From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa V

[Kittykatknits]

Am I making sense here? :) I guess my conclusion would be that Sansa is still a girl caught between two worlds. She's still "innocent" in the physical sense, but she's had some mature experiences relating to men and sexuality which are informing her outlook. Essentially, she's developing into womanhood: beginning to have sexual fantasies and more thoughts about the kiss from Sandor.

I would imagine that given LF's task for her to charm Harry the heir, we should see her having her more thoughts on her on virgin status and how it impacts on her future. How is she going to be able to "use" it without compromising her maidenhood. And certainly it's a huge plot point in the potential annulment of her marriage to Tyrion.

Yes, you are making complete sense here!! Thank you brashcandy for putting this together. It helped me to better understand my thoughts earlier too. That highlighted sentence is what I was trying to get to earlier but not doing a great job of it.

I'm very curious where this plot lie goes and what she does with Harry and how this plays out with Tyrion. You know my opinion on that marriage but I am very curious how the marriage itself plays out in the feature.

[brashcandy]

@Newstar - Martin has confirmed that unkiss memory is indeed a mismemory, and we are shown via Sansa's POV that nothing happens between her and the Hound. I remember a while back in one of the previous threads there was a pretty good theory on Sansa maybe warging Sandor on that night, but it would be hell to find it now. Outside of these alternative theories, I think what makes that night so compelling for analysis is how each character later comes to think/talk about it. I have my own theory on why the unkiss is important, but I'm still writing that up. Basically, rather than seeing the unkiss as negative repression, I view it as positive creation. And there is more evidence that Sansa hasn't blocked out something traumatic - we actually "see" the Hound leaving after she sings the song and he cries. Does Sansa fall asleep afterward or lay on the bed a bit dazed before she rises to put on his cloak? It's not clear, but I don't think the theory of the Hound doing something to her which she has repressed holds any water, and I say that as someone who has seriously considered it at one point myself.

[Pod The Impaler]

In AFFC we also see her interacting with people in a different way. She doesn't use her courtesy armour in the same way, instead she is adopting Littlefinger's way of speaking more, and she coaxes and persuades Sweetrobin with promises, manipulation and lies. Has Littlefinger helped create Sansa the not Lady? It almost seems that way. And while Sansa the Lady would be no threat to him since she'd operate within the confines of her role, Sansa the not Lady may not be so pliant.

Well, she's still a sort of prisoner, though she doesn't always seem to acknowledge it. She is trapped in the situation Littlefinger's laced her in.

I think his plan is to turn her slowly into a game-player more along the lines of what he is, to entice her into thinking in this manner. I don't see it as him wanted her to be his "daughter" in the end, but rather that he is trying to gradually make her into a version of Catelyn that is more suited to his desires. She ends up as his noble wife and shares his power at the same time as being a big reason why he has it. Plus she is perhaps even more beautiful than Cat ever was.

However, from what I've seen, she finds him amiable enough, and she complies with him, but as someone said she is still of two minds about him - she likes Petyr Baelish well enough, but dislikes / distrusts Littlefinger. I do not think Sansa is becoming what he is, with the ruthless cunning of a true puppet master (even if she is that smart, I don't see her being that detached from compassion). She has learned a great deal about using deception to protect herself, and about who to trust and who not to. The more politically aware she becomes, the more she will see how devious he is. Sansa may still be a prisoner of her situation, and if she senses an opportunity to get out, I think the little bird is going to fly. This may be to Littlefinger's peril in the end.

Very intriguing :) I would say yes, even without becoming Alayne Stone, she would have lost her identification with being a lady (probably starting with the death of her wolf). When LF first proposes the bastard identity to her she is a bit mortified, but in AFFC we see her realising that she can still be a functioning happy individual without such noble status. I think we have to consider why Sansa was so determined to be a "lady" in the first place. To my mind, leaving out her natural temperament and inclinations, it was because she was simply good at being a lady, and ladies are the ones allowed to marry lords and princes and all the fine stuff. Now Sansa is discovering another performance, and she's good at this one too. What's more, this performance might allow for greater autonomy, not being tied to a claim or a forced marriage, restrictions which she's come to abhor.

She is naturally good at being a lady, courtesy as her armour, and charm (once she learns to wield it strongly) as her sword.

She was initially horrified at being "Alayne" the bastard, no doubt because she grew up being her mother's daughter, and therefore was a "good girl" by hating or disdaining Jon Snow as her mother did. I think now, she regrets how she treated him, and probably has begun to see how pointless it was.

[Newstar]

there is more evidence that Sansa hasn't blocked out something traumatic - we actually "see" the Hound leaving after she sings the song and he cries. Does Sansa fall asleep afterward or lay on the bed a bit dazed before she rises to put on his cloak?

I think the "Sansa was raped" theory is that Sansa's memories of the incident can't be trusted at all, even if it seems like in the relevant paragraph, all the time leading up to the Hound's departure is accounted for: the "long moments later" before she crawls out of bed take place after she hears the sound of retreating footsteps, supposedly.

Basically, rather than seeing the unkiss as negative repression, I view it as positive creation.

I think it's definitely a plausible interpretation to say that Sansa's non-negative memory of the assault and false kiss memory are her way of seeing through all of the Hound's terror and rage to his genuine emotion for her and responding to that. She never seems to view the Hound as a threat to her safety prior to Blackwater, either, for all his bluster and menace, so maybe her non-negative memory of his actions is a reflection of her understanding of the Hound.

However, i also think it's a plausible interpretation that Sansa's non-negative memory of the assault and the Hound in general and her false kiss memory are her way of repurposing and coping with something unpleasant by retreating into a romanticized version of the facts, even if that "something" is only the Hound shoving her on the bed and threatening her with a knife. It's certainly not the first time she's done this: she manages to repurpose the prospect of being married off to Willas Tyrell for her claim into a vision of an idyllic life at Highgarden with puppies and flowers.She never focuses on the fact that the Hound held a knife to her throat, only on the kiss and his offer to take her from King's Landing. The more time passes, the gauzier and more romantic her memory gets. By the time of AFFC, her recollection of that incident is "He took a song and a kiss and left me nothing but a bloody cloak." Nothing about his rage, about his use of force, about her terror at the time, about the clear threat of sexual violence; it sounds more like a wistful girl who's been used and abandoned by her lover than a girl who's been assaulted...which is funny, because the Hound seems properly horrified by his actions. I think it would be very difficult for Sansa to accept that someone she'd come to trust and view as a protector could do what the Hound did during Blackwater; in ACOK during Blackwater, she doesn't think that the Hound will harm her, and yet that's exactly what he winds up doing, thus the mental backpedaling. She might also have genuine romantic or sexual feelings for the Hound which are gumming up her objectivity and getting her to shape the Hound's actions into something more grandiose, more poetic, more romantic than a drunk guy waving a knife around and coming thisclose to raping her.

