From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa V

[Kittykatknits]

Kittykatknits:

& I love this! I do want them to stay together in the end, and I’m one of those who thinks that a marriage or a lovers relationship down the road could happen between them, and that that they will be as happy as a bittersweet ending can allow. But, I can also see that marrying Sandor may cost Sansa some pretty big sacrifices. Like the allegiances of some the North and its lords, or her family’s respect or her chance to rule at Winterfell. But I like how you wrote it cause it reminded me of Maester Aemon’s beautiful speech to Jon about love & duty:

But Brash’s words make it sound a little better when you think of them waning to be with each other in the end if George allows it:

If they end up together, and it is a very big if for me, I think Sansa would need to make a very conscious decision to accept him. In some ways, he would be a burden to her. I believe that Sansa will always be the more emotionally mature of he two and he will always have insecurities. That's not a bad thing exactly, as she would be equipped to handle it but there would still be that burdensome aspect of it. This relationship doesn't qualify as HEA to me at least. He does have skills to offer her that I think Sansa, after everything that she has been through would value highly, his honesty being the primary one. I'd love them to stay together too but as you say, it would be as happy as bittersweet can allow. There is a cost to this that Sansa would need to recognize.

That really was unnecessarily cruel... do we ever see the Hound doing anything like this after?

During the riot, Sansa describes him as "his face transformed". He's enjoying himself during the riots.

[Alissa]

To be clear what I'm saying is I think a lot of Sandor's attitude is a defense mechanism as a result, at the risk of sounding cheesy, of his ideas of justice being seared into him at such an early age. His own father not only fails to protect him but does little more than blame Sandor himself for it with the idea his bedding caught fire. Granted my own moral compass can swing wildly already but if that shit happened to me I'd probably go a lot farther than just thinking all the justice I'd find in the world is going to be in the strength of my sword.

Yes, I agree with this. What I forgot to add in my last post and why I highlighted what I did: he laughs after they break and run, not when he's actually fighting and killing. I mean, if he enjoys killing so much, you'd think he'd laugh while he's fighting, not when it's all over. I think it confirms your argument, is all I wanted to say :-)

brashcandy, that's an interesting thought, Sansa's process of turning into Alayne Stone being similar. Until now her only defence mechanism has been her courtesy, now she has a whole new identity to hide behind, especially if she decides to remain Alayne Stone after she (hopefully) gets rid of Littlefinger.

[bloodymime]

Yes, I agree with this. What I forgot to add in my last post and why I highlighted what I did: he laughs after they break and run, not when he's actually fighting and killing. I mean, if he enjoys killing so much, you'd think he'd laugh while he's fighting, not when it's all over. I think it confirms your argument, is all I wanted to say :-)

brashcandy, that's an interesting thought, Sansa's process of turning into Alayne Stone being similar. Until now her only defence mechanism has been her courtesy, now she has a whole new identity to hide behind, especially if she decides to remain Alayne Stone after she (hopefully) gets rid of Littlefinger.

No worries, I meant to expand on my thoughts before and had forgotten until I saw your post.

[brashcandy]

brashcandy, that's an interesting thought, Sansa's process of turning into Alayne Stone being similar. Until now her only defence mechanism has been her courtesy, now she has a whole new identity to hide behind, especially if she decides to remain Alayne Stone after she (hopefully) gets rid of Littlefinger.

Yes :) It's like being Alayne Stone gives her freedom from the courtesy armor (which while useful, must have been extremely emotionally exhausting). She can use it to do/say/consider the things that might have normally scared Sansa Stark, and as a defence mechanism it can shield her true thoughts/feelings.

[Tagganaro]

Yes :) It's like being Alayne Stone gives her freedom from the courtesy armor (which while useful, must have been extremely emotionally exhausting). She can use it to do/say/consider the things that might have normally scared Sansa Stark, and as a defence mechanism it can shield her true thoughts/feelings.

