From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa V

[brashcandy]

Very interesting angle on Arya, though I will be sorely disappointed if Needle does prove useless in the future. I can't think of anything analagous that Sansa has been holding onto for that long. The only thing that comes close is...well, I imagine you know what. She's still got a certain cloak, right?

Yes, this is pretty much the only thing we know she's hiding, and which LF has no idea about. It's interesting that all of Sansa's "secrets" revolve around Sandor. She keeps his cloak, she knows the secret of his burned face and why he deserted during the BB; she's keeping the secret of their shared kiss (forget that it didn't happen) and her attraction to him. It does, I think, symbolise both the "inappropriateness" of the relationship, in that it's not something society would sanction, and also the power of their connection. In this way then, there's always already going to be part of her that can't fully claim Alayne Stone and that seems to be connected to her relationship with Sandor. If he is indeed her wolf replacement, then he's become a part of her too and that link will persist through time and space.

As for my earlier point about going back and finding items linked to our identity that have become tarnished, impossible to reclaim, if we were to apply this to the bloody cloak (and Sandor Clegane)- they've already been tarnished and sullied. Sansa isn't keeping a spotless white cloak in her possessions and the owner of that cloak was a profoundly flawed man, who has since faced even more negative accusations. She's faced these realities already, and so the reverse process might be evident instead. She'd be returning to find a man who's gone through much needed healing and who is at peace with himself.

[Elba the Intoner]

As for my earlier point about going back and finding items linked to our identity that have become tarnished, impossible to reclaim, if we were to apply this to the bloody cloak (and Sandor Clegane)- they've already been tarnished and sullied. Sansa isn't keeping a spotless white cloak in her possessions and the owner of that cloak was a profoundly flawed man, who has since faced even more negative accusations. She's faced these realities already, and so the reverse process might be evident instead. She'd be returning to find a man who's gone through much needed healing and who is at peace with himself.

Yes, I hope so too. Given the discussion of Sandor as a broken man and his being on the Quiet Isle which is heavily associated with reforming broken men, that has to be leading somewhere. Why give all these hints that Sandor is on the QI if we are not going to see him again and see him interact with Sansa again. When they do, I think Sandor will be a much tamer version of himself. Also, there's the prayer that Sansa says for him in the Sept before the BBW starts where she asks for his rage to be tamed, or quieted if you will, and it seems that much of Sansa's (and Arya's) prayers are coming true.

[Kittykatknits]

Yes, this is pretty much the only thing we know she's hiding, and which LF has no idea about. It's interesting that all of Sansa's "secrets" revolve around Sandor. She keeps his cloak, she knows the secret of his burned face and why he deserted during the BB; she's keeping the secret of their shared kiss (forget that it didn't happen) and her attraction to him. It does, I think, symbolise both the "inappropriateness" of the relationship, in that it's not something society would sanction, and also the power of their connection. In this way then, there's always already going to be part of her that can't fully claim Alayne Stone and that seems to be connected to her relationship with Sandor. If he is indeed her wolf replacement, then he's become a part of her too and that link will persist through time and space.

As for my earlier point about going back and finding items linked to our identity that have become tarnished, impossible to reclaim, if we were to apply this to the bloody cloak (and Sandor Clegane)- they've already been tarnished and sullied. Sansa isn't keeping a spotless white cloak in her possessions and the owner of that cloak was a profoundly flawed man, who has since faced even more negative accusations. She's faced these realities already, and so the reverse process might be evident instead. She'd be returning to find a man who's gone through much needed healing and who is at peace with himself.

Yes, I hope so too. Given the discussion of Sandor as a broken man and his being on the Quiet Isle which is heavily associated with reforming broken men, that has to be leading somewhere. Why give all these hints that Sandor is on the QI if we are not going to see him again and see him interact with Sansa again. When they do, I think Sandor will be a much tamer version of himself. Also, there's the prayer that Sansa says for him in the Sept before the BBW starts where she asks for his rage to be tamed, or quieted if you will, and it seems that much of Sansa's (and Arya's) prayers are coming true.

I have a suspicion that Sansa has already hinted at what kind of man Sandor will be after his time on the QI. She prayed for his rage to be gentled and we know her prayers tend to come true. But, she also admires his ferocity and, at one point, wishes Dontos had more of it. So, I think it is safe to say his rage will be gentled but his ferocity will remain. That is a Sandor I'm looking forward to meeting!

[bloodymime]

I have a suspicion that Sansa has already hinted at what kind of man Sandor will be after his time on the QI. She prayed for his rage to be gentled and we know her prayers tend to come true. But, she also admires his ferocity and, at one point, wishes Dontos had more of it. So, I think it is safe to say his rage will be gentled but his ferocity will remain. That is a Sandor I'm looking forward to meeting!