I do think there's a serious possibility that if Sansa ever meets the Hound again, she'll be confronted with the reality that his version and her version of Blackwater are very different. I remember the Loras/Sansa situation, when Sansa realizes that she's been attached to an incident which held no meaning for Loras, which he doesn't even remember. Now, the Hound does remember the Blackwater incident, but he likely remembers it less as a romantic parting of lovers and more as the time he assaulted and contemplating raping someone he wanted nothing more than to protect. He seems to regret what he did to Sansa more than anything he's ever done, and the Hound's done a lot of terrible things. I think it would very disillusioning for Sansa--the A-bomb to Loras' grenade--to have to face the truth not only about what didn't happen, but how she's yet again built up another fantasy in her mind.

My concern, I guess you could say, is that if Sansa never meets the Hound again, she'll continue believing the kiss did in fact happen, since he's the only one who can independently confirm it never took place. Littlefinger's life was blighted, I think, not just by his humiliation at Brandon's hands but also by the lie he told himself about Catelyn losing her virginity to him and what it meant (that Cat loved him and they were only cruelly separated by status). As more time passes, Sansa is thinking of the kiss more and more these days. Will her life be blighted the same way, by obsessing on some romantic figment of her imagination?

[Caro99]

Brash:

Could she experience a similar "tarnishing" of that attachment to her past, where reclaiming Sansa Stark is no longer possible in light of all that has happened?

I hope this doesn’t happen! I could see Sansa ruling as Alayne in the Vale of Arryn, but losing her identity as Sansa or as a Stark I think in a way would mean that a lot of Sansa’s best qualities would have to be sacrificed.

But apart from the white cloak, the hairnet (which doesn’t fit here) and maybe the doll on the show I guess, there aren’t any many objects Sansa has attached herself to. So Sandor and the cloak could be her Needle (since she does hide it in her summer silks, which I think can be a parallel to the last book’s title) or maybe her siblings could be it, once she meets them again. But as it has been said before, I also believe Sandor is Lady’s replacement, thus her main link to the past.

But about Arya and the initial question, it would be soooo sad to read that Needle has gone to rust and the realization that Arya is dead and she has to forget her past or something… I love to think that she’ll use it once again when she is ready to return home, so this new theory just made me so sad L

Lady you said this:

I actually very much felt the Hound was her connection to her Stark identity, or at least part of it. Harder to capture a relationship as the tie to her Stark identity, as opposed to an inanimate object like Arya's Needle, but when she would think of him she would say something (to paraphrase) 'but that was Sansa, and I'm no longer her' and push the thought of him away. I could very much see her continue precariously down the Alayne path with actions that are perhaps slightly morally ambiguous, and then reunite with Sandor at some point and re-forge that connection to her Sansa side. Just a thought but it was something that stood out to me upon first read - how closely she linked the Hound with Sansa.

I think that Sandor would prefer Sansa to return to her Stark identity than staying as Alayne when they meet again. Alayne has to be all about lies and pretending at the moment, so Sandor, while appreciating Sansa’s growing confidence and maybe even Mya & Randa’s future pillow talk, could just maybe hate it and hate what LF is doing to her… if the theory where Sansa has to stay a Stone to be safe or so she can be with Sandor or whatever came true at the end, I see her returning to being Sansa, only taking on the name of Stone, not Alayne since Stone could mean a safe haven and the renounce of Alayne could be Sansa giving up politics and the game for true. Or well, something like that :P

Lyanna:

It makes it even more fascinating that all this is flying completely under Littlefinger's radar. He thinks Sansa is Cat 2.0, including the dutifulness, but I think there Sansa has already distanced herself from what her mother was like. She's recognised that in her current situation that will get her nowhere except into another marriage farce. Interestingly, during AGOT, ACOK and up to the wedding with Tyrion, "dutiful" and reminders to herself to be courteous come up constantly, but after that we see far less of it, and in AFFC nothing.

I agree with this for a lot of reasons!! & with this from raspie:

I don't know if it is another connection, but when Ned goes to kill Lady, he says that Lady deserves better than a butcher. Sansa certainly deserves someone better than a butcher (of men) and even post QI there would be better choices than Sandor.....Aegon or Pod for starters. But then again we don't always get what we deserve and more importantly we sometimes do not want what we deserve

And how ironic that after ned kills lady sandor, a self-proclaimed butcher- just happens to pass by carrying the butcher’s son… a pretty important plot down the road which even Arya came to “forgive” about Sandor.

Kittykatknits:

When you look at it this way, he isn't much of a catch, yet Sansa wants him. So, in a sense, she may get what she wants but it isn't close to what she deserves.

& I love this! I do want them to stay together in the end, and I’m one of those who thinks that a marriage or a lovers relationship down the road could happen between them, and that that they will be as happy as a bittersweet ending can allow. But, I can also see that marrying Sandor may cost Sansa some pretty big sacrifices. Like the allegiances of some the North and its lords, or her family’s respect or her chance to rule at Winterfell. But I like how you wrote it cause it reminded me of Maester Aemon’s beautiful speech to Jon about love & duty:

"Love is the bane of honor, the death of duty... A craven be as brave as any man, when there is nothing to fear. And we all do our duty, when there is no cost to it. How easy it seems then, to walk the path of honor. Yet soon or late in a man's life comes a day when it is not easy, a day when he must choose."

But Brash’s words make it sound a little better when you think of them waning to be with each other in the end if George allows it:

As for my earlier point about going back and finding items linked to our identity that have become tarnished, impossible to reclaim, if we were to apply this to the bloody cloak (and Sandor Clegane)- they've already been tarnished and sullied. Sansa isn't keeping a spotless white cloak in her possessions and the owner of that cloak was a profoundly flawed man, who has since faced even more negative accusations. She's faced these realities already, and so the reverse process might be evident instead she'd be returning to find a man who's gone through much needed healing and who is at peace with himself.

