Aegon is Legitimate: It's Obvious, Right? (Long OP)

[TheMysteriousOne]

True, but that'd make them more Targaryen-esque in appearance, not less.

Yeah, but since the majority of Blackfyres went to Essos they could have married people of non-Valyrian descent and that would have changed the genes

[Dragonfish]

Yeah, but since the majority of Blackfyres went to Essos they could have married people of non-Valyrian descent and that would have changed the genes

Sure, some of them probably did, but some of them may also have continued the practice of incest.

[Bravely Done]

Huh? Valarr and Matarys were Baelor's sons, and Baelor was Daeron II's heir. As such, they were the grandson's of the king, and were in the line of succession. In fact, after Baelor died, but before Valarr did, Valarr was next in line to be king once Daeron II died.

I concede the point, though questions of Valarr and Matarys heritage still exit. We don't know who their mother was, and if she isn't Targaryen, which seems to be the case, that could certainly contribute to their unique physical characteristics, no? Moreover, Baelor Breakspear wasn't a full Targaryen. His mother was a Martell, he was half Dornish, explaining his black hair.

Uh...genetics? If Targaryen genes give one silver hair and purple eyes, then Daeron's sandy-blond hair must be due to non-Targ genes.

No, this is you creating your own story in order to advance your agenda. Martin's world is one of magic and fantasy, real world genetics need not apply. "Genetically", silver haired people with purple eyes don't exit. It isn't "genetically" possible for an 8ft man to to come to being, let alone move as swiftly and as limber as the Mountain that Rides. If this story were based on real world genetics, The Targaryen's incest would have been their undoing long before Robert's hammer.

What distinction is this? Are you saying it doesn't matter because he didn't contribute to the modern Targ line?

Again, feigning ignorance.

Bittersteel was bastard of Aegon IV and Barbra Brackens, explaining his black hair. And again, he was never a part of the royal line.

It's not baseless. The Kingsguard being at the ToJ is a big hint toward this.

Is there evidence that suggest the Kings Guard has the authority to wed?

I suggest you spend a little time in the R+L=J thread and bone up a little on the arguments before going any further with this.

I'd suggest you start supporting your arguments with evidence, if you want them to be taken seriously.

All we know is that Whent, Hightower, and Dayne were ordered by Rhaegar to protect Lyanna Stark. That is it, that is all. Presumably, she was birthing a child, whom Rhaegar believed would grow to fulfill a prophecy.

None of that suggest marriage, however, nor does anything else in the novels.

Well, the male line only died about a generation ago, so whatever non-Targs contributed to the Blackfyre line didn't do so far very many generations.

No, that's two generations by the time Aegon Mopatis would be birthed. Small chance he comes out looking exactly like a Targaryen of the royal line.

I'll admit that Daemon Blackfyre's sons didn't have a choice, since they don't appear to have had any sisters. But their children may have had a choice, if they did have sisters.

The child of Deamon Blackfyre's children was Maelys the Monstrous. And that is where the male line ended. There are no known female Blackfyre's.

As I said, you make up your own story with no evidence whatsoever to support it, simply to advance your agenda.

Right, and that precedent shows that children may end up looking like a Targ or a Martell.

His children looked like both. Aegon, a Targaryen, and Rhaenys, a Martell.

[Dragonfish]

No, this is you creating your own story in order to advance your agenda. Martin's world is one of magic and fantasy, real world genetics need not apply. "Genetically", silver haired people with purple eyes don't exit. It isn't "genetically" possible for an 8ft man to to come to being, let alone move as swiftly and as limber as the Mountain that Rides. If this story were based on real world genetics, The Targaryen's incest would have been their undoing long before Robert's hammer.

Genetics are certainly not exactly like real world genetics, but there's nothing to suggest that people's appearance does not come from the genes of their parents or their ancestors. If this were the case, then Cersei's children being blond would not have been evidence that her children weren't Robert's.

Again, feigning ignorance.

I'm not feigning ignorance, I honestly have no idea what the hell your point is, because you are terrible at articulating it.

Bittersteel was bastard of Aegon IV and Barbra Brackens, explaining his black hair. And again, he was never a part of the royal line.

Ok, but that doesn't change my point. My point is that children of non-Targ parents can grow up to look like non-Targs.

Is there evidence that suggest the Kings Guard has the authority to wed?

