cliched story of a man being healed by a woman's love. Sandor has to do a lot of his healing on his own, and via the EB's assistance. Rather, we have the presentation of two people who come to have feelings for one another. Point blank, take it or leave it. We can quibble over the appropriateness or not, but that's just the facts of it.

] What Sansa and Sandor have in terms of a relationship is not a good foundation for the future.

What you mean truth, honesty, compassion, understanding and desire don't make for a good foundation to a relationship? Please tell me what does.

This cannot be stressed enough, but Sansa and Sandor’s relationship must transform entirely for a healthy romance between the two to endure. Him as the protector might have worked in King’s Landing, but in a real relationship it would be creepy and have possessive undertones; moreover, it would cement the power imbalance between the two that reigned during her captivity. Essentially, what they have wouldn’t work—it would make for an unequal and abusive dynamic—and there’s little evidence to suggest that it can change.

Why would it be creepy for him to act as her protector? We're not saying that he's going to be guarding the door with his longsword and saying to her, "You weak, me strong." One of the principal tenets in Westerosi marriages - the cloaking of the woman - is that she passes from her father's protection to her husband's. Sandor has always respected Sansa and tried to give her the tools to help herself. He may not be able to do so on an institutional level, but as a personal helpmate he's been selfless and caring. This allows for true equality in my view, and does not have possessive undertones at all.

Finally, I have a short comment regarding Sansa’s journey. It might seem neat for Sansa to progress from a young girl enamoured of handsome knights and princes to a woman who can appreciate the beauty hidden beneath a rough exterior, but I wonder if that might not be too neat for GRRM. Sansa’s journey has been one of growing complexity, and complexity does not permit elegant inversions. What I mean to say is that it might not be so simple that Sansa comes to love Sandor for his decency, but that she may actually still be repulsed by his appearance. Sandor lingers in Sansa’s imagination, but in our fantasies, it is easy to forget what disgusts us; reality is a constant reminder, one that might still make a relationship between Sansa and Sandor impossible.

If she can fantasise about him, I think that's a huge sign that his facial features are no longer a turn off to her. Even when they were still together, she admits that it's the rage in his eyes which is terrible, not so much the burns, and she touches his face on the night of the BB. This is not really about finding beauty beneath the rough exterior, but rather that the rough exterior doesn't prevent desire from forming. Sandor will always have his scars, but Sansa is nearing a place where those scars don't matter. Having them reconnect and Sansa say oops, he's really an ugly bugger after all is what would erase all the complexity of that relationship and her development.

[Lyanna Stark]

Why would it be creepy for him to act as her protector? We're not saying that he's going to be guarding the door with his longsword and saying to her, "You weak, me strong." One of the principal tenets in Westerosi marriages - the cloaking of the woman - is that she passes from her father's protection to her husband's. Sandor has always respected Sansa and tried to give her the tools to help herself. He may not be able to do so on an institutional level, but as a personal helpmate he's been selfless and caring. This allows for true equality in my view, and does not have possessive undertones at all.

In addition to this, he has also lost any position in society in which he can wield power over Sansa (unless we're looking at purely physical strength, but that would be the same for almost any man and probably a fair few women too).

If he ever should rejoin society and stop being a monk at the QI, he will need a benefactor since he's not only without a position, he's actually in real terms on minus due to being a hunted fugitive. Perhaps Sansa can pay him back for helping her out by offering him her protection as a benefactor (benefactress?). In that case the power dynamics would be completely reversed. Should they ever meet again this is actually the most likely scenario since Sansa's star is "on the rise" so to speak, while he has currently got his life and a horse, and that's it.

[brashcandy]

And just one more quibble on the point that it takes maturity to form lasting and genuine relationships: some of my most enduring and meaningful relationships were formed as a child- still at primary school. People grow together, and experience things together and apart, and the relationship can benefit from both processes. Just because Sansa met Sandor at 11 doesn't mean that they weren't able to form a genuine relationship.

[Daidalos]

Dr. Pepper, thank your for your fair critique. I will first provide a specific response to some of your points, and then make a more general statement.

I disagree because it seems as though you are saying that those who have committed grievous crimes can never be redeemed or be worthy of love and forgiveness and can never experience any sort of positive growth.

I wouldn't want to become too philosophical about this, but my feeling is that fictional characters can come to redemption very cheap indeed. In real life, the standard is different, more restrictive, and more appropriate.