I think it's a good hint the way he's flinging dirt while digging those graves that there's still some fire there.

[Lyanna Stark]

I think it's a good hint the way he's flinging dirt while digging those graves that there's still some fire there.

At the same time, he's now been reduced to serving tables, which he does without complaining so there's definitely some...tempering? :)

Regarding the Kettleblacks, we have:

• Ser OsMund of the Kingsguard, who Cersei slept with. Also, testified against Tyrion at his trial and it was completely made up (LF plotting?)
  
• Ser OsFryd was the Commander of the City Watch, removes as of ADWD (this seems like a dangerous position since everyone either quits, dies or gets sent to the Wall?). The "cruellest" of the three says Cersei, I think? Did not sleep with Cersei but she confesses to this anyway.
  
• Ser OsNey was meant to seduce Margaery Tyrell and spilled the beans to the Faith. Also slept with Cersei.
  

• The dad, OsWell Kettleblack
  

Not sure if Sansa commented on all of them or mainly on Osmund? Jaime seems to not rate Osmund much at least.

[Kittykatknits]

I think it's a good hint the way he's flinging dirt while digging those graves that there's still some fire there.

I'd also add what we learn about Stranger too.

[Lyanna Stark]

I'd also add what we learn about Stranger too.

Who's currently called "Driftwood" though. :) So I wonder if Sandor is going to get a similar name change from "The Hound" into some other moniker?

I don't know, if he's going to remain hooded like a monk, he'll look a bit like the Stranger himself (I always wondered if Cersei's line about Sansa wasn't meant to mean something, since it stood out at me even the first time through AFFC: "When I am done with her she will be begging the Stranger for his kiss"). Unfortunately that reminds me a bit of the

in good old Diablo which is not a good portent! :)

On the other hand if he's reformed (so to speak) then he should ideally have a nicer name and not something sinister!

[Tagganaro]

Lyanna, when did Cersei sleep with Osmund, the one from the KG? In order to get the false testimony against Tyrion? I don't even remember that.

[Lyanna Stark]

Lyanna, when did Cersei sleep with Osmund, the one from the KG? In order to get the false testimony against Tyrion? I don't even remember that.

I believe Varys tells Tyrion this in ASOS, or at least Tyrion tells Jaime that Cersei slept with Osmund. I know Moonboy was an addition, but I believe she did sleep with Osmund at some point. Can't for the life of me find where though. She doesn't sleep with Osney until AFFC though and there's no indication of her sleeping with Osmund in AFFC, just the younger Kettleblack.

Although it is confusing that she confesses to sleeping with all three of them.

[A wilding]

It is uncertain whether she actually did sleep with Osmund. The most likely time is perhaps after Tommen's wedding when, somewhat drunk, she stays to watch the Tower of the Hand burn with Osmund while everyone else goes off to the bedding. She was clearly on a bit of a high at the time.

[Lyanna Stark]

It is uncertain whether she actually did sleep with Osmund. The most likely time is perhaps after Tommen's wedding when, somewhat drunk, she stays to watch the Tower of the Hand burn with Osmund while everyone else goes off to the bedding. She was clearly on a bit of a high at the time.

Yes, I thought so too at first, yet Tyrion brings it up in ASOS and Sansa notices the Kettleblacks in ACOK already when she doesn't believe they are better than the Hound, and I believe Osmund replaced Boros Blount in ASOS already. Jaime didn't resurface until after Joffrey's death either, so the probable time span is from end ACOK til end ASOS, or after Jaime left again when Cersei burns the Tower of the Hand.

[Tagganaro]

Yeah, I seem to recall Varys telling Tyrion about Cersei flirting with Osmund and making "ribald Jests" or something like that haha, but not any evidence that they actually slept together.

[Knight]

First of all, one of the reasons why I signed up to the forums is because of the great thoughts and analyses given in the Sansa threads - it has helped me a great deal to understand Sansa as a character. I appreciate her more, and it has increased my pleasure of reading and re-reading her chapters in the books.

I would like to draw the attention to a intriguing quote from one of books (GOT, I believe) where Sandor says the following to Sansa:

'A hound will die for you, but never lie to you.'

I fear that this may be a quote that foreshadows that, on some day, Sandor will be sacrificing himself for Sansa. This is interesting with regard to LF, who is believed to be the greatest danger for Sansa's integrity. If the Hound would die for Sansa, would this have to do something with him opposing and/or killing LF?