No, the theory is not based on the Kingsguard having wed them. It's based on the fact that they remained at the tower even after Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon were dead. At that point, their new king was supposedly Viserys, yet despite the fact that he was in danger and without Kingsguard protection, the only remaining Kingsguard who were loyal to him chose to remain at the tower. This suggests that the true king was with them, and that that was the reason they chose to stay.

I'd suggest you start supporting your arguments with evidence, if you want them to be taken seriously.

My arguments are taken seriously, by plenty of other posters. I have argued this point countless times on this board, and have been backed up by many other posters. Go read the R+L=J thread, and this will become clear.

All we know is that Whent, Hightower, and Dayne were ordered by Rhaegar to protect Lyanna Stark. That is it, that is all. Presumably, she was birthing a child, whom Rhaegar believed would grow to fulfill a prophecy.

None of that suggest marriage, however, nor does anything else in the novels.

Again, go read the R+L=J threads. Your points here have been addressed multiple times there.

The child of Deamon Blackfyre's children was Maelys the Monstrous. And that is where the male line ended. There are no known female Blackfyre's.

As I said, you make up your own story with no evidence whatsoever to support it, simply to advance your agenda.

No, we don't know who Maelys's father was. In fact, given that he was the last Blackfyre to trouble the Targs, and given that Catelyn says the Blackfyres troubled the Targaryens for five generations, we can assume that Maelys was a fifth generation Blackfyre.

Who's making up their own story, now?

His children looked like both. Aegon, a Targaryen, and Rhaenys, a Martell.

Yes, I know. My point is that Varys and Illyrio could not have known that Aegon's appearance would not have changed over time.

[Ser Loudmouth]

They aren't easy to predict. Baelor Breakspear favored his Dornish mother, while his children had a mixture of looks from both their Targ father and Dornish mother. Rhaegar's daughter looked like a Martell, his son like a Targaryen. In other words, there's no telling if the child of a Targaryen/Martell will favor the Targaryen side or the Martell side. And there remains the possibility that Aegon, if he lived, would have grown up to look more and more like his Dornish mother.

Still, this gives a limited range of possible looks for a grown-up Aegon. It would be quite embarrasing if fake-Aegon grew up wth looks outside that range.

Why would they never find her? My point is she'd have died at Lorch's hand with Rhaeneys, her remaining real child.

And how does anyone benefit from her death?

Which Varys couldn't predict, since Varys didn't know who would kill Aegon's fake, or how. If the Mountain had smothered Aegon with a pillow, the plan would be fucked.

Again, maybe Elia was instructed to stay behind and do the deed herself if necessary.

Here's his estimation of his "marry Dany to Drogo" plan.

If truth be told, I did not think Daenerys would survive for long amongst the horselords.

Doesn't really seem like something a Targaryen supporter would have arranged for one of the last living Targaryens, does it?

Danerys didn't really have any better options, And if she is just a backup option, it might be worth it to go for a long shot.

No, Ser Loudmouth has been arguing just that. That's how this whole argument began.

You misunderstood. I said that Aegon's looks make it improbable that he was just some random orphan found by Varys and Illiryo. I argued that he is either a Targaryen or closely related ( a Blackfyre) but against the Blackfyre theory there are other arguments.

[Bravely Done]

Genetics are certainly not exactly like real world genetics, but there's nothing to suggest that people's appearance does not come from the genes of their parents or their ancestors. If this were the case, then Cersei's children being blond would not have been evidence that her children weren't Robert's.

You have no evidence, you were just guessing, again.

I'm not feigning ignorance, I honestly have no idea what the hell your point is, because you are terrible at articulating it.

No, this isn't true. Baelor's own sons had Dornish looks. Maekar's son, Daeron, didn't look like a typical Targaryen either. Bittersteel had the eyes, but not the hair.

You're so busy trolling and backtracking you can't even follow your own arguments.

Ok, but that doesn't change my point. My point is that children of non-Targ parents can grow up to look like non-Targs.

This doesn't even make sense.

You'd be better served simply admitting you were wrong, but that's a struggle for you it seems.

No, the theory is not based on the Kingsguard having wed them. It's based on the fact that they remained at the tower even after Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon were dead. At that point, their new king was supposedly Viserys, yet despite the fact that he was in danger and without Kingsguard protection, the only remaining Kingsguard who were loyal to him chose to remain at the tower. This suggests that the true king was with them, and that that was the reason they chose to stay.

