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From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VI


brashcandy

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She actually thinks "He's so ugly. even uglier than the hound".

I thought it was a strange comment, because she's (somehow) attracted to the hound.

i always like to think that if sandor came into her mind in the middle of her wedding just as she's been delievered to another man & is sharing their first kiss, because as she has mostly done so far, unconciously thinks of him, and even though she doesn't realize yet that the whole Un-kiss memory may very well be because she is attracted to Sandor, i think it's nice that she does not try to white wash his appereance. sandor isn't described i think even without the burs as anything more than comley or plain looking (in face, not awesome muscular body) so we see sansa in her wedding and in the dream she has at the fingers, sort of accepting the way sandor is physically :dunno: or well, that's just why i think sandor popped into her mind just then

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well.....with his face all burned he IS ugly.....

that is stating a fact.

she is just seeing the "beauty within the man" as her septa taught her....that is the key, really...as she tried to find it with Tyrion and failed.

And from an instinctual reproductive stance....she is right to decline Tyrion in favor of Sandor.

Tyrion's physical appearance is....hereditary. Any children she had with Tyrion would have a 50/50 chance of being dwarfs.

Sandor has an external affliction. Burn scars are not passed on to offspring. His offspring would be....well...strong and robust!

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This. Obviously there's credible foreshadowing that we could see Sansa assume some kind of political dominance at the end of the series, and one of the traditional ways to foster this would be via an advantageous marriage alliance, but I really wish more attention was paid to Sansa - the individual - and what she wants, instead of taking it for granted that the burden to restore Stark honour has to fall on her shoulders. And LF - the man who's supposed to be setting her on this road to glory and prestige - is not a disinterested party, so again, the idea of Sansa marrying HtH and going home to rebuild Winterfell is even more of an idealistic notion that is alien to the world of ASOIAF. Sansa first and foremost is going to have to protect her personal interests and then worry about the public ones.

It's interesting to me rereading Sansa's chapters how her perception of the Eyrie and the castles seems to mirror this theme. She describes it more than once as a beautiful castle but relatively empty, how she could never view it as a home. Very interesting how that parallels Joffrey and Cersei and even LF in his own way (I'm not sure he's ever been described as good looking, but how he always smells good and his words are almost always empty). Whereas the ugly looking monsters actually have more depth to them in regards to Sansa (Sandor, Tyrion, and maybe even Sweetrobin).

I see many on this board who believe that Sansa's destiny is to marry Harry and become the Lady of the Vale which doesn't make sense to me. Her descriptions of the Eeyrie always serve to make me think that the Vale is just a temporary waystation for her. She's removed from KL and the North so she can learn from LF and do needed growing before emerging back on to the stage, so to speak. She doesn't view at as her home because it's not meant to be her home.

A marriage to HtH does seem to be rather idealistic indeed. One of the overriding themes in this series is the conflict between private desire and public duty (Jon and Dany come to mind here). I believe that Jon is suffering from depression to some degree, in part from this conflict and we saw Dany yearning for human connection and contact in Dance. Her thoughts after her wedding night with Hizdahr were heartbreakig to read for me. But, these two I think are going to play the larger Hero role in the story that I don't think Sansa will. I'd like to see Sansa find a balance between these two conflicts. Can she wield some political power on her own while also seeing to her personal desires and needs? I do not care for the idea that Sansa needs to be responsible for restoring Stark honor or seeking vengeance for her family. In part, this message seems to be contradictory to what Martin is telling us. It also implies that Sansa should sacrifice her personal needs completely for an abstract concept, an idea that I find extremely uncomfortable.

But, as you say, not sure what exactly that means to her future story. Whatever happens to Sansa next, I don't think her ultimate destiny is to stay in the Vale.

And yes, to continue on this theme, Jaime and Brienne (as I believe has been talked about on here as well) are good characters to introduce. Jaime, formerly probably one of the most attractive men in Westeros but an evil prick nonetheless who was empty on the inside, who is now crippled and uglier and older but who has never been more nice on the inside (in my estimation at least lol). And Brienne of course who I actually find to be very similar to Sansa in terms of her naivete and notions of chivalry.