I think it indirectly does. Which is to say that not fearing for her life on a momentary and consistent basis gives her more confidence/bravery. LF is not nearly as abusive/terrifying as Joffrey was. Now with crazy Lysa out of the way too, this has to be the safest and most comfortable Sansa has been since early Book One.

I think the key for Sansa will be maintaining the confidence/intelligence/even a little bit of cynicism that she has as Alayne Stone for when she reveals or is revealed to be Sansa Stark. Then, she might really be able to be powerful.

[mythsandstuff]

I think the key for Sansa will be maintaining the confidence/intelligence/even a little bit of cynicism that she has as Alayne Stone for when she reveals or is revealed to be Sansa Stark. Then, she might really be able to be powerful.

Is that something she's going to have to work to maintain, do you think? Or is it one of those discoveries about self that you just don't turn back from, even if you hide it sometimes (the power of being underestimated, and all).

[1234567]

In many ways Sansa is experiencing what Arya did as soon as she took on the 'Arry/ Weasel/ Nan roles. She can now be free to a certain extent of being a pawn and also of being watched and beaten for who she is. Whilst being a bastard has negative connetations, she is beginning to see the freedom that Mya Stone has (who also I notice has refused various marriage options Nestor Royce has suggested for her).

Arya has been able to follow her own path and not be used as a pawn and has flown under the radar because of her assumed identities. Oddly I think both girls are now reversing roles: Sansa is finding safety in her assumed role and although still attached to LF, she is certainly less of a pawn than she was in KL. Reversely Arya was able to escape through her assumed identity but was not safe within it. Now she is with the faceless men who know who she is and are making her into their pawn (to a certain extent, as was the case when she was with Sandor and the BWB). Arya's assumed identities saved her from being dragged back to KL, but they also placed her in danger on numerous occassions, whilst Sansa's known identity made her life a misery and her assumed one is letting her have some degree of peace and a feeling of safety. She has gone under the radar.

So whilst Arya was in more danger with an assumed identity, and now more of a willing pawn as part of a group who know who she is, Sansa was in more danger when people know who she is and safer and less of a pawn with an assumed identity.

[Elba the Intoner]

During the riot, Sansa describes him as "his face transformed". He's enjoying himself during the riots.

The thing about this here though is that while he clearly is enjoying himself, I thought it was more because he was doing something to protect/save Sansa here. There's a purpose to his fighting in the riots which is the protection of someone he's coming to care about. So, is he laughing here or seemingly transformed, which I took to mean almost happy, simply because he is fighting or because he's protecting Sansa?

This situation is directly in contrast to the other time Sandor seems to laugh after cutting someone down, which of course is the terrible incident with Mycah. I too felt that the laughing about it seemed unnecessarily cruel. Perhaps the fact that Sandor's face is transformed during his fight in the riots has to do with the fact he himself is changing inside from being a "butcher" who kills on order without care and someone who is more selective about it. I would bet that a lot of his rationale for deciding to join up with Robb has as much to do with Robb being considered honorable as it does with wanting to make himself look good to Sansa.

[Kittykatknits]

That's why I couldn't find the quote. lol. I was looking for "your father's wits". Makes sense.

I still got the feeling that he is stroking her ego. I mean, the whole Lyn Corbrary scheme seemed so obvious that if Sansa pretended not to know what was really going on, it might have signaled to LF that she was purposely trying to deceive him. As it is, it seems as though she has to walk a fine balance between appearing to be somewhat clever but not clever enough and she's proven intelligent enough to figure out that balance.

I think he's doing a bit of both actually. He's stroking her ego a bit. It's similar to the way he's commented on her beauty. But, I think he also recognizes her intelligence. This is one incident but he's also turned over her running the Eeyrie and shutting it down for the winter. I'd say he respects her intelligence. And, he is manipulating her, as much as he is teacher her to be a player, he does want to keep her a pawn. But, the fact that he has told her as much as he has, to me that speaks volumes.