And there was some talk about what this will mean down the road:“A hound will die for you, but never lie to you…”

Well, I think that all of you who said that Sandor has already “kept” his word here when he ended up sacrificing the Hound. But the man behind the dog head’s helm is very much alive we must hope, and so still has some pretty important things coming to him before long, mainly regarding Sansa and Un--Gregor I suppose.

By the way, I liked your first post ever in this thread Knight, but I am sure that I will love the next one where you promise to give us some good SanSan lovers thoughts ;)

To wrap it up, about Sansa and how much she is aware of what being still a maiden means, I have a feeling that LF or Harry the Heir may change that soon and she will now maybe not only be aware of it but has to protect it even more..

[Lady Lea]

That quote of the Hound's is very strangely written, though: "I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her, too. I should have. I should have *bleeped* her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf." There are two interpretations here, but to me, only one of them makes sense:

1. Take = take Sansa away from King's Landing. "I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her [away] too. I should have [taken her with me]. I should have *bleeped* her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf." If that's the interpretation, then his comment that he should have had sex with her and then murdered her is a complete non sequitur from what came before. I should have taken her with me, but I also should have done something horrible to her rather than leave her for Tyrion? Unless he equates physically removing her from King's Landing with the worst possible thing he could do to her, it makes no sense.

2. Take = rape Sansa. "I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to [rape] her, too. I should have [raped her]. I should have *bleeped* her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf." This is a logical progression. I took (in the sense of seizing) the song. I meant to take her, too. I should have, etc. etc. He says he took something from Sansa, says he should have "taken" her as well and goes on to specify that he should have screwed her bloody.

Welcome to the threads Newstar!

This quote was written this way to drive us crazy... it is known. I will add my 2 cents though. I think he meant "take her" with him but the second part, imo, is an escalation of that regret, not an actual desire to fuck her and kill her.

We know he really hated Tyrion, and he probably thought that her marrying him was the worst possible fate for her (as evidenced by his reaction to the news). I think his thought process here is something like "I should have taken her with me. Anything would have been better than leaving her in the hands of that dwarf". The "fuck" part is because he knows the value she had as a maid, and the kill, well that is obvious, he didn't want them to take her alive. Basically he thought it'd be better if she was ruined and killed than if she was forced to marry Tyrion.

It makes more sense if you also think about his regret for letting the guards beat her, like Lyanna pointed out. A man who regrets that, when he also saved her many times, would not be thinking, almost immediately after, of how he should have raped and killed her.

[brashcandy]

I think the "Sansa was raped" theory is that Sansa's memories of the incident can't be trusted at all, even if it seems like in the relevant paragraph, all the time leading up to the Hound's departure is accounted for: the "long moments later" before she crawls out of bed take place after she hears the sound of retreating footsteps, supposedly.

I don't know why we should suddenly assume Sansa's memories can't be trusted in this one incident. She's previously shown herself to be a reliable narrator of her own story.

I think it's definitely a plausible interpretation to say that Sansa's non-negative memory of the assault and false kiss memory are her way of seeing through all of the Hound's terror and rage to his genuine emotion for her and responding to that. She never seems to view the Hound as a threat to her safety prior to Blackwater, either, for all his bluster and menace, so maybe her non-negative memory of his actions is a reflection of her understanding of the Hound.

This is a plausible theory, I agree.

However, i also think it's a plausible interpretation that Sansa's non-negative memory of the assault and the Hound in general and her false kiss memory are her way of repurposing and coping with something unpleasant by retreating into a romanticized version of the facts, even if that "something" is only the Hound shoving her on the bed and threatening her with a knife. It's certainly not the first time she's done this: she manages to repurpose the prospect of being married off to Willas Tyrell for her claim into a vision of an idyllic life at Highgarden with puppies and flowers.

This is where we differ in our interpretations. I don't think that just because Sansa believes the Hound kissed on her on that night that it automatically means that she's forgotten the other unpleasant aspects. I think people see the romanticising and simply assume that there must be repression involved. I personally believe that Sansa is quite cognisant about all that took place that night, it's just that she chooses to believe Sandor kissed her in addition to everything else. As for her thoughts on Willas Tyrell, that's the most realistic I've ever seen Sansa. Just because she thinks of pleasure barges and puppies doesn't mean she hasn't dealt with the reality of the situation. She knows he's crippled and considers that he could be just as unattractive as his father. Sansa knows this isn't an ideal arrangement, but she's willing to make the best of it and be a committed wife, not trying to indulge in fantasies to offset the details of the alliance. The truth is that her thoughts might really have been able to come true had LF not blocked the marriage.

She never focuses on the fact that the Hound held a knife to her throat, only on the kiss and his offer to take her from King's Landing. The more time passes, the gauzier and more romantic her memory gets. By the time of AFFC, her recollection of that incident is "He took a song and a kiss and left me nothing but a bloody cloak." Nothing about his rage, about his use of force, about her terror at the time, about the clear threat of sexual violence; it sounds more like a wistful girl who's been used and abandoned by her lover than a girl who's been assaulted...which is funny, because the Hound seems properly horrified by his actions.

The reason I don't think she focuses on it is because ultimately it did not traumatise her. She came to see the true reason for the Hound's irrational behaviour that night, and maybe in her own way she's already forgiven him. We as readers might think it's terrible, and so might Sandor, but Sansa reaches out to him on the night and feels the tears mixed with his blood, and their interaction ends on an almost peaceful note. By the time of AFFC, Sansa has grown up a lot more, and her interest in Sandor have taken a more romantic turn, but even in the immediateaftermath of the event, she keeps his cloak and wishes he was with her when she is called to visit Margaery. As for what she says, notice her version corresponds with the Hound's as well: she says he took a song and a kiss, which is what the Hound tells Arya: "I took the song, she never gave it."

I think it would be very difficult for Sansa to accept that someone she'd come to trust and view as a protector could do what the Hound did during Blackwater; in ACOK during Blackwater, she doesn't think that the Hound will harm her, and yet that's exactly what he winds up doing, thus the mental backpedaling. She might also have genuine romantic or sexual feelings for the Hound which are gumming up her objectivity and getting her to shape the Hound's actions into something more grandiose, more poetic, more romantic than a drunk guy waving a knife around and coming thisclose to raping her.