After I first read Feast all these many years ago, my guess was that Brienne was being released from the BWB to go get Jaime and that the two of them would set off to find and get Sansa out of the Vale. Well, events in Dance seem to show that theory was wrong, at least for now.

Having said that, I still think there is a good chance that the two of them will appear in Sansa's storyline. Martin has set up the different character story lines to start merging together. Sansa is in the Vale but is still pretty close to Brienne, Jaime, Sandor, and the BWB. I don't see unCat getting her final death until she has some knowledge about her children and I'm confident that Sansa will get out of the mountain some time and that she'll need some help to do so. Of course, how exactly this would come to be, I don't know.

This was a really telling observation :) As Rapsie noted, Sansa isn't quite aware of her attraction to Sandor, but it does reveal itself to readers when she makes comments like these. Comparing the two men makes absolutely no sense if Sansa in some way did not feel latent attraction to Sandor, and the starkness of the contrast between the two men is important. Loras is Sansa's ideal type, and Sandor is miles away from embodying those kinds of harmonious features, but his ability to still feature in her romantic thoughts and ultimately to replace Loras, really emphasises IMO how her feelings for him are gradually getting stronger.

Another interesting tidbit from Dany's ADWD section is how she is super attracted to Daario and imagines his kisses to be "cruel". In this context it seems "cruel" as in unrelenting, or fierce, or similar. It's at least clear that Dany thinks she would appreciate it. Sansa describes the UnKiss using similar words, how she could remember the feel of "his cruel lips" on hers.

Yes, she does. My favourite one is when she compares Ser Loras to Sandor, and at that point she probably didn't mean it that way, but it actually reads like Ser Loras would be useless in the long run. "As different as a flower from a dog". While a flower may be pretty, it's also pretty useless and won't last very long, while a dog has the potential to be a loyal companion, and is arguably also more dangerous than a flower!

I think that Dany's thoughts on Daario's kisses are the same as Sansa's in that they both are admiring the same thing. Dany's attraction to Daario is about his masculinity, his swagger, his masculine confidence, what have you. It's the same admiration that Sansa seems to show for Sandor's ferocity. I'm not sure that Sansa understands this on a conscious level yet but she has purposefully pointed out that his rage frightens her. She wishes Dontos had his ferocity and seems to equate it with his ability to keep her from harm. Sansa's desciption of "cruel lips" isn't about trauma that night, it's the association of his kiss with one of his features that she most admires.

As for Sandor and Loras, I've got some thoughts on symbolism between the two of them and the Hand's tourney that I want to submit to the group tomorrow. I think there is some foreshadowing back then as it relates to Sansa's flowering and maidenhood that I've missed before.

Minor edits for clarity.

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I think that Dany's thoughts on Daario's kisses are the same as Sansa's in that they both are admiring the same thing. Dany's attraction to Daario is about his masculinity, his swagger, his masculine confidence, what have you. It's the same admiration that Sansa seems to show for Sandor's ferocity. I'm not sure that Sansa understands this on a conscious level yet but she has purposefully pointed out that his rage frightens her. She wishes Dontos had his ferocity and seems to equate it with his ability to keep her from harm. Sansa's desciption of "cruel lips" isn't about trauma that night, it's the association of his kiss with one of his features that she most admires.

Indeed. BTW Kittykatknits, I read your excellent comments in the Same-sex thread on Asha/Qarl and how the sex scene worked to reveal Asha's character and the concerns/conflicts present in her life. This topic is definitely applicable to Sansa as well, as we learn a lot about her via her intimate moments with Sandor and Tyrion.

As for Sandor and Loras, I've got some thoughts on symbolism between the two of them and the Hand's tourney that I want to submit to the group tomorrow. I think their is some foreshadowing down back then as it relates to Sansa's flowering and maidenhood that I've missed before.

:) I'm excited to see what you've come up with.

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As for Sandor and Loras, I've got some thoughts on symbolism between the two of them and the Hand's tourney that I want to submit to the group tomorrow. I think their is some foreshadowing down back then as it relates to Sansa's flowering and maidenhood that I've missed before.