However, I wouldn't say that it is impossible for "bad people" to find redemption or to become "worthy" of love or forgiveness. Premised on that notion, what positive growth Sandor has enjoyed has still not served to redeem him in my eyes.

If someone who has committed terrible crimes cannot hope to become a better man, worthy of respect, forgiveness and honor, then does that mean that someone who was always good is always worthy of respect and can never do anything cruel and terrible?

I don't see how that follows. No, I certainly don't think someone who has always been good, whatever that means, is always worthy of respect and can never do anything cruel and terrible. Relatedly, if one does something sufficiently cruel and terrible, one ceases to be good.

A person's past shouldn't just be erased from history when or if they change. But I think a person's present is more important in deciding who they are and what they are worthy of.

To this I would say that a person's past is part of his or her present. Past actions inform the character of the present, and it's not so easy to erase the past. I don't want to suggest some facile balancing effort, where the person must undo all the harm it has caused to be considered redeemed, but the past should weigh heavily. Consider the other characters in ASOIAF who have behaved terribly, many of them guilty of worse crimes than Sandor; what would it take for them to redeem themselves? If Gregor foreswore his raping and murdering ways after confessing to a religious authority, would he be forgiven? Would Ramsay be forgiven, if he gave up his title, got married and treated his wife with love and respect, and lived out his days as a humble labourer? This would strike me as a perversion of morality and justice, since these characters' past actions are so horrible; some proportionality of past crimes and subsequent redemptive effort seems warranted.

I suppose what galls me most about SanSan is the seeming lack of acknowledgement of the twisted aspects of this relationship, more than Sandor's unsuitability. The past is important, and I sometimes feel that Sandor is whitewashed, and excuses or irrelevant comparisons are offered to absolve him.

[Lyanna Stark]

However, I wouldn't say that it is impossible for "bad people" to find redemption or to become "worthy" of love or forgiveness. Premised on that notion, what positive growth Sandor has enjoyed has still not served to redeem him in my eyes.

No offense, but the "worthy" of love argument sets my teeth on edge. What level of heroic deeds do you need to do to be "worthy" of love? And in this case, the heroic male hero needs to be "worthy" of the heterosexual princess' love? This transforms female desire into some sort of measurement of how "heroic" or "good" a certain character is, and it relegates female desire into some sort of empty space where it's not valid, not good enough, or simply not smart enough.

What I disagree with the strongest here is that you're basically saying to Sansa "you don't know what is best for yourself" and that is a pretty overbearing attitude towards women I have encountered a lot of times myself during my life. Friends or family telling me I ought not see that guy because "he's not good enough for you" or "you really could do better", as if my choice here was irrelevant. As if female desire needs to be calibrated against some arbitrary scale and the object discarded if it does not meet criteria set up by people other than the woman herself.

If it turns out badly, well sometimes it does, but at least then it will be her own mistake.

This is also the reason why I am fully behind Dany's decision to sleep with Daario.

[brashcandy]

I suppose what galls me most about SanSan is the seeming lack of acknowledgement of the twisted aspects of this relationship, more than Sandor's unsuitability. The past is important, and I sometimes feel that Sandor is whitewashed, and excuses or irrelevant comparisons are offered to absolve him.

With all due respect, Daidalos, I've participated in the 19 Sandor Clegane threads on this board, along with a couple Sandor appreciation threads. I can assure you that whatever inclination I may have had to whitewash this character or his relationship with Sansa was well and truly scourged in those threads. People assume that because one envisions a romance between the two that one must have necessarily done a heap of whitewashing and moral gymnastics and that's really not the case.

[Daidalos]

Unfortunately the ages in ASOIAF are fucked up. This is sort of a circular argument. Almost all the younger characters act like they are older, and it's something we cannot get away from. We either accept it or move on, or it totally ruins the suspension of disbelief. This should have been obvious already in AGOT with Dany and Drogo, and further with Robb going to war at age 14-15. It's just totallt unrealistic unless we assume that 14-15 in Westeros is different from 14-15 in real life.

The portion that you quoted concerned the origin of the relationship, when Sansa and Sandor were together. Then, she was 11-12. My point was that she was very young when the relationship started, and the circumstances were oppressive, and that I did not consider this to be conducive for any future romance.

