From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VI

[brashcandy]

I don't see how feeling or fulfilling an obligation to rebuild WF precludes happiness. Can't she be happy because she is retaking Winterfell, if that is what happens? Really, if she decides to just marry for love and live in Essos somewhere I'll be very disappointed with her arc, because that doesn't seem to be where she's being taken at all. I like the idea of her in QoT role with Bran or Rickon as the heirs to WF.

I think the reason why is because "retaking" Winterfell would be a strictly political move which would most likely require Sansa to be involved in another marriage alliance. She wants Winterfell, but she also doesn't want to be used for her claim, and home holds personal, not political value for her. As Kittykatknits noted, the game is a prominent part of her storyline, but so is the quest for personal autonomy and a discovery of genuine romance. Given what we've seen in the story, the subjugation of the latter for the former can have disastrous consequences.

Yesterday, I mentioned some connections between Loras and Sandor at the Hand’s tourney as it relates to Sansa. I’m not calling this a theory or pointing towards symbolism yet but felt there was enough her to put in front of everyone. Really, this could also just be coincidence.

During the Hand’s tourney, Sansa tells of receiving a red rose from Loras:

Then the next day, we learn that Sansa is still wearing the flower Loras gave her:

We also have Sansa’s comments about the Hound too; her confident statement that she knew he would win and then she asks her father if he is “the champion now?” as if the fact that he would be the champion is a foregone conclusion. Note that all this is happening while she is wearing a symbol of her coming moon blood and all that it implies.

I’ve read these scenes several times and never thought much about them beyond what I’ve seen discussed here until I saw a passing comment about Cersei calling Sansa’s moonblood a red flower. Sansa’s wearing the flower, a reflection of her more superficial crush on Loras. But, she’s cheering on the Hound and it’s almost as if she doesn’t realize that she prefers one champion over another. This seems to parallel Sansa later in the series, when she realizes her girlish crush with more adult feelings with Sandor.

The other element here is that Loras probably gave that flower to Sansa almost at random, we learn in Storm that he had already forgotten about it. Yet, we could almost say that Loras gave Sansa his favor, as the rose is the sigil of House Tyrell. But, during the Hand’s tourney, Loras hands the victory to Sandor. So, could we also say that he’s giving that favor over to Sandor as well?

As I mentioned earlier, we also have Cersei calling Sansa’s moonblood a red flower. But, we know that Sandor was there the moment that Sansa flowered and she created the unKiss memory from a moment when she will still having her moon blood.

So, is it possible that the actions regarding the red flower at the Hand’s tourney could foreshadow further events and hint that Sandor will be the one to take her maidenhood some day?

Love it! Back with more thoughts in a while :)

[Kittykatknits]

Full disclosure: I'm only halfway through AFFC so there's very likely something that will turn here, but I can easily see her mastering the game well enough to retake WF and then Bran and/or Rickon return. And I do agree that it will be freeing. Not just because of the "my brothers are alive!" moment, but she will have proven to pretty much all of Westeros by then that she is no one's pawn.

I don't see how feeling or fulfilling an obligation to rebuild WF precludes happiness. Can't she be happy because she is retaking Winterfell, if that is what happens? Really, if she decides to just marry for love and live in Essos somewhere I'll be very disappointed with her arc, because that doesn't seem to be where she's being taken at all. I like the idea of her in QoT role with Bran or Rickon as the heirs to WF.

A warning, if you aren't done with AFFC yet, you may get spoilers on this board for lots of topics. There is a still reading section if you want to avoid spoilers.

I don't want to give anything away for you, so I'm going to be very vague but in Sansa's final chapter we get some insights on what she does want as well as further reminders that Sansa's story is not just the game, but it's romance, love, and family too. Sansa, while in KL especially but even in the Vale, has had her agency taken from her. She was a hostage who has been beaten, forced in to a marriage for her claim, and then passed from one engagement to another. To "retake" WF as the heir, it would most likely require her to marry as that is the only way she currently has available to do so. A marriage means that the man she marries would then be able to take that claim from her, which is the very thing Sansa wants to avoid. She's tired of being a pawn and her claim is making her a pawn.

A common theme in this series is the conflict of personal happiness versus public duty. As brashcandy noted earlier, when women are forced to pick the latter over the former, it usually leads ultimately to disaster. For Sansa to feel an obligation to rebuild WF, then that means she is having to also choose public duty. We know this because Sansa has already told us what she is looking for.

So. to me, rather than say that Sansa needs to rebuild WF, is to explore how Sansa can fulfill any responsibilities that she feels she has in the public space while also seeking personal fulfillment. Sansa's story arc tells us that in order for her to achieve both, merely rebuilding WF will not accomplish this goal.