Now that you mention it, I can see some interesting things there that I didn't before, but I shall wait for you to post your thoughts before I say anymore. :)

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I think that Dany's thoughts on Daario's kisses are the same as Sansa's in that they both are admiring the same thing. Dany's attraction to Daario is about his masculinity, his swagger, his masculine confidence, what have you. It's the same admiration that Sansa seems to show for Sandor's ferocity. I'm not sure that Sansa understands this on a conscious level yet but she has purposefully pointed out that his rage frightens her. She wishes Dontos had his ferocity and seems to equate it with his ability to keep her from harm. Sansa's desciption of "cruel lips" isn't about trauma that night, it's the association of his kiss with one of his features that she most admires.

What's interesting here, and may also be why a lot of people have reacted negatively to Dany fancying him, is that Daario definitely does not come across as traditionally attractive or good looking. He's rather far away from the more "perfect" looking men like Loras, Renly and Jaime. Is this a subconcious reaction that the really pretty girl should somehow always be paired off with a really good looking guy, too? Apparently it's ok if it's the other way around (Brienne/Jaime and perhaps Ygritte to a degree).

Strangely, there seems to be negative reactions to pretty girls picking pretty men (Sansa fawning over Loras) but then there also seems to be negative reactions to pretty girls fancying guys who're not conventionally good looking enough (Daario and Sandor fall in this category I think). Is this why Harry the Heir is so popular despite only being mentioned in passing? He's described as fairly good looking, but not stunning, hence he would be "just right".

As for Sandor and Loras, I've got some thoughts on symbolism between the two of them and the Hand's tourney that I want to submit to the group tomorrow. I think there is some foreshadowing back then as it relates to Sansa's flowering and maidenhood that I've missed before.

Ah nice. :)

What I always found rather snigger worthy on rereads is that Sansa seems to favour the Hound over even Loras, since she brags "I knew the Hound would win" to LF and Renly.

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I think that Dany's thoughts on Daario's kisses are the same as Sansa's in that they both are admiring the same thing. Dany's attraction to Daario is about his masculinity, his swagger, his masculine confidence, what have you. It's the same admiration that Sansa seems to show for Sandor's ferocity. I'm not sure that Sansa understands this on a conscious level yet but she has purposefully pointed out that his rage frightens her. She wishes Dontos had his ferocity and seems to equate it with his ability to keep her from harm. Sansa's desciption of "cruel lips" isn't about trauma that night, it's the association of his kiss with one of his features that she most admires.

I think you're quite right here.

In fact, in the wedding scene, the thing that seem to put her off the most is the fact that Tyrion appears insecure and frightened.

"Perhaps that should have made her feel more kindly toward him, but it did not. All she felt was pity, and pity was death to desire."

That's quite a bold statement, coming from a 13 year old.

She has a similarly ambiguous thought when she recalls her wedding night later.

She has first swooned after Loras when she saw him unhorsing knights and winning duels in a tourney, which sounds like a brutal thing.

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What's interesting here, and may also be why a lot of people have reacted negatively to Dany fancying him, is that Daario definitely does not come across as traditionally attractive or good looking. He's rather far away from the more "perfect" looking men like Loras, Renly and Jaime. Is this a subconcious reaction that the really pretty girl should somehow always be paired off with a really good looking guy, too? Apparently it's ok if it's the other way around (Brienne/Jaime and perhaps Ygritte to a degree).

Strangely, there seems to be negative reactions to pretty girls picking pretty men (Sansa fawning over Loras) but then there also seems to be negative reactions to pretty girls fancying guys who're not conventionally good looking enough (Daario and Sandor fall in this category I think). Is this why Harry the Heir is so popular despite only being mentioned in passing? He's described as fairly good looking, but not stunning, hence he would be "just right".

I find so many positive reactions to Harry to be rather confusing. He hasn't actually appeared on-screen yet, what little we do know is second hand. Yet, the reaction from many is that he'd be a good match for Sansa. My guess is that he will matter quite a bit in Sansa's short/medium-term plot line and not at all in Sansa's long-term story. But for now, he's a non-entity which makes it easy to project on to him.