And I'm not selective with my age-related concerns. For example, I find the Dany and Drogo relationship completely screwed up, however in this instance I am more troubled with the character of Khal Drogo than with the age of Dany. If ever a horrible person has been called good, it would be Khal Drogo.

[brashcandy]

If Gregor foreswore his raping and murdering ways after confessing to a religious authority, would he be forgiven? Would Ramsay be forgiven, if he gave up his title, got married and treated his wife with love and respect, and lived out his days as a humble labourer? This would strike me as a perversion of morality and justice, since these characters' past actions are so horrible; some proportionality of past crimes and subsequent redemptive effort seems warranted.

Men like Gregor and Ramsay have not simply committed terrible crimes; they are genuinely evil, terrible people. We are given insight into Sandor's character which shows that although he may have done evil, his own nature isn't so twisted or warped as people might think. This is what Sansa discovers. Sandor may never escape your censure, but Sansa's appreciation is what matters, not ours. She prays for his rage to be gentled and it seems like she may get her wish.

No offense, but the "worthy" of love argument sets my teeth on edge. What level of heroic deeds do you need to do to be "worthy" of love? And in this case, the heroic male hero needs to be "worthy" of the heterosexual princess' love? This transforms female desire into some sort of measurement of how "heroic" or "good" a certain character is, and it relegates female desire into some sort of empty space where it's not valid, not good enough, or simply not smart enough.

Oh yes, it sets me on edge too. And it also leads to the dangerous judgements that just because a man is nice enough to a woman it means that he deserves her love. Hence the view that has spawned many an opinion on how Sansa should have been kinder to Tyrion and willing to accept him in her bed.

[Lyanna Stark]

The portion that you quoted concerned the origin of the relationship, when Sansa and Sandor were together. Then, she was 11-12. My point was that she was very young when the relationship started, and the circumstances were oppressive, and that I did not consider this to be conducive for any future romance.

So if I understand you correctly here, you mean that should they meet again in the future after having been apart and done their own things, whatever relationship they could possibly have would be tainted by the way they once met? Is that a fair interpretation?

And I'm not selective with my age-related concerns. For example, I find the Dany and Drogo relationship completely screwed up, however in this instance I am more troubled with the character of Khal Drogo than with the age of Dany. If ever a horrible person has been called good, it would be Khal Drogo.

So you are looking at Dany coming to love Khal Drogo as wrong because he is not a morally good person?

Maybe I am the strange one here, but I tend to make connections with people not so much based on whether they are a fully morally good person, but on the basis of whether or not we have something in common, or if there is chemistry, or something else that is hard to define. Sure, there are of course limits when it comes to what I can accept when it comes to actions and behaviour, but even so it's always been more important to me how a person acts towards me than towards the rest of society.

It's a bit the same as with the "worthy of love" argument. I don't love someone because they are objectively worthy of love (God knows I would disqualify myself most of the time if this was the case) but because I just do.

[1234567]

The loss of the five year gap is a great shame for the story. As well as having to suspend our disbelief in regards to the children's ages, we also have to imagine that in one year Arya becomes an uber-assassin, Bran a mystical tree wizard, Sansa a major behind the scenes manipulator and Sandor has been through enough Therapy to resolve a lifetime of issues (well potentially if he returns to the story).

Khal Drogo is a brute, but he is not inherently evil as his methods are part of his culture. The Dothraki culture is certainly barbaric. Sandor for all his brutality, does not seem to have stepped or acted outside the bounds of Westerosi society, although his behaviour is seen as being on the less honourable side of it. He is brutal and violent, but has the potential for change.

Gregor and Ramsay on the other hand act out with the bounds and then some of acceptable Westerosi society. Their actions are condemned by the many, not just the few. They seem to show no remorse and actually enjoy hurting others.

Someone like Jaime (although I don't think he has done well on his redemption arc) is trying to change for the better.

[bloodymime]

No offense, but the "worthy" of love argument sets my teeth on edge. What level of heroic deeds do you need to do to be "worthy" of love? And in this case, the heroic male hero needs to be "worthy" of the heterosexual princess' love? This transforms female desire into some sort of measurement of how "heroic" or "good" a certain character is, and it relegates female desire into some sort of empty space where it's not valid, not good enough, or simply not smart enough.