Sorry for all the Sansan shippers out there who may find this post a bit depressing - Next time, I will make sure to post something you all can swoon over concerning Sansan. The future is not set in stone, after all :)

Edit: my apologies if this post is not entirely appriopriate for this thread - I have posted this because I think that Sandor's fate is tied to Sansa's development as a character. Therefore, I thought it worthwhile to discuss it.

[Kittykatknits]

Who's currently called "Driftwood" though. :) So I wonder if Sandor is going to get a similar name change from "The Hound" into some other moniker?

I don't know, if he's going to remain hooded like a monk, he'll look a bit like the Stranger himself (I always wondered if Cersei's line about Sansa wasn't meant to mean something, since it stood out at me even the first time through AFFC: "When I am done with her she will be begging the Stranger for his kiss"). Unfortunately that reminds me a bit of the

in good old Diablo which is not a good portent! :)

On the other hand if he's reformed (so to speak) then he should ideally have a nicer name and not something sinister!

Well, having devoted more hours of my life to the Diablo franchise, I knew exactly who the Dark Wanderer was. Oh, I don't want Sandor to be anything like him, that would be a very bad thing indeed. As an aside, I was glad when Deckard Cain died, in Diablo 3, I used to find that guy so annoying.

I saw the name "Driftwood" as another attempt by the brothers to tame Sandor and the horse. But, it does say quite a bit that Sandor is OK with both renaming the horse and trying to tame him. That does make me a bit nervous. I can't imagine a better name than "The Hound" though. Actually, I think I'd just prefer him to use his name, reclaim that, rather than adopt another moniker.

My pet theory is that Cersei will win her trial and then somehow learn that Sansa is alive and where she is. Then, she'll send Robert Strong after her. At this point, Sandor will slay him and save Sansa. Hence the kiss. I'm pretty sure it won't happen but I like the theory nonetheless.

Yes, I thought so too at first, yet Tyrion brings it up in ASOS and Sansa notices the Kettleblacks in ACOK already when she doesn't believe they are better than the Hound, and I believe Osmund replaced Boros Blount in ASOS already. Jaime didn't resurface until after Joffrey's death either, so the probable time span is from end ACOK til end ASOS, or after Jaime left again when Cersei burns the Tower of the Hand.

It is uncertain whether she actually did sleep with Osmund. The most likely time is perhaps after Tommen's wedding when, somewhat drunk, she stays to watch the Tower of the Hand burn with Osmund while everyone else goes off to the bedding. She was clearly on a bit of a high at the time.

I can't keep anything straight with the KBs no matter how hard I try. IIRC, she has one of the KBs murder a HS, one sent to the wall to murder Jon, and one to frame Margaery. Maybe Osmund is the one she had kill a HS, this would have been back in Storm, right? Or am I completely making this up? But, I'm pretty sure that Tyrion learns about it from Varys. These guys are so confusing.

[brashcandy]

First of all, one of the reasons why I signed up to the forums is because of the great thoughts and analyses given in the Sansa threads - it has helped me a great deal to understand Sansa as a character. I appreciate her more, and it has increased my pleasure of reading and re-reading her chapters in the books.

I would like to draw the attention to a intriguing quote from one of books (GOT, I believe) where Sandor says the following to Sansa:

'A hound will die for you, but never lie to you.'

I fear that this may be a quote that foreshadows that, on some day, Sandor will be sacrificing himself for Sansa. This is interesting with regard to LF, who is believed to be the greatest danger for Sansa's integrity. If the Hound would die for Sansa, would this have to do something with him opposing and/or killing LF?

Sorry for all the Sansan shippers out there who may find this post a bit depressing - Next time, I will make sure to post something you all can swoon over concerning Sansan. The future is not set in stone, after all :)

Edit: my apologies if this post is not entirely appriopriate for this thread - I have posted this because I think that Sandor's fate is tied to Sansa's development as a character. Therefore, I thought it worthwhile to discuss it.

Welcome, Knight! I'm glad you've found the threads to be enlightening :)

That statement by Sandor certainly sounds ominous, but I've always felt that the use of the word "Hound" is important. After the EB's speech to Brienne about what a haunted man the Hound was and how he's now dead, whilst Sandor is "at rest", I'd argue that the Hound did die for Sansa already. She was the catalyst for his transformation on the night of the Blackwater, and on his death bed confession to Arya she's all he can speak of. So, all that remains is Sandor. And he's definitely still useful to Sansa - as a potential love interest and for his fighting prowess and/or info concerning LF.

And don't worry about the Sansan shippers. We keep that impulse pretty restrained around these parts. Feel free to discuss and explore whatever you like related to Sansa!