While I would love to discuss your baseless, unsubstantiated crack-pot of a theory, I think it'd best if we get back on topic.

No, we don't know who Maelys's father was. In fact, given that he was the last Blackfyre to trouble the Targs, and given that Catelyn says the Blackfyres troubled the Targaryens for five generations, we can assume that Maelys was a fifth generation Blackfyre.

I reiterate; The child of Deamon Blackfyre's children was Maelys the Monstrous. Maelys father was a son of Daemon Blackfyre, take a look at the family tree.

After Maelys was slain, the male line ended. Period.

Who's making up their own story, now?

You.

Yes, I know. My point is that Varys and Illyrio could not have known that Aegon's appearance would not have changed over time.

So what? If Aegon's legitimacy is to be believed, he's a Targaryen regardless of if his hair turned out the brown of his mother or the silver of his father. If it were brown, Martin would have his legitimacy confirmed some other way, but he wrote it so that it turned out to be the silver of his father, and his father before him. Therefore making it easier to confirm that he's a the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen.

[dragonling]

Hi All. First Post. Something has been bothering me about this whole Aegon is a Blackfyre discussion.

Does anyone else feel it would be/is a cheat for GRRM to hinge the Aegon storyline on a back story (Blackfyres, etc.) that doesn't get much play in the series proper? Many book readers are not Dunk and Egg readers and I am sure I would not be the only one outraged if something that is discussed in depth in an entirely different series becomes central here.

Also when a male line goes extinct, it means the last name has gone extinct (since that would have been the way bloodlines were tracked). So Serra may or may not be a Targ descendant through the Blackfyre female line, but there is really no telling just how many others are out there by virtue of the same descent. As we saw in the case of Quenten, simply possessing dragon blood isn't enough to qualify as one of the three heads and/or dragon riders, so even if Serra and Illyrio had a child of the blood, what makes readers think their pretender to the throne would be successful in getting near Dany's dragons? Pretty risky to send Aegon to Dany if he is an imposter. They must feel really confident about Aegon's degree of affinity to the central Targ line, don't you think?

[Bravely Done]

Hi All. First Post. Something has been bothering me about this whole Aegon is a Blackfyre discussion.

Does anyone else feel it would be/is a cheat for GRRM to hinge the Aegon storyline on a back story (Blackfyres, etc.) that doesn't get much play in the series proper? Many book readers are not Dunk and Egg readers and I am sure I would not be the only one outraged if something that is discussed in depth in an entirely different series becomes central here.

Also when a male line goes extinct, it means the last name has gone extinct (since that would have been the way bloodlines were tracked). So Serra may or may not be a Targ descendant through the Blackfyre female line, but there is really no telling just how many others are out there by virtue of the same descent. As we saw in the case of Quenten, simply possessing dragon blood isn't enough to qualify as one of the three heads and/or dragon riders, so even if Serra and Illyrio had a child of the blood, what makes readers think their pretender to the throne would be successful in getting near Dany's dragons? Pretty risky to send Aegon to Dany if he is an imposter. They must feel really confident about Aegon's degree of affinity to the central Targ line, don't you think?

Bravo. *claps*

[butterbumps!]

BravelyDone,

I think we're missing each other here in the way logic is being constructed, and how to draw out meaning from the text. If we cannot agree on how to establish facts versus speculation, then any discussion is futile, so I am not going to work through your entire post, just the first part, in order to hone in on where the wires are getting crossed.

To answer a question someone raised about why Varys would lie to a dying man when only Varys' little birds stood witness, I said this:


This was pointed out several times why this makes sense. Illyrio is the one who finds and "prepares" Varys' little birds. Illyrio sends Varys the children with their tongues cut off. While it does not provide sufficient evidence to say that Varys is definitively lying to Kevan, it does establish sufficient basis to cast doubt on whether Varys is absolutely telling the truth. While the birds appear loyal to Varys, it is not beyond reasonable doubt that Illyrio may be using some to keep an eye on Varys. If Varys does not have the same endgame as Illyrio, he would be a fool to articulate this in front of the birds that have just as much connection to Illyrio as they do to Varys.


but you responded with this:


It was never established that Illyrio supplies Varys with all his birds. And considering he has birds everywhere in the 7 kingdoms, in castles, stables, and otherwise, I think it's safe to assume that some of his birds are Westerosi.