What I disagree with the strongest here is that you're basically saying to Sansa "you don't know what is best for yourself" and that is a pretty overbearing attitude towards women I have encountered a lot of times myself during my life. Friends or family telling me I ought not see that guy because "he's not good enough for you" or "you really could do better", as if my choice here was irrelevant. As if female desire needs to be calibrated against some arbitrary scale and the object discarded if it does not meet criteria set up by people other than the woman herself.

If it turns out badly, well sometimes it does, but at least then it will be her own mistake.

This is also the reason why I am fully behind Dany's decision to sleep with Daario.

Nice, I usually don't pay too much attention to the Sandor Sansa stuff but you're right that emotions aren't mathematical equations. The square root of Hero multiplied by redemption divided by forgiveness doesn't mean you're the hero that gets the girl it means you're a math nerd.

And that's no offense there you math nerds. I absolutely envy you. It's the language of the universe and I'm a fucking illiterate.

[brashcandy]

Nice, I usually don't pay too much attention to the Sandor Sansa stuff but you're right that emotions aren't mathematical equations. The square root of Hero multiplied by redemption divided by forgiveness doesn't mean you're the hero that gets the girl it means you're a math nerd.

And that's no offense there you math nerds. I absolutely envy you. It's the language of the universe and I'm a fucking illiterate.

Ok this has me cracking up! :) Mind if I steal it for my sig? Credited to you of course.

[Kittykatknits]

Nice, I usually don't pay too much attention to the Sandor Sansa stuff but you're right that emotions aren't mathematical equations. The square root of Hero multiplied by redemption divided by forgiveness doesn't mean you're the hero that gets the girl it means you're a math nerd.

And that's no offense there you math nerds. I absolutely envy you. It's the language of the universe and I'm a fucking illiterate.

Awesome line is awesome. I loved that.

I need to catch up on this thread, it's moving to fast.

[Daidalos]

A quick note: I am trying to respond to everyone's posts, but the replies multiply at an alarming rate. I will try to keep up.

I would not characterise their relationship as "young love" in any sense of the term, and I don't believe that Martin has presented it as such either. Rather, he's shown two people shaped by circumstances and each other, who come to appreciate and value one another, and who gradually (with particular regard to Sansa) come to realise a depth of feeling.

Rather than "young love," perhaps I should have written "the love that young people feel." Quite an unwieldy phrase, I think you'd agree. What I meant was that the feelings that spring from an immature mind are unreliable, and that emotions begin in such a young age can't serve as a basis for a mature adult relationship. Furthermore, while Sansa's emotions regarding Sandor are more complex than her various infatuations, this doesn't mean they are not immature or that they can be sustained in perpetuity.

As for the genesis of their relationship, if we are talking about true beginnings, then it takes place before she is a hostage. He gives her advice whilst she is still in the bloom of her first love for Joffrey. Later on her position changes (princess to pawn), but the nature of the relationship really doesn't. He's still acting as an advisor and even more actively now as a protector. I would agree with you that young love is misguided, but that was Martin's theme with Joffrey, not with Sandor. You assert that people need time to grow and mature and isn't that what is happening now via their separation?

Let's see how it plays out when Sansa and Sandor meet when both are mature. I might change my mind regarding SanSan when that happens, but as long as Sansa's imaginings and feelings are based on her experiences when she was 11-12, I can't help but question the foundation of their relationship.

I'm a bit weary of debating Sandor's suitability as a romantic partner. I see your point, but outside of saying that he's getting help with those emotional issues, and that regardless of them Sansa comes to see something of value in him, I don't know where this discussion can go. I don't wish Sandor upon Sansa, I wish that Sansa is able to make her choice in whom she wants to love. The text highlights that this person may be Sandor, so that's why I can appreciate it happening. Being guilty of terrible crimes doesn't mean that one can't repent them and find peace. What I like is that Martin hasn't given us the cliched story of a man being healed by a woman's love. Sandor has to do a lot of his healing on his own, and via the EB's assistance. Rather, we have the presentation of two people who come to have feelings for one another. Point blank, take it or leave it. We can quibble over the appropriateness or not, but that's just the facts of it.

It is possible for Sansa to freely choose Sandor and that their resultant relationship still is twisted and unhealthy. It's not clear that this is what will happen, and until it does, I think it justified to express one's concerns regarding the match.

What you mean truth, honesty, compassion, understanding and desire don't make for a good foundation to a relationship? Please tell me what does.