[Lyanna Stark]

First of all, one of the reasons why I signed up to the forums is because of the great thoughts and analyses given in the Sansa threads - it has helped me a great deal to understand Sansa as a character. I appreciate her more, and it has increased my pleasure of reading and re-reading her chapters in the books.

I would like to draw the attention to a intriguing quote from one of books (GOT, I believe) where Sandor says the following to Sansa:

'A hound will die for you, but never lie to you.'

I fear that this may be a quote that foreshadows that, on some day, Sandor will be sacrificing himself for Sansa. This is interesting with regard to LF, who is believed to be the greatest danger for Sansa's integrity. If the Hound would die for Sansa, would this have to do something with him opposing and/or killing LF?

Welcome Knight. :)

It may indeed be that Sandor is going to sacrifice himself for Sansa at some point. Then there's also the fact that the Hound has already metaphorically "died" on the Trident, so it's still quite up in the air.

Personally I think it would be really mean to Sansa to first lose her wolf and then her replacement, too! :)

Well, having devoted more hours of my life to the Diablo franchise, I knew exactly who the Dark Wanderer was. Oh, I don't want Sandor to be anything like him, that would be a very bad thing indeed. As an aside, I was glad when Deckard Cain died, in Diablo 3, I used to find that guy so annoying.

LOL @ Deckard Cain. I have spoiled myself with the D3 cinematics, and Tyrael <3 Always had a weird crush on him despite him being only wings and armour, really. :lol: It would be bad indeed if Sandor turned into the Wanderer, but I always found the imagery around the Wanderer very compelling, whether it's when he fakes the angel wings or turns into rats.

I saw the name "Driftwood" as another attempt by the brothers to tame Sandor and the horse. But, it does say quite a bit that Sandor is OK with both renaming the horse and trying to tame him. That does make me a bit nervous. I can't imagine a better name than "The Hound" though. Actually, I think I'd just prefer him to use his name, reclaim that, rather than adopt another moniker.

Yes, it does make you wonder. Stranger is put away in the back of the stable though, and even though he is "restrained" he' still definitely his old self. It make you wonder about Sandor though since she's obviously ok with doing simple tasks like digging graves and serving tables, which I can't imagine him ever agreeing to before.

I can't keep anything straight with the KBs no matter how hard I try. IIRC, she has one of the KBs murder a HS, one sent to the wall to murder Jon, and one to frame Margaery. Maybe Osmund is the one she had kill a HS, this would have been back in Storm, right? Or am I completely making this up? But, I'm pretty sure that Tyrion learns about it from Varys. These guys are so confusing.

Osney was sent to murder the High Septon I believe, and then sent to the High Sparrow to "confess" after which he was supposed to go to the Wall. Cersei seems to have rewarded him with a shag both times, one of which was the famous "You can keep the crown on". :stillsick:

They are really confusing though, and I often get their time lines muddled since I think Sansa comments on Osmund already in ACOK as a replacement for Sandor at Joffrey's side, but they really are interchangeable. Sometimes I wonder if Cersei got confused too and just confessed to shagging all of them since she could not tell them apart. :uhoh:

EDIT: Aaah this makes me want to cave in an buy D3 so badly.

[Kittykatknits]

First of all, one of the reasons why I signed up to the forums is because of the great thoughts and analyses given in the Sansa threads - it has helped me a great deal to understand Sansa as a character. I appreciate her more, and it has increased my pleasure of reading and re-reading her chapters in the books.

I would like to draw the attention to a intriguing quote from one of books (GOT, I believe) where Sandor says the following to Sansa:

'A hound will die for you, but never lie to you.'

I fear that this may be a quote that foreshadows that, on some day, Sandor will be sacrificing himself for Sansa. This is interesting with regard to LF, who is believed to be the greatest danger for Sansa's integrity. If the Hound would die for Sansa, would this have to do something with him opposing and/or killing LF?

Sorry for all the Sansan shippers out there who may find this post a bit depressing - Next time, I will make sure to post something you all can swoon over concerning Sansan. The future is not set in stone, after all :)

Edit: my apologies if this post is not entirely appriopriate for this thread - I have posted this because I think that Sandor's fate is tied to Sansa's development as a character. Therefore, I thought it worthwhile to discuss it.

Hi Knight and welcome to the boards.

Sandor says this to her during their conversation on the serpentine steps in Clash. I agree with brashcandy, she wished for his rage to be gentled and that's what happens. His rage is one of the major elements that make up the Hound persona. I think the other part of what he said to her, never lying, is important as well. It's my personal theory that he will one day help Sansa remember who she is, that he is her connection to her Stark identiy.