I think the problem with Daario is that the image he projects overwhelms the rest of him. The swagger, clothes, swords, and dyed hair are what we see first. It makes it harder to get past what he is saying and doing. I was thinking earlier of his conversation with Dany after she tells him about the GG's suggestion that he marry. His reaction and words to her reminded me of Sandor in some ways . His brutal offer was an awful lot like Sandor's belief on sharp steel and strong arms. He was also making a point in being honest with her, in a way that the rest of her advisors that evening were not, which reminded me of Sandor's statements about being honest and pointing out to Sansa how everyone in KL was a liar. That final statement of his asking her if she remembered who she really is parallels with Sandor's description of Sansa as a little talking bird who repeats back what she hears. In that scene, she seemed to be parroting some of what the GG said back to Daario and he called her out on it.

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What's interesting here, and may also be why a lot of people have reacted negatively to Dany fancying him, is that Daario definitely does not come across as traditionally attractive or good looking. He's rather far away from the more "perfect" looking men like Loras, Renly and Jaime. Is this a subconcious reaction that the really pretty girl should somehow always be paired off with a really good looking guy, too? Apparently it's ok if it's the other way around (Brienne/Jaime and perhaps Ygritte to a degree).

Yeah, one of the major grouses against Daario is due to how he supposedly looks and readers can't imagine why Dany would fancy him :) But then Quentyn appears, along with his goodlooking friend Gerris Drinkwater, and Dany is castigated for not choosing the "sweet, but plain Prince." She makes IIRC one off hand comment that it would have been better if Quentyn looked like Gerris, and suddenly she's shallow and only interested in handsome men.

All this just supports what we've been saying concerning female desire. Readers either believe that they have to approve of a man's looks in order understand why the woman would find him desirable, or they believe that the woman should overlook the plainness (or ugliness) of a man whom she's not attracted to, as long as he's nice to her and isn't a prick/jerk/ruthless killer.

Is this why Harry the Heir is so popular despite only being mentioned in passing? He's described as fairly good looking, but not stunning, hence he would be "just right".

Perhaps. The sense I get, and it goes back to this negation of female desire, is that Harry will be ok simply because Sansa doesn't have a choice in choosing him. Heaven forbid that her preference for Sandor should be considered as a valid option, despite whether we think it's appropriate or not. HtH is a safe choice, because he isn't Sansa's choice.

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I think you're quite right here.

In fact, in the wedding scene, the thing that seem to put her off the most is the fact that Tyrion appears insecure and frightened.

"Perhaps that should have made her feel more kindly toward him, but it did not. All she felt was pity, and pity was death to desire."

That's quite a bold statement, coming from a 13 year old.

She has a similarly ambiguous thought when she recalls her wedding night later.

She has first swooned after Loras when she saw him unhorsing knights and winning duels in a tourney, which sounds like a brutal thing.

I'm not quite sure I would say that one of the reasons for her lack of desire for Tyrion was because he was insecure and frightened. We've seen Sansa respond to Sandor in a remarkably different way when he's shown insecurity and fear; she's even able to sense it beneath his concerted attempts at macho posturing :) In fact, she's at her most responsive to him in those moments of weakness/vulnerability. We know that when it comes to Tyrion she's absolutely repulsed by his looks, so that too is undoubtedly playing a role in the "death to desire" aspect of their relationship. I do agree with you though that Sansa is attracted to valiant displays of masculine power and this is not surprising given her preference for gallant knights. However, when it comes to Sandor, it's all this and more, and I think it's a useful example of how attraction isn't something we can predict or ever quite explain.

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Perhaps. The sense I get, and it goes back to this negation of female desire, is that Harry will be ok simply because Sansa doesn't have a choice in choosing him. Heaven forbid that her preference for Sandor should be considered as a valid option, despite whether we think it's appropriate or not. HtH is a safe choice, because he isn't Sansa's choice.

Yes, the feeling I get wrt to people's views on Harry the Heir, is that they like him almost *because* he is Littlefinger's choice for Sansa (disregarding completely the creepy undertones of 'LF knows best and in actuality thinks of himself as the best choice for Sansa'). Its almost like some readers *want* Sansa to be continually forced to 'learn her lesson' by having men she has no say in pushed at her, and that she needs to accept them and 'get over' her own preferences. Just the rather icky feeling I get from people sometimes. I sincerely hope that this is not the message that the text itself ultimately espouses. :ack:

ETA: Its one thing if Sansa's tastes change of her own accord, but another if she is being forced to accept something else 'for her own good' or because it will serve the realm or some abstract idea of her family's honour (or LF's plans). That's what I find rather upsetting.