Again, I think you're looking to find trauma, surprised that there is none, and then interpreting her later behaviour as signs of repression. The Hound did act violently towards her on the night, and it was wrong, but Sansa is able to see why the Hound acted the way he did. It's very similar to their first conversation in AGOT after the Hand's tourney, when he attempts to scare her with the story of his burns, and she begins to cry, but then ends up feeling afraid for him. Call it incredible empathy, crazy compassion, or what have you, but the evidence shows that Sansa and Sandor have a bond that doesn't correspond to the normal relations we expect between persons. Any other young girl would have run off into the night, probably even reported Sandor to her father, but she doesn't. Instead she's "moist-eyed" during his joust the next day and says that she knew the Hound would win.

I do think there's a serious possibility that if Sansa ever meets the Hound again, she'll be confronted with the reality that his version and her version of Blackwater are very different. I remember the Loras/Sansa situation, when Sansa realizes that she's been attached to an incident which held no meaning for Loras, which he doesn't even remember. Now, the Hound does remember the Blackwater incident, but he likely remembers it less as a romantic parting of lovers and more as the time he assaulted and contemplating raping someone he wanted nothing more than to protect. He seems to regret what he did to Sansa more than anything he's ever done, and the Hound's done a lot of terrible things. I think it would very disillusioning for Sansa--the A-bomb to Loras' grenade--to have to face the truth not only about what didn't happen, but how she's yet again built up another fantasy in her mind.

Who knows what will happen if/when they meet again. I agree that the Hound feels terribly over his actions, but it doesn't mean that his version and Sansa's version will come into some kind of existential conflict where she is shocked that he assaulted her when she thinks he kissed her. I think the unkiss is much more than simply a fantasy Sansa built in her mind. Her feelings for Loras had all of the signs of a childish crush, but there's very little of that with Sandor. What Sansa realised with Loras was that she had projected her own feelings onto a man she barely knew and had allowed her crush on him to give her an inflated sense that she was special. Try applying this to her relationship with Sandor and you'd fail everytime. With Sandor, the kiss is more psychic completion than projection; she is extremely special to Sandor, and she knows him better than anyone else.

My concern, I guess you could say, is that if Sansa never meets the Hound again, she'll continue believing the kiss did in fact happen, since he's the only one who can independently confirm it never took place. Littlefinger's life was blighted, I think, not just by his humiliation at Brandon's hands but also by the lie he told himself about Catelyn losing her virginity to him and what it meant (that Cat loved him and they were only cruelly separated by status). As more time passes, Sansa is thinking of the kiss more and more these days. Will her life be blighted the same way, by obsessing on some romantic figment of her imagination?

I would hardly say that LF's life was blighted by what happened with Cat and Brandon. He was obsessed over a woman who had no feelings for him in that way, and is driven to create as much chaos to prove a point. Sansa's relationship with Sandor couldn't be further away from that. And she doesn't obsess over the kiss either. When she thinks about it in AFFC, the very next thing she states is: that day was over, and so was Sansa.

[Tagganaro]

So, I'm currently rereading ASOS now and I have something to add. It seems to me that when the Hound finally breaks down to Arya, his main motivation is to get Arya to mercy kill him. So I'm not sure how trustworthy every other sentence is. For example, he starts off saying "I hate liars. I hate gutless frauds even worse. Go on, do it". Then after Arya doesn't move, he provokes her by saying he killed Mycah and then laughed about it afterwards. This seems to be a total lie based on what we know.

The rest of the "confession" seems to work in that pattern too. One or 2 sentences of truthful regret followed by a callous, angry lie to provoke Arya. So same thing- I stood there and watched her get beat, I should have stopped. I took the song from her, she didn't give it. Both true- Sansor stood around and watched her get beat and then in the Blackwater Scene he does force Sansa to sing, she does not quite give the song willingly. Then of course comes the total lie that he should have raped her.

Just my own quick analysis of that scene.

As for Sansa, at this point, I think it's safe to assume that she's dealing with some serious trauma as any single person would be. Out of all her "romantic" experiences, the Hound's almost kiss/almost rape is probably the best one - I mean think about it, Joffrey and the strip down in front of the court, the scene during the riot where she's almost gang-raped, the night of her "marriage" to Tyrion where he gropes and eye-rapes her, Marillion's attempted rape, etc. I would think at this point she'd be so traumatized by sex and any related experience, so she's kind of forced to create this Sandor kiss fantasy in order to deal with it, because that Sandor almost kiss is probably the best "sexual" experience she's ever had, which is very, very, very sad and messed up.

To add to another discussion, and it sounds really weird to say this I know, but I actually think LF was the best person for her to interact with post- King's Landing. And it's so weird to say I know because he's a pedophilic sociopath, but he seems to be the ONLY person who has any respect for her intelligence, and that's what she needs to build up. Even the Hound was constantly calling her stupid (out of good reasons I know, but still). From the second she meets LF in his house of sheep dung or whatever he calls it, there's just a different dynamic to Sansa as a character, because he's constantly pushing her to think, and confiding (well, a little at least) his plans in her. It's just sort of weird to pick that up on reread, but it almost makes me like LF a little bit despite the inherent crazy creepiness of it all.

[Newstar]

Then after Arya doesn't move, he provokes her by saying he killed Mycah and then laughed about it afterwards. This seems to be a total lie based on what we know.

Nope, that totally happened:

Bending, Ned pulled back the cloak, dreading the words he would have to find for Arya, but it was not

Nymeria after all. It was the butcher's boy, Mycah, his body covered in dried blood. He had been cut

almost in half from shoulder to waist by some terrible blow struck from above.

"You rode him down," Ned said.

The Hound's eyes seemed to glitter through the steel of that hideous dog's-head helm. "He ran." He

looked at Ned's face and laughed. "But not very fast."

...To be fair, I could have sworn I saw something that stated that GRRM has said something to the effect that he regretted having the Hound laugh about killing Mycah. Still, I don't think the two truths and a lie thing--even though it makes a fun icebreaking game--applies to the Hound's statements. It seems like a lot of gymnastics to get around the idea that the Hound intended to rape Sansa and regrets not doing so, as he considers her ultimate fate worse than death.