I don't think Sandor will kill LF, I hope that Sansa is the one ultimately responsible for taking LF down, however that happens. But I could see him supporting her in that in some way. Having said all this, I still think it is possible that he will one day die for Sansa, a prospect that pains me greatly.

We talk about Sandor a fair amount in this thread, he is such a large part of Sansa as a character that it would be impossible not to talk about him. But, as for the shipping part, there are other places we go for that. :)

[brashcandy]

Interestingly here, Mya Stone advocates for women to be independent (a modern thought) while one of the reasons Randa seems to want to get married again is to have someone to have sex with. Both behaviours are far off the lady ideal of Westeros I'd say and very modern thoughts. It does seem like the next logical step for Sansa after having been shown how false her view of marriage and a woman's function in society were that she now gets introduced to some more radical thinking. In ACOK, she could not really take in what Cersei said about being sold off to some stranger and ridden like a horse, but now she can. After all the horrible experiences she's had already, she's more ready to accept different lines of thinking and to be less judgemental about non traditional solutions to problems, I imagine.

Yes, both of them are very far from the ladylike ideal :) I remember kittykatknits saying in a previous post about Sansa's virginity being a plot point, and I agree that it is, but how does Sansa the character feel about her maidenhead? I don't think she ruminates it on it much, outside of thinking that it wouldn't have been bad to be undressed for a man she loved with genuine friends and family.

It makes it even more fascinating that all this is flying completely under Littlefinger's radar. He thinks Sansa is Cat 2.0, including the dutifulness, but I think there Sansa has already distanced herself from what her mother was like. She's recognised that in her current situation that will get her nowhere except into another marriage farce. Interestingly, during AGOT, ACOK and up to the wedding with Tyrion, "dutiful" and reminders to herself to be courteous come up constantly, but after that we see far less of it, and in AFFC nothing.

That's a really good point, Lyanna. I think this is why LF is so anxious to make sure that she's Alayne Stone in her heart, because really, as Sansa Stark, she has no one to answer to but herself. Sansa draws strength from Cat's memory, but she's never been her mother's daughter in not questioning the word of the patriarch.

[Knight]

Welcome, Knight! I'm glad you've found the threads to be enlightening :)

That statement by Sandor certainly sounds ominous, but I've always felt that the use of the word "Hound" is important. After the EB's speech to Brienne about what a haunted man the Hound was and how he's now dead, whilst Sandor is "at rest", I'd argue that the Hound did die for Sansa already. She was the catalyst for his transformation on the night of the Blackwater, and on his death bed confession to Arya she's all he can speak of. So, all that remains is Sandor. And he's definitely still useful to Sansa - as a potential love interest and for his fighting prowess and/or info concerning LF.

And don't worry about the Sansan shippers. We keep that impulse pretty restrained around these parts. Feel free to discuss and explore whatever you like related to Sansa!

Thanks brashcandy! I do wonder what it would mean for Sandor's brutal honesty if it would be an inherent part of the Hound persona - his honesty has been of great value for Sansa's development. What if this would die with the Hound persona altogether? The quote 'A hound will die for you, but will never to you' sounds as if the Hound is honest, whereas Sandor may possess an altered version of this honesty after his return from the QI.

Anyway, I was quite convinced that he would actually die for her, but I am glad that your version depicts another course of events which I very much hope is more likely to happen.

Welcome Knight. :)

It may indeed be that Sandor is going to sacrifice himself for Sansa at some point. Then there's also the fact that the Hound has already metaphorically "died" on the Trident, so it's still quite up in the air.

Personally I think it would be really mean to Sansa to first lose her wolf and then her replacement, too! :)

Haha, I agree that that would be awfully mean to do. Although I think most readers cannot accuse GRRM of being kind for his characters anyway.

Edit: spelling.

[brashcandy]

Thanks brashcandy! I do wonder what it would mean for Sandor's brutal honesty if it would be an inherent part of the Hound persona - his honesty has been of great value for Sansa's development. What if this would die with the Hound persona altogether. The quote 'A hound will die for you, but will never to you.' sounds as if the Hound is honest, whereas Sandor may possess an altered version of this honesty after his return from the QI.

Well we know that honesty is an integral part of Sandor's character, not just a facet of the Hound's. Kittykat was right when she said that the major problems with the Hound were his emotional and rage issues. His confession to the Elder Brother must have been fairly honest as well, since the EB knows he was with Arya Stark and all about his hatred for his brother. Even when Sandor tries to tell a small white lie, as he did by telling Arya Sansa gave him a song, the weight of his conscience eventually crushes him and he tells the truth.