Actually, it doesn't do that at all. That's your bias leading you to grasping things out of thin air.

This in an unfounded theory unsupported by the text.


Do you see where the breakdown is happening? I stated that it is a textual fact that Illyrio sends Varys little birds. I did not try to speculate that Illyrio is the only source of all of Varys' birds, nor did I suggest that all of his birds come from Essos. I stated that the text says that Illyrio supplies Varys with birds, and the fact that Illyrio supplies Varys with birds might mean that the birds report to Illyrio as well as Varys, at least those that Illyrio is directly providing him. This is a significant point. The fact that Varys is not the only one who has access to some of these birds means that there COULD BE (note: not definitely are) someone (i.e. Illyrio) is also keeping an eye on Varys, making sure Varys stays loyal, doesn't misreport things to Illyrio, whatever the case may be. What I'm saying here is that Varys is not the sole proprietor of all of these birds, and because of this, there is a POSSIBILITY that Illyrio is also keeping tabs on him, and or that Varys does not want to expose too much in their presence.

You accused me of wild speculation, but look at what you're saying very carefully. Even though we have a textual source that tells us that Varys gets his birds from Illyrio, and never mentions any other procurement of birds from anywhere else, you say that "
It was never established that Illyrio supplies Varys with all his birds. And considering he has birds everywhere in the 7 kingdoms, in castles, stables, and otherwise, I think it's safe to assume that some of his birds are Westerosi." Do you realize that you are basing this sentiment from outside of the text, and that this is a speculative statement? Despite being told by the text that this is Varys' source, you feel that it is "safe to assume" that there is something else going on, that what we are shown is not the whole truth.

Yet, when I say that the fact that Varys gets his birds from Illyrio is enough to cast doubt on whether Varys would tell the whole truth to Kevan, you tell me that I am "grasping things out of air." No, I'm not. We all agree that Varys and Illyrio are master schemers. Master schemers take every precaution, even to the point that they spy on their partners. No, this is not strictly from the text, but I am drawing on the knowledge I have of how spies and scheming works, and I think it is very logical to CONSIDER the POSSIBILITY that Varys and Illyrio may even be cautious about each other. You know the saying "no honor among thieves?" As master spies themselves, it is possible that they are taking precautions to verify that each of them are staying true to the plan and to each other. Importantly, as I said above, this does not equal verifiable proof that Varys is lying to Kevan, but it does raise the possibility that there is, in fact, a motive for Varys to lie.

Then you tell me that there is "no evidence in the text to support" my assertion that it is possible that Varys and Illyrio are keeping an eye on each other. No, the text never comes out and states this EITHER WAY. Do you realize that I am not saying that Illyrio is definitely keeping an eye on Varys? Then you would be right, there is no overt evidence to support that. However, I said it is POSSIBLE. The text does give us evidence that it is POSSIBLE that Illyrio could be keeping an eye out for Varys, because the text does not ever explicitly state that Illyrio is NOT spying on Varys. The fact that Illyrio and Varys are spies tells us a lot about how they operate, and especially, that we cannot hope to understand their motives unless we read between the lines to ensure that we are not taking too many things for granted.

The breakdown is happening because you are claiming definitively that Illyrio does not spy on Varys, but we are never given this information, and you are not reading between the lines or thinking flexibly about the nature of Varys and Illyrio and what it means to be a master spy/ schemer. My argument simply points out that Illyrio MIGHT be spying, but I did not state that he was DEFINITELY spying.

[mcb]

Hi All. First Post. Something has been bothering me about this whole Aegon is a Blackfyre discussion.

Does anyone else feel it would be/is a cheat for GRRM to hinge the Aegon storyline on a back story (Blackfyres, etc.) that doesn't get much play in the series proper?

Pretty much the same way as about Bloodraven, AKA the Three-Eyed Crow.

As we saw in the case of Quenten, simply possessing dragon blood isn't enough to qualify as one of the three heads and/or dragon riders, so even if Serra and Illyrio had a child of the blood, what makes readers think their pretender to the throne would be successful in getting near Dany's dragons? Pretty risky to send Aegon to Dany if he is an imposter. They must feel really confident about Aegon's degree of affinity to the central Targ line, don't you think?