As to the Lyn Corbrary scene, I had to read that a few times to figure out what was going on. Sansa was smarter than I was. :blushing: :blushing:

Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely not convinced that she's stunted or traumatized or anything, but I wouldn't blame her if she was haha. Thinking about all the stuff that's happened to her in a "sexual" way, pretty much every instance has rape written all over it. That being said, after Joffrey and to a much lesser extent Loras, I've never seen her interact with a guy who she was really attracted to. The Hound after the fact, but no one in any type of present interaction.

Should be very interesting to see her with Harry the Heir, who has kind of been made out to be, I don't know, attractive and seductive I guess.

He's made out to be attractive but we haven't heard much that is positive so far. He's already go two bastards on him and sounded an awful lot like Robert to me. I don't think Sansa will be impressed. Either way, I'm also curious to see what she does.

The thing about this here though is that while he clearly is enjoying himself, I thought it was more because he was doing something to protect/save Sansa here. There's a purpose to his fighting in the riots which is the protection of someone he's coming to care about. So, is he laughing here or seemingly transformed, which I took to mean almost happy, simply because he is fighting or because he's protecting Sansa?

This situation is directly in contrast to the other time Sandor seems to laugh after cutting someone down, which of course is the terrible incident with Mycah. I too felt that the laughing about it seemed unnecessarily cruel. Perhaps the fact that Sandor's face is transformed during his fight in the riots has to do with the fact he himself is changing inside from being a "butcher" who kills on order without care and someone who is more selective about it. I would bet that a lot of his rationale for deciding to join up with Robb has as much to do with Robb being considered honorable as it does with wanting to make himself look good to Sansa.

I've thought a lot on this description of him. The whole line says he was laughing, his face for a moment transformed. I'm to lazy to look it up so that probably isn't an exact quote. I've wondered if it was simply him just taking joy in killing, a throwback to his "killing is the sweetest thing their is" line. Or, if he is enjoying the moment as it is a chance to do what he is good at, similar to how a craftsmen takes joy or pride in their work. We know he's proud of saving Sansa, he confirms that with her later and again when talking to Sansa. I think he was almost happy in that moment, the laugh, to me, doesn't match with just being happy to save Sansa. But, I can see how the fact that he is also saving her gives a purpose to the killing that he is not used to, which may better explain that, giving him multiple motivations for the joy he is feeling.

[Raksha the Demon]

The Sansa of AGOT might well have been impressed with handsome young Harry, but Sansa-Alayne is far older and emotionally scarred. She relates far more to the physically and emotionally scarred Hound; who has also witnessed some of her tribulations and also endured the burden of allegiance to Joffrey. Harry-the-Heir is a pretty boy who is the darling of the Vale; he has never known prolonged fear and persecution and isolation; and that will divide him from Sansa the way she felt distanced from Margaery Tyrell's gaggle of gossipy girls - she did not dislike them for their youth and innocence, she felt somewhat envious, but she also recognized a difference between her and the girls she had befriended that seemed to sadden her a little.

Sandor's rather terrible joy in killing is problematic, in my opinion, for any future long-term relationship with Sansa. It does make him a good protector during war; but is not so conducive to a peacetime relationship. It's also a troubling connection to the Mountain, who craves not only violence but brutality. I wonder if GRRM wrote Sandor's pleasure over slaughtering poor Mycah before he thought up the bond between Sandor and Sansa.

[Kittykatknits]

I don't think that the shock will be that he didn't kiss her, but that he has a completely different view of what happened. For him it seems to have been his lowest point; he dwells on the fact that the song he was crowing to Arya about was something he had to force from her, and that he meant to rape her. He may also have a different view of their relationship in general. They do have a connection, but so much of what we see is coloured by Sansa's thoughts in her POVs, which are mixed up with her own romanticized notions about things. She may also have romantic and/or sexual feelings for the Hound which are clouding her mind, but that's all what she's projecting on him. That she feels something doesn't mean that he feels the same.