Love it! Back with more thoughts in a while :)

Thank you. :) Looking forward to what you have to say. :)

[brashcandy]

@Kittykatknits - - ok I'm back :)

As noted, I really love what you came up with on the symbolism related to Loras' red flower and Sansa's moonblood. First though, to your point about how Loras gives the favour over to Sandor - remember a while back we talked about the significance behind the cloak exchanges and I contended that Sandor didn't have the social authority to be able to actually place his cloak around Sansa's shoulder, but that the importance of her taking and wearing his cloak two times still remained?

Well your analysis on the events of the Hand's tourney is another example I believe of Sandor not having that access to Sansa, in this case he's not the gallant knight loved by the commons who can show up in flashy armour, but he nevertheless gains that opportunity through another person/an unexpected development. So whilst he's excluded on the social stage, GRRM establishes the connection between the two via symbolic actions: in this case, Loras naming Sandor as champion, in effect earning him not only the love of the commons, but the love of the fair maiden. It also means that Sandor was always destined to "replace" Loras Tyrell in Sansa's fantasies. Sandor has so far always needed an intermediary, someone to act as a go-between or an instigator for the intimacy between him and Sansa. After Loras, it was Tyrion and in the BB scene it's Sansa herself. This highlights the inherent difficulties of a relationship between the two, but it also suggests that it won't be impossible.

I'll talk about the red flower/moonblood in another post.

[Monica21]

A warning, if you aren't done with AFFC yet, you may get spoilers on this board for lots of topics. There is a still reading section if you want to avoid spoilers.

I've been spoiled by a friend of mine who's through ADWD so far, so I'm not worried about spoilers.

I don't want to give anything away for you, so I'm going to be very vague but in Sansa's final chapter we get some insights on what she does want as well as further reminders that Sansa's story is not just the game, but it's romance, love, and family too. Sansa, while in KL especially but even in the Vale, has had her agency taken from her. She was a hostage who has been beaten, forced in to a marriage for her claim, and then passed from one engagement to another. To "retake" WF as the heir, it would most likely require her to marry as that is the only way she currently has available to do so. A marriage means that the man she marries would then be able to take that claim from her, which is the very thing Sansa wants to avoid. She's tired of being a pawn and her claim is making her a pawn.

What I see in Sansa's story now is that she still does want those things, but they are not currently available to her. Not that they will never be available to her. What I'm trying to say, and perhaps have been saying poorly, is that LF's tutelage will give her the tools to free herself to make her own decisions, her own alliances, and potentially her own marriage. I would much rather see Bran or Rickon in Winterfell to keep the Stark line intact, but I also really want Sansa to belong to herself.

A common theme in this series is the conflict of personal happiness versus public duty. As brashcandy noted earlier, when women are forced to pick the latter over the former, it usually leads ultimately to disaster. For Sansa to feel an obligation to rebuild WF, then that means she is having to also choose public duty. We know this because Sansa has already told us what she is looking for.

From what little I know of Bran and Rickon from ADWD neither of them are in a position to take Winterfell. Bran is stuck in a tree and Rickon is practically feral. The only Stark with the potential is Sansa, so if a Stark is going to do it, it will likely have to be her. I honestly don't see this series ending without the Starks returning to Winterfell and quite possibly sovereigns in the North. The series ending with the Seven Kingdoms being ruled just as it was when it started just seems so... boring?

So. to me, rather than say that Sansa needs to rebuild WF, is to explore how Sansa can fulfill any responsibilities that she feels she has in the public space while also seeking personal fulfillment. Sansa's story arc tells us that in order for her to achieve both, merely rebuilding WF will not accomplish this goal.

I certainly agree with you on this. I don't think she will ever be truly happy if she ends up as a Virgin Queen type, but I also don't think she will be truly happy if she abandons Winterfell. My happily ever after for Sansa is Bran or Rickon in Winterfell, Sansa as the true power behind the seat, and happily married. I think I may be reaching a bit too high for all that though.

And I don't mean to continue replying just to you. I start a reply, someone else has a reply that expands on the topic, then my reply has to expand, and I end up quoting you. Sorry! :)

[brashcandy]

Kittykatknits:

So, is it possible that the actions regarding the red flower at the Hand’s tourney could foreshadow further events and hint that Sandor will be the one to take her maidenhood some day?

Short answer: yes :)

The red flower at the Hand's tourney represented (for Sansa) love and genuine affection. Sansa's red flower - aka her moonblood- symbolizes her development into womanhood, and her blossoming sexuality. I find your connection really revealing, Kittykatknits, because as we see in the text, both these "red flowers" only bloom around Sandor. When Loras gives Sansa the red rose it doesn't mean anything to him, but given that Sandor is the one who is eventually named champion, the flower is now aligned with him, not Loras, and based on what we know of how their relationship develops, it's fair to say that the flower retains its original signification, although Sansa doesn't realise it.

Cersei specifically asks her:

Is your red flower still blooming?

and Sansa's response is yes, perhaps foreshadowing the coming closeness that occurs between her and Sandor later on in the night. The red blooming flower might also explain why she responds to Sandor in such a mature, almost womanly manner after his outburst of anger, and of course could relate to the sexual tension/danger that infuses that meeting.