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I think you're quite right here.

In fact, in the wedding scene, the thing that seem to put her off the most is the fact that Tyrion appears insecure and frightened.

"Perhaps that should have made her feel more kindly toward him, but it did not. All she felt was pity, and pity was death to desire."

That's quite a bold statement, coming from a 13 year old.

She has a similarly ambiguous thought when she recalls her wedding night later.

She has first swooned after Loras when she saw him unhorsing knights and winning duels in a tourney, which sounds like a brutal thing.

I'm not quite sure I would say that one of the reasons for her lack of desire for Tyrion was because he was insecure and frightened. We've seen Sansa respond to Sandor in a remarkably different way when he's shown insecurity and fear; she's even able to sense it beneath his concerted attempts at macho posturing :) In fact, she's at her most responsive to him in those moments of weakness/vulnerability. We know that when it comes to Tyrion she's absolutely repulsed by his looks, so that too is undoubtedly playing a role in the "death to desire" aspect of their relationship. I do agree with you though that Sansa is attracted to valiant displays of masculine power and this is not surprising given her preference for gallant knights. However, when it comes to Sandor, it's all this and more, and I think it's a useful example of how attraction isn't something we can predict or ever quite explain.

Well Sansa was also repulsed by Tyrion (on top of him being a scarred dwarf) because of one UN-changeable fact: He is a Lannister.

Even if it had been Lancel (prior to injuries) she probably would've been less than thrilled.

There were many things working against Tyrion that night, first and foremost, that he was a Lannister. On that basis, put in young, pretty Lancel or the handsome, golden Jaime and I think we would see similar reactions in terms of eagerness to do her "duty" in the marriage bed. Huh, now that I think about it, Jaime might have been the better brother. That night wouldn't have happened and Jaime wouldn't have had deluded himself in to thinking he could have the perfect wife with Sansa.

That line about pity being the death of desire is a truthful one, but I think there is more going on to that statement than merely lack of desire for Tyrion. Just before it, she is reflecting on what Septa Mordane had taught her about a man's body, that there is something beautiful in everyone. Sansa was turning to her Septa's teaching as a way to cope with that night, to help prepare herself for what was coming. She was able to use her Septas's teaching about courtesy armor before so she was seeking strength in other teachings, but that had failed. This time, Septa Mordane's teaching are not going to work. It goes back to one of my thoughts on Septa Mordane - a woman who is neither a wife or mother is a poor choice to teach someone how to be either. Sansa is not attracted to Tyrion, for a variety of reasons. Female desire is normal and worth the same as a man, an opinion that is very much in conflict with what her Septa taught her. I think that is, in part, what we saw with Sansa in this moment.

I agree with brashcandy on Sansa and pity as well. She still feels desire towards Sandor, despite seeing him in very emotionally vulnerable places more than once. Sansa has a type though, she admires strength and masculinity, which Sandor displays. But, that's OK, she has every right to desire those things.

And, uh, I can't blame her much, the man is muscled like a bull... :drool:

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That line about pity being the death of desire is a truthful one, but I think there is more going on to that statement than merely lack of desire for Tyrion. Just before it, she is reflecting on what Septa Mordane had taught her about a man's body, that there is something beautiful in everyone. Sansa was turning to her Septa's teaching as a way to cope with that night, to help prepare herself for what was coming. She was able to use her Septas's teaching about courtesy armor before so she was seeking strength in other teachings, but that had failed. This time, Septa Mordane's teaching are not going to work. It goes back to one of my thoughts on Septa Mordane - a woman who is neither a wife or mother is a poor choice to teach someone how to be either. Sansa is not attracted to Tyrion, for a variety of reasons. Female desire is normal and worth the same as a man, an opinion that is very much in conflict with what her Septa taught her. I think that is, in part, what we saw with Sansa in this moment.