Oh, come on. I don't deny that there are positive aspects to SanSan; I have never argued that there's an absence of good things in their relationship, rather that there are also many, many bad things. A foundation is built of the good and the bad together.

Why would it be creepy for him to act as her protector? We're not saying that he's going to be guarding the door with his longsword and saying to her, "You weak, me strong." One of the principal tenets in Westerosi marriages - the cloaking of the woman - is that she passes from her father's protection to her husband's. Sandor has always respected Sansa and tried to give her the tools to help herself. He may not be able to do so on an institutional level, but as a personal helpmate he's been selfless and caring. This allows for true equality in my view, and does not have possessive undertones at all.

So, are we invoking the principal tenets of Westerosi marriages to buttress our arguments with respect to the suitability of SanSan now? If so, it would have been right and decent for Tyrion take Sansa's maidenhead after their wedding; Westerosi custom doesn't seem to recognise the husband claiming his rights as being conditional on the wife's consent.

If we're going to discuss this, I would like to share a little anecdote. Just a few years ago, Sweden's crown princess was getting married. Since I'm a republican (note: lower-case 'r'), I was pretty indifferent to the whole affair. However, there was some controversy regarding the Church of Sweden and their objections to some aspect of the wedding that caught my attention. Initially, I thought, "Oh, that's typical, the Church is annoyed over something. What do we care what conservative clergymen have to say?" What surprised me, however, was that the church's concern was that the crown princess wanted the traditional ceremony, where her father the king delivered her to her soon-to-be husband. The practice was conservative and patriarchal, the church said, and not at all appropriate in contemporary Sweden. I mention this because customs that may be commonplace in other parts of the world, particularly North America, may not be practised everywhere, and that this may colour our perception of similar traditions depicted in fiction. My natural response is to regard the institution of Westerosi marriage with similar suspicion.

If she can fantasise about him, I think that's a huge sign that his facial features are no longer a turn off to her. Even when they were still together, she admits that it's the rage in his eyes which is terrible, not so much the burns, and she touches his face on the night of the BB. This is not really about finding beauty beneath the rough exterior, but rather that the rough exterior doesn't prevent desire from forming. Sandor will always have his scars, but Sansa is nearing a place where those scars don't matter. Having them reconnect and Sansa say oops, he's really an ugly bugger after all is what would erase all the complexity of that relationship and her development.

I don't agree with this. She doesn't have Sandor around to be constantly reminded of his scars, which makes it much, much easier for her to forget or gloss over the fact of his appearance. I don't think it would diminish Sansa or the complexity of their relationship if Sandor's scars still mattered when they met up again, and she couldn't retreat into fantasy but would be confronted with a less rosy reality.

[Daidalos]

No offense, but the "worthy" of love argument sets my teeth on edge. What level of heroic deeds do you need to do to be "worthy" of love? And in this case, the heroic male hero needs to be "worthy" of the heterosexual princess' love? This transforms female desire into some sort of measurement of how "heroic" or "good" a certain character is, and it relegates female desire into some sort of empty space where it's not valid, not good enough, or simply not smart enough.

You are mischaracterizing my position. I did not bring up Sandor's "worth," and I used it with quotation marks in response to a poster that did. My argument did not rest on Sandor's "worth"; I said that I had misgivings regarding their relationship because of his moral shortcomings, and that those failings probably won't make for a good relationship. A female character may very well feel genuine desire for a man who is less-than ideal; in my mind, this doesn't invalidate her desire, but I don't see why I have to accept the relationship as good and healthy because of that.

What I disagree with the strongest here is that you're basically saying to Sansa "you don't know what is best for yourself" and that is a pretty overbearing attitude towards women I have encountered a lot of times myself during my life. Friends or family telling me I ought not see that guy because "he's not good enough for you" or "you really could do better", as if my choice here was irrelevant. As if female desire needs to be calibrated against some arbitrary scale and the object discarded if it does not meet criteria set up by people other than the woman herself.

Choice is not irrelevant, but it does not void the concerns--not that all concerns are valid, mind you. However, this part you quoted did not actually concern Sandor's suitability as a match for Sansa, but rather whether he was redeemed (in a moral sense) or not. My main concern there was simply to express my feeling that he was not redeemed of his past mistakes, if indeed such a thing was possible.

This is also the reason why I am fully behind Dany's decision to sleep with Daario.