I think that by now no one knows much about dragons, breeding dragons, taming dragons, riding dragons, etc. And even if the GC felt confident about Young Griff's dragon compatibility, that wouldn't mean a lot, considering that, as you pointed out, Quentyn, too, felt confident.

Also, do you need Targaryen blood for taming a dragon? Or maybe, for example, any Valyrian pedigree would do? Targaryens weren't by any means the only house to master dragons, they were just the only one to keep them past the Doom. BTW, do we know for a fact where the Daynes are originally from?

Or maybe even blood is way less critical than we assume?

[Lana]

Does anyone else feel it would be/is a cheat for GRRM to hinge the Aegon storyline on a back story (Blackfyres, etc.) that doesn't get much play in the series proper? Many book readers are not Dunk and Egg readers and I am sure I would not be the only one outraged if something that is discussed in depth in an entirely different series becomes central here.

Whether Aegon is a Blackfyre or not, I believe this will never be resolved in the story itself. He will either live or die as Aegon Targaryen to himself and his supporters. To those who doubt his identity, I find it hard to see how they can ever prove it. Proof either way is not needed; the game of thrones comes down to power. So I don't feel that the story hinges on whether he is a Blackfyre; I think it could simply be a treat for fans to pick up on.

[Buried Treasure]

They know that real Aegon will grow up to look like Rheagar on account of him being the son of Rheagar. With a random child they can not be sure.

Allso, if young Griff is just a random impostor, why select him at such a young age? Why not wait some time and then select a boy of 18 years with the appropriate looks and the appropriate skills?

That's why I said that V & I don't just want to support a pretender, they allways wanted to support this pretender in particular (because he is special)

Not a random child so much as a carefully selected child. One that at age 1-4 years had the correct features. If they were worried about the appearace of the child once grown Illyrio might possibly have purchased a mother – and –child pair or otherwise acquired a child whose parents have the correct look.

The plan in its current iteration involves Jon and Aegon himself both believing he is real. Indeed, it relies on that, as Jon supports Aegon because he believes him real. A fake selected at puberty would know he was not real – the plan would fall apart.

Of course it's a 15+ year plot and it could have failed – for instance Faegon could have died of a childhood illness or grey plague – but if Aegon is the original it was still a 15+ year plot and it would havestill fallen apart if he had died in Essos.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Does anyone else feel it would be/is a cheat for GRRM to hinge the Aegon storyline on a back story (Blackfyres, etc.) that doesn't get much play in the series proper?

No. Precisely because, as has been pointed out, the increase in discussion of the Blackfyre Rebellion strongly correlates with the introduction of Aegon. Two-thirds of the Blackfyre Rebellion mentions so far come in the fifth book — which also happens to coincide with Aegon's introduction. Jinkies, Batman!

That's not even counting the very obvious info drop in the Gift Chapter. An info drop that has very little to do with the immediate plot at hand and can thus be construed to be an intentional nudge toward an ultimate solution.

Also, are we seriously still arguing this?

ETA: Also, regarding Jon being legitimate:

Another baseless and unfounded theory with no evidence, from Dragonfish, no less. I'm shocked.

:lmao:

It's also rich that people are talking about the the Blackfyres as if they would look less Valyrian than the Targs. Not necessarily. Considering that Daeron II, Maekar I (you can infer), Aegon V (you can infer) and Jaehaerys II (again, you can infer) did not marry within their family, it's very possible, even likely, that the Blackfyres are more Valyrian by blood than the Targs, not less. We don't know who Viserys II married, if she was a Targ or Valyrian or not. Aegon IV is the common denominator for both Daemon and Daeron II, but Daena had two Valyrian parents and Naerys may have only had one, meaning, right off the bat, the Blackfyre line could have had more Valyrian blood anyway.

[RedBean]

Still, this gives a limited range of possible looks for a grown-up Aegon. It would be quite embarrasing if fake-Aegon grew up wth looks outside that range.

All we know about "Aegon" is that he has purple eyes and white-blond hair. Those traits are easy enough to check, even in a baby. All Illyrio had to do was look at his own son, see that he had these "Targ" traits, and then pass him off as Aegon.

Again, maybe Elia was instructed to stay behind and do the deed herself if necessary.

Sickly little Elia? Is going to bash a baby's head in? Even if she had enough of an evil heart to do it, there would definitely something odd with a mother bashing her own baby's head in...