Actually the thoughts about Septa Mordane come after that observation, when Tyrion has told her he will not touch her until she wants him to, and she's desperately trying to look at him and see if that could be possible. Anyhow, it's of little consequence because the result is all the same. She can appreciate Tyrion's fear, but the pity it creates in her is not conducive to desire. I think the point here is that while she feels compassion for Sandor, she doesn't pity him. The nature of their relationship is one where she becomes involved and intimately affected by his drama, rather than simply as a sympathetic observer.

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Actually the thoughts about Septa Mordane come after that observation, when Tyrion has told her he will not touch her until she wants him to, and she's desperately trying to look at him and see if that could be possible. Anyhow, it's of little consequence because the result is all the same. She can appreciate Tyrion's fear, but the pity it creates in her is not conducive to desire. I think the point here is that while she feels compassion for Sandor, she doesn't pity him. The nature of their relationship is one where she becomes involved and intimately affected by his drama, rather than simply as a sympathetic observer.

The situations are pretty different as well. In the Tyrion scenario, it's a far starker situation for Sansa herself and she comes to realise that both Tyrion and herself are extremely unhappy, afraid and uncomfortable in that particular scenario. They're also uncomfortable with the other person and unable to connect over anything..

With Sandor she is presented with a really gruesome tale about what happened to him a long time ago, and she can empathise with him, which enables her to reach out to him, which seems to drive them closer together instead of apart.

In the Tyrion situation Sansa even speaks up and defines the distance between them, but with Sandor she reaches out and touches him instead. I don't think she touches Tyrion willingly even once. He even remarks on how she stiffens when he takes her arm. I didn't see Sansa as hostile to Tyrion so much as just really uncomfortable and constantly on her guard, since she does not trust him and doesn't understand him.

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maybe the fact that Sandor never once (despite all the creepy leering accusations) exposed his erect "bulbous head" to her and fondled her boobs.

he may have had thoughts of who knows what.....even stuck a knife to her throat (which even LF said always fear the knife you CANT see...not the one in your face)

but he kept his hands off in that regard

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Yes, the feeling I get wrt to people's views on Harry the Heir, is that they like him almost *because* he is Littlefinger's choice for Sansa (disregarding completely the creepy undertones of 'LF knows best and in actuality thinks of himself as the best choice for Sansa'). Its almost like some readers *want* Sansa to be continually forced to 'learn her lesson' by having men she has no say in pushed at her, and that she needs to accept them and 'get over' her own preferences. Just the rather icky feeling I get from people sometimes. I sincerely hope that this is not the message that the text itself ultimately espouses. :ack:

Yes, gosh, I thought I was the only person who sensed this :) And even more disturbing is the failure to recognize the red flag of Harry behaving like the Robert Baratheon of old. Of course, this could be Martin trying to throw us off track, but it's a worrying sign nevertheless.

ETA: Its one thing if Sansa's tastes change of her own accord, but another if she is being forced to accept something else 'for her own good' or because it will serve the realm or some abstract idea of her family's honour (or LF's plans). That's what I find rather upsetting.

Precisely. Why should she accept HtH simply because it might present her best option to reclaim Winterfell? Why should personal happiness be sacrificed for public duty? And no, I don't think we can equate "Sansa, the girl longing for home" with "Sansa, the heir to Winterfell." There's a tendency I guess to see Winterfell as the be all and end all for the Starks, but I think Martin has been undermining that concept since book one, and also complicating the notion of home throughout the series.

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Precisely. Why should she accept HtH simply because it might present her best option to reclaim Winterfell? Why should personal happiness be sacrificed for public duty? And no, I don't think we can equate "Sansa, the girl longing for home" with "Sansa, the heir to Winterfell." There's a tendency I guess to see Winterfell as the be all and end all for the Starks, but I think Martin has been undermining that concept since book one, and also complicating the notion of home throughout the series.

For Sansa and Arya though, Winterfell is "home" not because its location but because the people who inhabited it, and I think this is what people often forget. A burnt out shell is a burnt out shell only. Without people in it, it's almost nothing, just a heap of memories.

Then there's also the fact that a claim disempowers Sansa and she knows that now. It seems unlikely she would make an about turn and go "Hell yes", grab Harry and try to raise an army to secure a claim. Sansa cares for her own survival and that of her family, not for upwards mobility and arbitrary notions of grabbing power for the sake of grabbing power.

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