Dany can sleep with whomever she wants to sleep with; that doesn't oblige us as readers to like that person or that relationship. As it happens, I don't really care about Dany's trysts; I thought it pretty amusing that she rejected the Quentyn, much as I suspect she would have rejected "Aegon."

[Daidalos]

With all due respect, Daidalos, I've participated in the 19 Sandor Clegane threads on this board, along with a couple Sandor appreciation threads. I can assure you that whatever inclination I may have had to whitewash this character or his relationship with Sansa was well and truly scourged in those threads. People assume that because one envisions a romance between the two that one must have necessarily done a heap of whitewashing and moral gymnastics and that's really not the case.

Men like Gregor and Ramsay have not simply committed terrible crimes; they are genuinely evil, terrible people. We are given insight into Sandor's character which shows that although he may have done evil, his own nature isn't so twisted or warped as people might think. This is what Sansa discovers. Sandor may never escape your censure, but Sansa's appreciation is what matters, not ours. She prays for his rage to be gentled and it seems like she may get her wish.

Given what we as readers have come to understand of Gregor and Ramsay, we see them as genuinely evil, terrible people. Had we only seen Sandor at his worst (his killing of Mycah, in my mind), we would probably think similiar thoughts regarding him. But what if we are provided insights into Gregor and Ramsay that complicate our judgments of them? Or, if not that, what if they do have a change of heart and start to perform good deeds? Is redemption simply impossible for them?

Oh yes, it sets me on edge too. And it also leads to the dangerous judgements that just because a man is nice enough to a woman it means that he deserves her love. Hence the view that has spawned many an opinion on how Sansa should have been kinder to Tyrion and willing to accept him in her bed.

Even though this wasn't directed at me, I feel should say that I don't think a man deserves a woman's love simply because he is nice to her. The heart doesn't work that way.

[Daidalos]

So if I understand you correctly here, you mean that should they meet again in the future after having been apart and done their own things, whatever relationship they could possibly have would be tainted by the way they once met? Is that a fair interpretation?

Yes, it might be. But I also wrote later (I don't remember the post) that I might change my mind, depending on how that meeting plays out.

So you are looking at Dany coming to love Khal Drogo as wrong because he is not a morally good person?

Maybe I am the strange one here, but I tend to make connections with people not so much based on whether they are a fully morally good person, but on the basis of whether or not we have something in common, or if there is chemistry, or something else that is hard to define. Sure, there are of course limits when it comes to what I can accept when it comes to actions and behaviour, but even so it's always been more important to me how a person acts towards me than towards the rest of society.

It's a bit the same as with the "worthy of love" argument. I don't love someone because they are objectively worthy of love (God knows I would disqualify myself most of the time if this was the case) but because I just do.

I feel as if I'm repeating myself, but I haven't really made the "[un]worthy of love" argument. I don't question that we can fall in love with "unworthy" (note the quotation marks) individuals, but my position has always been that I'm not compelled to appreciate a relationship, no matter how heartfelt the emotions between the parties. And in expressing a wish not to see a particular relationship realised, I don't think it inappropriate to question the character of one or both of the participants. Moreover, I think it entirely fair to question how "free" these choices are, considering the influences that shape us. I have already talked about the influences that shaped Sansa's mind and inclined her to certain choices, but similar arguments can be made with regard to Dany and Khal Drogo.

[brashcandy]

Rather than "young love," perhaps I should have written "the love that young people feel." Quite an unwieldy phrase, I think you'd agree. What I meant was that the feelings that spring from an immature mind are unreliable, and that emotions begin in such a young age can't serve as a basis for a mature adult relationship. Furthermore, while Sansa's emotions regarding Sandor are more complex than her various infatuations, this doesn't mean they are not immature or that they can be sustained in perpetuity.

And what is wrong with the love that young people feel? I think you should resist making general judgements on the nature of love and instead focus on what is presented to us in the text. The emotions that we see present between Sansa and Sandor are precisely those that can benefit a mature relationship in the future. I cannot see what sense it makes in the slightest to try to undermine what is shown to us as a very serious appreciation of the flaws and imperfections of a man, and a deep understanding of what it is that torments him. She also values his frank honesty and the help that he gave her in KL. These are not things that have sprung from an immature mind, but rather someone who is realising what it is that truly matters.