For the record, I agree with everything that brashcandy says but I want to expand on just a couple small points. His feelings are fully developed for her but realize that he does not necessarily completely understand what they are or how to deal with him. He has very little experience with relationships and none with positive or healthy ones. Notice the way he speaks about Sansa while traveling with Arya, especially the way he describes his rescue during the riot and the song that she sang for him. Each time he brings it up, he does so with a sense of pride. He tells Arya that she sang for him, she gave him the song. He also rescued her from the riot, just like a knight in shining armor. In other words, he's romanticizing their time together too.

Also, take a look at their conversation on the serpentine steps. If you are focusing on the dialogue, much of what is happening will pass unnoticed. Concentrate on the scene itself and what he is doing, match his actions with what he is saying as they start talking and move towards her room. His comments on her body and the line about having a song from her are often commented on but pay attention to the rest of it, that scene takes on a whole new meaning.

I have no doubt that the Hound told the Elder Brother all about Sansa, since he immediately recognizes her from Brienne's description, but Sansa isn't even alluded to in the Elder Brother's discussion of the Hound's life. So it's up in the air, at least to me. I think that the death blow to Sansa's romanticized views would be not so much realizing that the kiss never happened but learning that the Hound attaches a very different significance to the event than she does and, by extension, I think, to their relationship.

Everything the EB told Brienne while she was on the QI was the truth, but that doesn't mean it was the whole truth either. :) Remember, she came to the isle looking for him in order to kill him. When she first tells the other brothers on the isle her purpose, she even pulls out her sword. The EB is being very careful as he wants to stop her looking for the Hound so he is telling her only what he thinks will have the most impact on stopping her quest and getting her to return home to her father. So, the EB tells Brienne about his pain, the negative aspects of his life. He's saying what needs to be said for her to understand that his old life, the brutal reputation of the Hound that she knew is dead. That's the information which can sway Brienne for her quest. She doesn't need to know about the rest of it.

Edit: Spelling

[Valkyrja]

I must be strange....Sandor's laughter while killing doesn't really bother me. I think I am just extremely used to reading Norse sagas and historical fiction with lots of bloodshed, and one thing that always happens is that when a character is overcome with the battle-joy, they forget everything else and exist in the moment that the fighting takes place. Its like a 'high'. I guess I just don't consider it to be some evil thing, but rather something that fighting men in general experience in those situations. Sandor might find it especially appealing to 'lose himself' in such moments.....that's what, imo, he means when he says 'killing is the sweetest thing there is."

[Raksha the Demon]

I think it's one thing to rejoice in having killed someone who was trying to kill you, to laugh out of the adrenaline that must be spiking at record highs in a battle situation, and another to proudly state long after the battle that killing is the sweetest thing there is. I make a distinction between a warrior, or a soldier, who is thrilled to kill his enemy because it guarantees his own and/or his comrades' survival (or even because he's supposed to kill the enemy to win the battle or war) and a warrior or soldier that admits to enjoying the act of killing itself. I'd feel a bit chary of someone who got became berserker-high on slaughtering a 12-year-old peasant who was running away, even if I believe that the Hound's guilt for killing Mycah is arguable.

[Lady Lea]

Also, take a look at their conversation on the serpentine steps. If you are focusing on the dialogue, much of what is happening will pass unnoticed. Concentrate on the scene itself and what he is doing, match his actions with what he is saying as they start talking and move towards her room. His comments on her body and the line about having a song from her are often commented on but pay attention to the rest of it, that scene takes on a whole new meaning.

I reread the scene but it still doesn't make much sense to me... At first he comes out of nowhere and acts very drunk and says a bunch of disconnected things, then he says he will take her to her room... then he tells off Boros and becomes circumspect and brooding (why?). Then he gets really talkative and explains his House's story... a really beautiful line too, I love how he talks about the "yellow of autumn grass". He is really gentle in the end too, cupping her face, it's almost melancholy.