The truth is that her thoughts might really have been able to come true had LF not blocked the marriage.

The Tyrells are ascendant as of the end of ADWD, but it seems clear to me that they're going down in a big way. Sansa might have experienced some short-term happiness--goodness knows Sansa could use some--but she would have been taken down with the rest of them had she married Willas. On the other hand, who knows what type of person Willas Tyrell is? All we have is that Willas Tyrell seems to have excellent PR; no one can find a bad thing to say about him. Of course, the same could be said of the beloved Margaery, who cut ties with Sansa and then proceeded to help frame her for murder.

He was obsessed over a woman who had no feelings for him in that way, and is driven to create as much chaos to prove a point

For sure, but the fact that he mentions this--more than once, I think--suggests that the lie he told himself fueled his obsession, both with Cat and with his Cat-substitute.

I agree that the Hound feels terribly over his actions, but it doesn't mean that his version and Sansa's version will come into some kind of existential conflict where she is shocked that he assaulted her when she thinks he kissed her.

I don't think that the shock will be that he didn't kiss her, but that he has a completely different view of what happened. For him it seems to have been his lowest point; he dwells on the fact that the song he was crowing to Arya about was something he had to force from her, and that he meant to rape her. He may also have a different view of their relationship in general. They do have a connection, but so much of what we see is coloured by Sansa's thoughts in her POVs, which are mixed up with her own romanticized notions about things. She may also have romantic and/or sexual feelings for the Hound which are clouding her mind, but that's all what she's projecting on him. That she feels something doesn't mean that he feels the same. Beyond what we see in Sansa's POVs, Arya's POVs don't tell us very much about the Hound's feelings on the matter, beyond his distress at her marriage and his anguished outburst when he's near death, which seems to be as much about his hatred of "that dwarf" as about his regret over Sansa. (If Sansa had married Willas Tyrell and was chillaxing in the Reach and he'd flipped out over hearing that news, that would have made things a lot more clear, but no such luck.) I have no doubt that the Hound told the Elder Brother all about Sansa, since he immediately recognizes her from Brienne's description, but Sansa isn't even alluded to in the Elder Brother's discussion of the Hound's life. So it's up in the air, at least to me.

I think that the death blow to Sansa's romanticized views would be not so much realizing that the kiss never happened but learning that the Hound attaches a very different significance to the event than she does and, by extension, I think, to their relationship. As it is, she seems to have swapped one romantic fantasy (Loras) for another (the Hound). Loras might be the glamorous, elegant pretty boy to the Hound's tortured, brooding, protective bad boy, but it's still a fantasy. Interestingly, the two fantasies seem to be at war with each other in AFFC. She still views Loras as her romantic ideal, but her fantasy about the Hound keeps intruding on her thoughts.

[Lady Lea]

...To be fair, I could have sworn I saw something that stated that GRRM has said something to the effect that he regretted having the Hound laugh about killing Mycah.

That really was unnecessarily cruel... do we ever see the Hound doing anything like this after?

[Dr. Pepper]

Does LF actually think Sansa is intelligent? I never got that impression. The impression I got was that LF wants Sansa to think he thinks she's intelligent so he strokes her ego a bit. He says something like she has "her mothers looks and her father's wits"....I never got the feeling Littlefinger thought Ned was overflowing with wits so that line seemed like a subtle insult.

That really was unnecessarily cruel... do we ever see the Hound doing anything like this after?

Wasn't he manically laughing when he cut down the rioters?

[dark sister]

So, I'm currently rereading ASOS now and I have something to add. It seems to me that when the Hound finally breaks down to Arya, his main motivation is to get Arya to mercy kill him. So I'm not sure how trustworthy every other sentence is. For example, he starts off saying "I hate liars. I hate gutless frauds even worse. Go on, do it". Then after Arya doesn't move, he provokes her by saying he killed Mycah and then laughed about it afterwards. This seems to be a total lie based on what we know.

The rest of the "confession" seems to work in that pattern too. One or 2 sentences of truthful regret followed by a callous, angry lie to provoke Arya. So same thing- I stood there and watched her get beat, I should have stopped. I took the song from her, she didn't give it. Both true- Sansor stood around and watched her get beat and then in the Blackwater Scene he does force Sansa to sing, she does not quite give the song willingly. Then of course comes the total lie that he should have raped her.

Just my own quick analysis of that scene.

As for Sansa, at this point, I think it's safe to assume that she's dealing with some serious trauma as any single person would be. Out of all her "romantic" experiences, the Hound's almost kiss/almost rape is probably the best one - I mean think about it, Joffrey and the strip down in front of the court, the scene during the riot where she's almost gang-raped, the night of her "marriage" to Tyrion where he gropes and eye-rapes her, Marillion's attempted rape, etc. I would think at this point she'd be so traumatized by sex and any related experience, so she's kind of forced to create this Sandor kiss fantasy in order to deal with it, because that Sandor almost kiss is probably the best "sexual" experience she's ever had, which is very, very, very sad and messed up.

I bolded that last line because it reminds me of Queen Elizabeth I's experience with sex. Apparently she was molested by an uncle or something when she was living in Hathouse (I think that's the name) Castle as a teenager. They both have red hair and given that Robb was King in the North, she could be considered a princess, as Elizabeth initially was. Then Elizabeth was labelled a bastard as Henry went through his wives, and now Sansa/Alayne is a bastard. Then Elizabeth was legitimized again, just like Sansa will be. Kind of interesting parallel.

Other than that, though, I don't agree that Sandor was lying. I think it's all too probable that he laughed over Mycah's death (I seem to remember him laughing at the Ned when he describes how he cuts down Mycah). And I think it's even more probable that he was in Sansa's room to rape her. When I started to read the scene for the first time (and second, and third) it seems like he's very close to doing it, but he's just too much of a good guy to go through with it. He seems so guilty for lying to Arya about Sansa singing a song for him willingly (he weeps while admitting it) so I think he is too honest to lie about his other intention. And when he said he wanted to rip her heart out, I think he meant it, because he probably thought that marrying her to Tyrion was incredibly cruel and obscene.