Let's see how it plays out when Sansa and Sandor meet when both are mature. I might change my mind regarding SanSan when that happens, but as long as Sansa's imaginings and feelings are based on her experiences when she was 11-12, I can't help but question the foundation of their relationship.

Again, this puzzles me. This hypothetical meet up in the future has to be based on the relationship they managed to form in the past. Yes, Sansa may be more mature, and Sandor less harsh, but the feelings they express to one another will be as a result of what took place when she was 11-12.

It is possible for Sansa to freely choose Sandor and that their resultant relationship still is twisted and unhealthy. It's not clear that this is what will happen, and until it does, I think it justified to express one's concerns regarding the match.

Then we have to examine the reasons for her choice, not attack the choice itself. It seems to me like her appreciation for Sandor is based on his honourable principles such as loyalty and honesty, along with her sexual attraction to him. These do not strike me as twisted or unhealthy things.

Oh, come on. I don't deny that there are positive aspects to SanSan; I have never argued that there's an absence of good things in their relationship, rather that there are also many, many bad things. A foundation is built of the good and the bad together.

Then you should have mentioned those good things. As for the bad things, well, he's harsh and can be verbally cruel, he was also violent towards her on the night of the BB. Outside of those things I don't know about the bad bad things you are speaking of. He does have emotional issues, but overall, when we're talking about the benefits of their interaction, those clearly outweigh his negative personality traits. And yes, a foundation is built on the good and bad; no one is perfect.

So, are we invoking the principal tenets of Westerosi marriages to buttress our arguments with respect to the suitability of SanSan now? If so, it would have been right and decent for Tyrion take Sansa's maidenhead after their wedding; Westerosi custom doesn't seem to recognise the husband claiming his rights as being conditional on the wife's consent.

I have no idea how these two things correlate. You claimed that his continued protection of her would be "creepy", and my point to counter this was simply to ask why should it be creepy? This is something standard in Westerosi society where a woman is expected to be protected by her husband. I then said that even without this, Sandor continues to show personal responsibility to Sansa and I see nothing wrong with this.

If we're going to discuss this, I would like to share a little anecdote. Just a few years ago, Sweden's crown princess was getting married. Since I'm a republican (note: lower-case 'r'), I was pretty indifferent to the whole affair. However, there was some controversy regarding the Church of Sweden and their objections to some aspect of the wedding that caught my attention. Initially, I thought, "Oh, that's typical, the Church is annoyed over something. What do we care what conservative clergymen have to say?" What surprised me, however, was that the church's concern was that the crown princess wanted the traditional ceremony, where her father the king delivered her to her soon-to-be husband. The practice was conservative and patriarchal, the church said, and not at all appropriate in contemporary Sweden. I mention this because customs that may be commonplace in other parts of the world, particularly North America, may not be practised everywhere, and that this may colour our perception of similar traditions depicted in fiction. My natural response is to regard the institution of Westerosi marriage with similar suspicion.

That's all well and good, but again I don't understand why you claimed that Sandor protecting her would be creepy. If you were making a point regarding the power imbalance, my response would be similar to Lyanna's upthread. Sansa is (hopefully) moving towards greater power and autonomy in her life, and is not in the same kind of captive situation she was back in KL. However, within the domains of personal relationships, I see nothing wrong with a man wanting to protect his lover/wife and vice versa. Sandor has protected Sansa with hard power mostly, but she's also done her fair share of protecting him as well.

I don't agree with this. She doesn't have Sandor around to be constantly reminded of his scars, which makes it much, much easier for her to forget or gloss over the fact of his appearance. I don't think it would diminish Sansa or the complexity of their relationship if Sandor's scars still mattered when they met up again, and she couldn't retreat into fantasy but would be confronted with a less rosy reality.

His scars are horrific, but why is it hard to believe that she might simply not be bothered about them anymore? Look at the erotic dream she has in the Fingers:

And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion's eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into bed his face was scarred only on one side. "I'll have a song from you," he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again.

So even in her fantasies, his scars are present, and she hasn't seen him now for many months. Sansa has come to terms with Sandor's appearance and still wants him. Why should her seeing him again cause a change, when she's seeing him as he is even in her dreams?

[bloodymime]

Ok this has me cracking up! :) Mind if I steal it for my sig? Credited to you of course.

You're too kind and please feel free. And I'd also have no problem with someone actually knowing what they were talking about when it comes to mathematical equations polish it up and make it sound sensible.