Can you explain the meaning you see in his actions?

[Valkyrja]

I think it's one thing to rejoice in having killed someone who was trying to kill you, to laugh out of the adrenaline that must be spiking at record highs in a battle situation, and another to proudly state long after the battle that killing is the sweetest thing there is. I make a distinction between a warrior, or a soldier, who is thrilled to kill his enemy because it guarantees his own and/or his comrades' survival (or even because he's supposed to kill the enemy to win the battle or war) and a warrior or soldier that admits to enjoying the act of killing itself. I'd feel a bit chary of someone who got became berserker-high on slaughtering a 12-year-old peasant who was running away, even if I believe that the Hound's guilt for killing Mycah is arguable.

Like I said, I am a bit strange ;) .....but yeah, I don't see his *act of killing* an innocent boy like poor Mycah as 'normal'. I just meant that the laughter and strange joy (at the riot as well) seemed at least slightly more familiar and understandable to me.

ETA: I'm not trying to be a Sandor Clegane apologist, I like the character as he is written and I appreciate his complexity in all its beauty and ugliness. I was just trying to say that the laughter thing was not something that really stuck out to me in such a terribly negative way like it does to certain readers.

[Kittykatknits]

I reread the scene but it still doesn't make much sense to me... At first he comes out of nowhere and acts very drunk and says a bunch of disconnected things, then he says he will take her to her room... then he tells off Boros and becomes circumspect and brooding (why?). Then he gets really talkative and explains his House's story... a really beautiful line too, I love how he talks about the "yellow of autumn grass". He is really gentle in the end too, cupping her face, it's almost melancholy.

Can you explain the meaning you see in his actions?

I gotta go to bed but I'll put something together for you in the morning. I reread it several times, picturing them in my head until I saw it. Brashcandy and Lyanna Stark first pointed it out to me, I didn't get it at first.

[Howling Mad]

Not picking a fight just curious. One of the reasons put forth against the Tyrion/Sansa marriage is the age difference with Tyrion being older (mid 20's?) while Snasa is still a child (14?). Actually many posts have gone as far as to say a consummation of their marriage would have been child rape. Now contrast this with the threads above whereby readers are swooning over the thought of a Sandor/Sansa relationship. By all accounts Sandor is the same age as Tyrion. Why does the clearly adult Sandor get a pass on the child rape charges and Tyrion does not? I can understand that people dislike Tyrion (he is a Lannister). But why attack the Tyrion/Sansa marraige on the age issue and completely ignore the age difference as it relates to Sandor?

[Thel]

Howling, I should probably let the initiated handle this one---but I might get the ball rolling by saying : consummation of a Sansa/Tyrion union would be not consensual given the bride's revulsion of her groom. The timbre of the Sansa/Sandor discussion leads me to believe that Sansa considers her own developing sexuality, desire, self awareness in response to the Hounds presence in her life. Whether this is psychic/fantasy (the kiss) or given by proximity, he's a 'freely' chosen catalyst whereas Tyrion is not.

[Lady Lea]

What Thel said, and also, for those of us who do believe something could happen between these characters, it would be in the future, when she is older. And she was 13 when she was married to Tyrion, not 14. I don't think I've ever seen anyone here saying they should have started a relationship in KL, that would be weird. Sandor never made inappropriate advances on her (kissing, caressing, etc) like Tyrion and Littlefinger do.

ETA: cool, thanks Kitty!

[Howling Mad]

I understand the issue of Sansa (or the readers) disliking Tyrion and loving Sandor. I don't understand why Sandor gets a pass on sex with a minor and Tyrion gets added to a sex offender list. Why the double styandard on this issue? If child sex is contemptable behavior it shouldn't matter who is involved.

ETA I don't buy the "its when their older argument" as this disclaimer is rarely if ever mentioned in the same posts expousing a San/San relationship.