To add to another discussion, and it sounds really weird to say this I know, but I actually think LF was the best person for her to interact with post- King's Landing. And it's so weird to say I know because he's a pedophilic sociopath, but he seems to be the ONLY person who has any respect for her intelligence, and that's what she needs to build up. Even the Hound was constantly calling her stupid (out of good reasons I know, but still). From the second she meets LF in his house of sheep dung or whatever he calls it, there's just a different dynamic to Sansa as a character, because he's constantly pushing her to think, and confiding (well, a little at least) his plans in her. It's just sort of weird to pick that up on reread, but it almost makes me like LF a little bit despite the inherent crazy creepiness of it all.

I very much agree with you here. Everyone, from Joffrey (who is stupid) to Cersei (who isn't nearly as smart as she thinks) says how stupid she is, and she ISN'T, she's just ignorant of the world. I like the way in which Littlefinger teaches her, too, almost in the socratic method. I also like that he calls her clever, because I think she is, but her self-esteem is so low that she rarely thinks good things about herself. I, too, like how he's building up her self-confidence and problem-solving abilities. Maybe now she won't be so hopeless at sums, either ;)

Edit: They both have red hair, not royal hair, although in Liz's case it was royal hair as well, and for Sansa it's not over till the fat man sings :)

[Lady Lea]

Does LF actually think Sansa is intelligent? I never got that impression. The impression I got was that LF wants Sansa to think he thinks she's intelligent so he strokes her ego a bit. He says something like she has "her mothers looks and her father's wits"....I never got the feeling Littlefinger thought Ned was overflowing with wits so that line seemed like a subtle insult.

Doesn't he say this to Alayne though, and not Sansa? "With Cat's looks and my wits". He means his wits. Anyway I think he at least appreciates that she understands his manipulations. Mind you, he certainly doesn't think she's quite as clever as he is.

Wasn't he manically laughing when he cut down the rioters?

I must reread Sandor! I think I may have whitewashed him a bit in my head. He does admit that he loves killing. He is still my favourite tho.

[Dr. Pepper]

Doesn't he say this to Alayne though, and not Sansa? "With Cat's looks and my wits". He means his wits. Anyway I think he at least appreciates that she understands his manipulations. Mind you, he certainly doesn't think she's quite as clever as he is.

That's why I couldn't find the quote. lol. I was looking for "your father's wits". Makes sense.

I still got the feeling that he is stroking her ego. I mean, the whole Lyn Corbrary scheme seemed so obvious that if Sansa pretended not to know what was really going on, it might have signaled to LF that she was purposely trying to deceive him. As it is, it seems as though she has to walk a fine balance between appearing to be somewhat clever but not clever enough and she's proven intelligent enough to figure out that balance.

I must reread Sandor! I think I may have whitewashed him a bit in my head. He does admit that he loves killing. He is still my favourite tho.

I sort of whitewash him, too. I've always had a soft spot for broken people.

[Pod The Impaler]

As for Sansa, at this point, I think it's safe to assume that she's dealing with some serious trauma as any single person would be. Out of all her "romantic" experiences, the Hound's almost kiss/almost rape is probably the best one - I mean think about it, Joffrey and the strip down in front of the court, the scene during the riot where she's almost gang-raped, the night of her "marriage" to Tyrion where he gropes and eye-rapes her, Marillion's attempted rape, etc. I would think at this point she'd be so traumatized by sex and any related experience, so she's kind of forced to create this Sandor kiss fantasy in order to deal with it, because that Sandor almost kiss is probably the best "sexual" experience she's ever had, which is very, very, very sad and messed up.

Well, I think this is at least partially correct. I don't think she imagined it to cover any trauma with him, but he was one of very few in King's Landing who was somewhat gallant with her (protecting her from Joffrey, and others). He was more of a true knight than the other Kingsguard even though he was Joffrey's dog and despised everything about knights. Part of her always wanted a kiss from a true and noble knight, and some part of her imagines he best fits that description. More on this below.

We know he really hated Tyrion, and he probably thought that her marrying him was the worst possible fate for her (as evidenced by his reaction to the news). I think his thought process here is something like "I should have taken her with me. Anything would have been better than leaving her in the hands of that dwarf". The "fuck" part is because he knows the value she had as a maid, and the kill, well that is obvious, he didn't want them to take her alive. Basically he thought it'd be better if she was ruined and killed than if she was forced to marry Tyrion.

It makes more sense if you also think about his regret for letting the guards beat her, like Lyanna pointed out. A man who regrets that, when he also saved her many times, would not be thinking, almost immediately after, of how he should have raped and killed her.

Well, I think this is the crux of it. Because he at least protected her at times, Sansa imagines the Hound as having been gallant. She glosses over what sort of brutal things he'd done and who he worked for. There may even be a bit of empathy or guilt, since she knows why his face is burned and she has too often pre-judged good or evil based on looks (and suffered for it). The reality is less fanciful than her memories - Tyrion was if anything more gallant and less cruel to her than even the Hound, but something about the Hound seems to convince her he was more noble of spirit than in reality.

On the other hand, the Hound himself seems to beat himself up about Sansa, in addition to his guilt about other things he's done. Sansa may see him as gallant for never having actually beaten her, but the Hound apparently remembers the opposite: all he remembers is having stood there like a loyal chump, and watch others hurt and torment a helpless girl - so he feels he was a coward for not having stopped when he could have.

It's a weird dynamic with both of them being a bit off the mark.

(By contrast, Arya especially shows no fear and chastises him. She does not forget or forgive. She almost acts as his long-forgotten conscience haunting him.)

[Lady Lea]

That's why I couldn't find the quote. lol. I was looking for "your father's wits". Makes sense.

I still got the feeling that he is stroking her ego. I mean, the whole Lyn Corbrary scheme seemed so obvious that if Sansa pretended not to know what was really going on, it might have signaled to LF that she was purposely trying to deceive him. As it is, it seems as though she has to walk a fine balance between appearing to be somewhat clever but not clever enough and she's proven intelligent enough to figure out that balance.

I sort of whitewash him, too. I've always had a soft spot for broken people.

Hm, yes, I love the idea of this balance.

Eh, I was looking if anyone had done a Sandor reread here and you guys have done like.. 20? more? threads analysing every little thing he's ever done. Amazing! Mind you, I couldn't find them all... were some of them deleted? Does anyone have links?