[Toccs]

@ Bravely Done

It might be a little nerdy, but I would gladly spend several hours/days discussing and debating the various hints, foreshadowing and evidence both for and against Aegon being a Blackfyre and consider it to be a fun use of my time. But you're method of aruging your point is not in any way condusive to a reasonable discussion.

The evidence you have presented seems to all hinge on the same 4 quotes from the book which you have misquoted and taken out of context, you're own personal speculation about the series direction, your apparent belief in Targaryen blood being superior and taking characters like Illyrio, Varys, Viserys and Tyrion at their word. Meanwhile you seemed to be completely unaware of such important points as Varys and Illyrio's conversation in aGoT, Haldon being the one to reveal Young Griff's identity to Tyrion and that the author made a specific point to say that only the male line of Blackfyres was ended.

I have no problem with any of that, no one can be expected to be aware of all the subleties and especially not people new to the forums who may not be familiar with all the the theories going around, but everytime someone has corrected you or introduced a valid piece of evidence that contradicts you, your reaction is to completely ignore or disregard it and start name calling. I've already seem that you have accused several prominent members of the community of trolling.

I'm giving you the benefit ot he doubt that you're not a troll, so I say to you that if you want to have a discussion on Aegon's legitmacy then stop with the name calling, open your mind to the evidence that may contradict you and most importantly accept that you are not the be all and end all when it comes to understanding these books. If you can't do that, then I will take it as confirmation that you are in fact trolling.

[Tiamat]

In aDwD Tyrion saw the statue of the young Illyrio.

If Aegon was Illyrio's son, Tyrion should have noticed a similarity between the two, do not?

[7V3N]

Septon Meribald's story about the crossroads inn says it all for me. Aegon is a Blackfyre pretender.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Septon Meribald's story about the crossroads inn says it all for me. Aegon is a Blackfyre pretender.

Same. I suspected pretty much from the get-go that he was, at least, not the Aegon. But it's hard to have the inn sign story explained and not come away a believer in the Blackfyre theory. Especially considering that Feast and Dance were at one time the same book, meaning the inn sign story might once have been told in between actual Aegon chapters.

[Bravely Done]

@ Bravely Done

It might be a little nerdy, but I would gladly spend several hours/days discussing and debating the various hints, foreshadowing and evidence both for and against Aegon being a Blackfyre and consider it to be a fun use of my time. But you're method of aruging your point is not in any way condusive to a reasonable discussion.

The evidence you have presented seems to all hinge on the same 4 quotes from the book which you have misquoted and taken out of context, you're own personal speculation about the series direction, your apparent belief in Targaryen blood being superior and taking characters like Illyrio, Varys, Viserys and Tyrion at their word. Meanwhile you seemed to be completely unaware of such important points as Varys and Illyrio's conversation in aGoT, Haldon being the one to reveal Young Griff's identity to Tyrion and that the author made a specific point to say that only the male line of Blackfyres was ended.

I have no problem with any of that, no one can be expected to be aware of all the subleties and especially not people new to the forums who may not be familiar with all the the theories going around, but everytime someone has corrected you or introduced a valid piece of evidence that contradicts you, your reaction is to completely ignore or disregard it and start name calling. I've already seem that you have accused several prominent members of the community of trolling.

I'm giving you the benefit ot he doubt that you're not a troll, so I say to you that if you want to have a discussion on Aegon's legitmacy then stop with the name calling, open your mind to the evidence that may contradict you and most importantly accept that you are not the be all and end all when it comes to understanding these books. If you can't do that, then I will take it as confirmation that you are in fact trolling.

If you have issues with my arguments, point them out. Address the points I made and counter them with your own. The above is little more than a broad stroke of nonsensical, ad hominem garbage. I've honored nigh every supporter of the Blackfyre "theory" with responses to their points and posts, addressing all I can, as often as I can. I expect my points to be addressed as well, not glossed over and dismissed because I've challenged your "theory" and threatened your ideas. If you deem that below you, we can stop this discussion right here.

My OP has 40+ likes. Seems my "trolling" sounds plausible, eh?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Address the points I made and counter them with your own.

We have addressed your points, often multiple times, Dragonfish in particular. You only retort that we're making things up and basing them on nothing, which is insulting and untrue. You can't stick your fingers in your ears and say, "Nah nah can't hear you nah nah" and then turn around and say that none of your points were countered. Doesn't work that way.