Tyrion was if anything more gallant and less cruel to her than even the Hound, but something about the Hound seems to convince her he was more noble of spirit than in reality.

On the other hand, the Hound himself seems to beat himself up about Sansa, in addition to his guilt about other things he's done. Sansa may see him as gallant for never having actually beaten her, but the Hound apparently remembers the opposite: all he remembers is having stood there like a loyal chump, and watch others hurt and torment a helpless girl - so he feels he was a coward for not having stopped when he could have.

Hm I disagree wrt Tyrion. He was never gallant to her. He was her gaoler. He was nice to her once ("I vow I will not savage you") when none of her interests were in his way, but when he saw the profit he ignored his promises to deliver her to her mother, his promises not to harm her, etc, and married her, not even considering her as a person, just a pretty face and a claim. He stops the beatings once, but he knows Joffrey won't do anything to him. He doesn't consummate the marriage, but only at the last minute and because he's shamed by her.

Whereas the Hound, everytime he helps her, it's selflessly and sometimes even at risk for himself, like when he lies to Joffrey for her.

I like what you pointed out about the different perspectives Sansa and Sandor have about the beatings, though.

[bloodymime]

Doesn't he say this to Alayne though, and not Sansa? "With Cat's looks and my wits". He means his wits. Anyway I think he at least appreciates that she understands his manipulations. Mind you, he certainly doesn't think she's quite as clever as he is.

I must reread Sandor! I think I may have whitewashed him a bit in my head. He does admit that he loves killing. He is still my favourite tho.

He does say killing is a joy and the sweetest thing there is but then he also goes on to say “So long as I have this,” he said, lifting the sword from her throat, “there’s no man on earth I need fear.” So I kind of think a lot of that talk is from the helpless little boy having his head shoved into the fire to burn and even his own father covering for Gregor who has all the makings of a good strong knight.

[Tagganaro]

Wow, great find Newstar. I can't believe the Hound would actually laugh over that considering how regretful about Mycah he seems to be in ASOS- Where one of the only times he really loses it and threatens Arya is when she badgers him about Mycah. Very interesting, I could imagine George would regret putting that in there since it's so out of character. Although maybe that's the point, in front of a judgmental honorable knight like Ned Sandor would totally put on an act like that.

@ Darksister- I think that's a brilliant find, comparison with Elizabeth, not to mention the same hair color lol. But yeah, I definitely think Sansa will be a force to be reckoned with at some point in this series politcally-speaking.

As for LF, maybe that was a little misstatement on my part. Because I'm not sure LF really respects anyone or their intelligence. But the point still stands- At least Sansa thinks that LF respects her intelligence, and that gives her much needed confidence. Regardless of whether he does or does not respect her intelligence, he still engages her intellectually, gets her to think about the "game" analytically, and at least makes a token effort to teach and make sure she learns. I think that conversation where he basically calls Cersei a moron is vital- He's basically telling Sansa to analyze people and find out what they want, and from there it's easy because you'll know their weakness. Sansa's beginning to figure this out- First by working on this on Robert, a very easy target, and now she has a bunch of useful information to use courtesy of Myranda Royce. Not to mention that it should be clear what LF wants as well, so she kind of knows his weakness.

[Newstar]

To add to another discussion, and it sounds really weird to say this I know, but I actually think LF was the best person for her to interact with post- King's Landing. And it's so weird to say I know because he's a pedophilic sociopath, but he seems to be the ONLY person who has any respect for her intelligence, and that's what she needs to build up. Even the Hound was constantly calling her stupid (out of good reasons I know, but still). From the second she meets LF in his house of sheep dung or whatever he calls it, there's just a different dynamic to Sansa as a character, because he's constantly pushing her to think, and confiding (well, a little at least) his plans in her. It's just sort of weird to pick that up on reread, but it almost makes me like LF a little bit despite the inherent crazy creepiness of it all.

Dontos praised her intelligence as well. He had his own reasons, of course, but it was nice to read. And yes, pretty much everyone in a position of power in King's Landing wrote Sansa off as a dim bulb...which is what made it so satisfying when she pulled out the rug from under them and escaped.

Doesn't he say this to Alayne though, and not Sansa? "With Cat's looks and my wits". He means his wits. Anyway I think he at least appreciates that she understands his manipulations. Mind you, he certainly doesn't think she's quite as clever as he is.

The creepy thing about the LF/Sansa relationship--beyond all the gross grooming and manipulation--is that he really does seem to want to view her both as a daughter and as a lover. He can't seem to make up his mind. His little speech to Sansa about how he and Cat might have had a daughter like her was designed to manipulate her, but once they actually started the Alayne charade things got really freaking weird really quickly. In some sense, he does seem to want to mould Sansa as the daughter he never had, and he really seems to get a lot of enjoyment out of their daddy/daughter roleplay. Squiring her around, introducing her as his daughter, asking her to be Alayne all the time, tutoring her, etc. On the other hand, his sexual interest in Sansa keeps surfacing, and he's being increasingly unfatherly and loverly in his affections: extracting long kisses from her, kissing her wrist, etc. But while there's an element of conscious manipulation--getting affection from Sansa through making claims as her "father" on her kisses, etc.--for sure, I think he's genuinely conflicted as to what he wants from Sansa. A man without any family or real romantic bonds, who's held himself apart from others for a long time, has managed to trap the object of his desire in a forced relationship of some intimacy. The kicker is that that relationship is of a very different character than the one he hopes to have with her ultimately, but he enjoys it as well, so he's torn...thus the weirdness. The snow castle episode is a great example. It starts off as innocuous father/daughter fun--Sansa pelting LF with snowballs, LF helping Sansa build the castle--but then LF starts injecting all sorts of grossness into the affair (asking if he can come into her castle, ew) and then winds up kissing her. That confusion and weirdness might create an opportunity for Sansa to exploit.

As for the LF/Sansa' intelligence issue...I think LF wants a Watson to his Holmes, basically: someone who's nowhere near as clever as he is, but who's clever enough to understand and appreciate just how clever he is. The saddest thing in the world is a supervillain who has no one to appreciate his evil genius. Even now, Tyrion has no clue as to LF's role in things, beyond LF's lie about the dagger. And LF's problem is that he's a victim of his own success at the game of thrones and he's too good; no one's smart enough to twig to what he's doing, so no one can appreciate how good he really is at this stuff...except Sansa, whom he's schooling not so much in the game of thrones but in the knowledge of just how awesome and brilliant he is.

The hilarious thing about LF is that he tells her in his preening, smug way both 1) the humblest pieces (players?) have minds of their own and make unexpected moves and 2) if you know what a man wants, you know how to move him. These seem to be predicting exactly what Sansa will do to him: making unexpected moves of her own, and turning his affection for her against him.

Speaking of fathers, and knowing GRRM likes to do things in threes, it occurred to me that Sansa has been responsible (albeit indirectly and unknowingly) for the deaths of two of her fathers. There's her actual father (Ned), and GRRM has indicated that he believes that Sansa should share some of the responsibility for the thwarted escape from King's Landing and everything that ensued by going to Cersei (which...whatever, GRRM, she was all of 11 at the time). There's Joffrey, who tells Sansa before she marries Tyrion that Joffrey was her father now. So LF is her third "father," so I suspect she'll be responsible for his death as well (although she'll likely play more of a direct role this time around). She also saw her previous two fathers die. I'm guessing she'll watch LF die as well.

[brashcandy]

The Tyrells are ascendant as of the end of ADWD, but it seems clear to me that they're going down in a big way. Sansa might have experienced some short-term happiness--goodness knows Sansa could use some--but she would have been taken down with the rest of them had she married Willas. On the other hand, who knows what type of person Willas Tyrell is? All we have is that Willas Tyrell seems to have excellent PR; no one can find a bad thing to say about him. Of course, the same could be said of the beloved Margaery, who cut ties with Sansa and then proceeded to help frame her for murder.

Had she married Willas she might be safely ensconced in Highgarden helping him to raise puppies. The shit is going to hit the fan for everyone, not just the Tyrells, but as you noted, Sansa might have been afforded some peace and security for a short time at least.

For sure, but the fact that he mentions this--more than once, I think--suggests that the lie he told himself fueled his obsession, both with Cat and with his Cat-substitute.

I'm sorry, but comparing LF's and Sansa's "fantasies" just seems bizarre to me. LF had little to go on to base his obsession of Cat, indulges in subsequent sexual relations with her sister, all the while seemingly scheming to exact revenge on those who thought he wasn't good enough. He displays a warped personality, an almost complete lack of morality, and appears unable to experience genuine emotions or feelings. A fantasy borne from LF's mind is most definitely not going to be comparable to one that emerges from Sansa's.

I don't think that the shock will be that he didn't kiss her, but that he has a completely different view of what happened. For him it seems to have been his lowest point; he dwells on the fact that the song he was crowing to Arya about was something he had to force from her, and that he meant to rape her. He may also have a different view of their relationship in general. They do have a connection, but so much of what we see is coloured by Sansa's thoughts in her POVs, which are mixed up with her own romanticized notions about things. She may also have romantic and/or sexual feelings for the Hound which are clouding her mind, but that's all what she's projecting on him. That she feels something doesn't mean that he feels the same.

I'd bet my last dollar he feels the same. In fact I argue that his feelings for her are very nearly fully developed and that's why they are so overwhelming. Sansa really showed no signs of having any romanticised feelings for Sandor until ASOS. Up until that point, Sandor is still trying to get her to look at him, threatening her with phallic objects, commenting on her developing body and telling her he'll have a song from her one day. Add to this his coming on the night of the BB and pledging his life and service to her, and it's blindingly obvious that the man has feelings for her. He doesn't articulate them very well and he's often drunk and belligerent, but we can still glimpse them. I keep having to say this, but Sansa did not pull fantasies or dreams of Sandor out of thin air.

Also when does he ever say he meant to rape her?

Beyond what we see in Sansa's POVs, Arya's POVs don't tell us very much about the Hound's feelings on the matter, beyond his distress at her marriage and his anguished outburst when he's near death, which seems to be as much about his hatred of "that dwarf" as about his regret over Sansa.

What more needs to happen outside of a nervous breakdown and deathbed sobbing to convince you of his feelings? His hatred of Tyrion may have preceded Sansa, but in this scene he's definitely incensed because Tyrion married her and he knows it would have been against her will.

(If Sansa had married Willas Tyrell and was chillaxing in the Reach and he'd flipped out over hearing that news, that would have made things a lot more clear, but no such luck.)

I think it would have pained him, but his devastation might have less for sure. Sandor's romantic feelings for Sansa were never obsessive. He could let her go and be happy knowing she was happy. That's the ultimate test of love anyways. Sansa's protection and her happiness have always meant more to him, I believe, than a consideration of her with another man.

I have no doubt that the Hound told the Elder Brother all about Sansa, since he immediately recognizes her from Brienne's description, but Sansa isn't even alluded to in the Elder Brother's discussion of the Hound's life. So it's up in the air, at least to me.

The EB chooses to tell Brienne about the Hound's torments, not the things that brought Sandor some measure of hope or happiness. I don't think anything can be read into that.

I think that the death blow to Sansa's romanticized views would be not so much realizing that the kiss never happened but learning that the Hound attaches a very different significance to the event than she does and, by extension, I think, to their relationship.

Sandor is the one who pulled her closer on the night. What was he pulling her closer for? Now, I'm not saying he was most definitely looking for a kiss, but it is a fairly logical conclusion to come to, especially given how badly he freaks out afterwards when she closes her eyes. Even if he had no kiss in mind, he wanted closer contact, more intimacy, and that suggests feelings of a romantic nature.

As it is, she seems to have swapped one romantic fantasy (Loras) for another (the Hound). Loras might be the glamorous, elegant pretty boy to the Hound's tortured, brooding, protective bad boy, but it's still a fantasy. Interestingly, the two fantasies seem to be at war with each other in AFFC. She still views Loras as her romantic ideal, but her fantasy about the Hound keeps intruding on her thoughts.

No, no, this is simply incorrect. Her thoughts about Loras and Sandor are completely different. She hasn't even been able yet to truly vocalise in explicit terms what she feels for Sandor. And I didn't see the two fantasies being at war at all. By the time of AFFC Sansa is fully aware that her Loras crush is useless, and isn't invested in it any longer. She doesn't deliberately think of Sandor, but finds that this is where her mind naturally goes. Loras isn't even on the playing field anymore, much less involved in a battle.