[Caro99]

Kittykatknits:

Short answer: yes :)

The red flower at the Hand's tourney represented (for Sansa) love and genuine affection. Sansa's red flower - aka her moonblood- symbolizes her development into womanhood, and her blossoming sexuality. I find your connection really revealing, Kittykatknits, because as we see in the text, both these "red flowers" only bloom around Sandor. When Loras gives Sansa the red rose it doesn't mean anything to him, but given that Sandor is the one who is eventually named champion, the flower is now aligned with him, not Loras, and based on what we know of how their relationship develops, it's fair to say that the flower retains it's original signification, although Sansa doesn't realise it.

Cersei specifically asks her: and Sansa's response is yes, perhaps foreshadowing the coming closeness that occurs between her and Sandor later on in the night. The red blooming flower might also explain why she responds to Sandor in such a mature, almost womanly manner after his outburst of anger, and of course could relate to the sexual tension/danger that infuses that meeting.

aww Brash, i'm loving your thoughs on the whole loras/sandor topic too! so against all odds sansa is the queen of love & beauty in the tourney where sandor won. as you said, he can't directly give name her himself, but through loras this time the result was just the same...

it's nice to see that sansa was still hoping sandor would win because the previous night that special encounter of trust and bonding happened. sandor laid the cards on the table in a way to sansa telling her that he was no knight; she was living basicaly in songs not real life; he told her something quite sad about him and she did not shy away; he scared her and made her cry and wanted to tore the blind from her eyes about joff's gallantry and the whole true knight's issue.. and even after all this, we still see that though he doesn't fit the common champion sort the way jaime or loras would, sansa was not a bit upseat about him being the champion. So she sort of since that memorable night accepted Sandor as he was when instead of running away she comforted him..

& about the red flower, i agree that the way she behaved towards the end of the UnKiss moment was almost womanly. the bit of some instinct made her lift up her hand thing sounds like what a lover would do. when she comforted him the night of the tourney, it was because they bonded and she understood and gave him support and kindness the way a young girl could, but the night of the blackwater certainly showed us a more mature sansa with the way she shifted the situation so that sandor was the ony breaking down, and she giving him what he really needed at the moment...

[Natalie_S]

The situations are pretty different as well. In the Tyrion scenario, it's a far starker situation for Sansa herself and she comes to realise that both Tyrion and herself are extremely unhappy, afraid and uncomfortable in that particular scenario. They're also uncomfortable with the other person and unable to connect over anything..

With Sandor she is presented with a really gruesome tale about what happened to him a long time ago, and she can empathise with him, which enables her to reach out to him, which seems to drive them closer together instead of apart.

In the Tyrion situation Sansa even speaks up and defines the distance between them, but with Sandor she reaches out and touches him instead. I don't think she touches Tyrion willingly even once. He even remarks on how she stiffens when he takes her arm. I didn't see Sansa as hostile to Tyrion so much as just really uncomfortable and constantly on her guard, since she does not trust him and doesn't understand him.

Generally I agree with you.

I think Sansa does touch Tyrion during the wedding though, for example she puts her hand over his when she asks him to open the dance.

They surely are very awkward with each other, because of the lack of mutual trust, yet there are moments in which they could be on the same page if only they talked:

"The damned thing's as tall as I am," Tyrion muttered in a low voice. "Half a chalice and Joff will be falling down drunk."

Good, she thought. Perhaps he'll break his neck.

She wants to be left alone, yet she's not very happy when he doesn't pay her attention:

Tyrion drank another cup of wine. He might have been all alone in his solar for all the attention he paid Sansa. But when the time came to leave for the wedding, he took her by the hand.

I also thought that this part is particularly ambiguous:

The memory of her own wedding night with Tyrion was much with her. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers, he had said. I could be good to you. But that was only another Lannister lie.

Why should it be a lie? He had been good to her, after all. She says it herself only half a page later. And how can she know that he can't be "the Knight of Flowers" in the dark?

In fact then she goes back thinking about the Hound, as all time there's a reference to lovemaking, which is a think another subtle way to suggest to the reader that she's attracted to him physically.

I think that, in some obscure way, she resent him not only for being a Lannister, but also for not being the decisional, fierce and strong man that is her ideal (Sandor?).

I honestly don't know what her ambiguous feelings towards Tyrion should mean, but I think they are bound to meet again in the future... and then only GRRM knows what will happen. Maybe they'll become best pals, or at least allies.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

She just simply didn't have any attraction towards Tyrion. He is also the Hand of the King at the time and was at war with her brother. Besides, did he free her? Did he say NO to the wedding and send her off to Robb? (granted in hindsight it was good as she'd be dead after the RW).

So yes he is a Lannister. He is still very much her jailer....he is just a NICE jailer. Still a jailer nonetheless.

Regardless of how much kindness he may extend, he is an active part of the family that beheaded her father, tried to kill her little brother, possibly killed her younger sister (as no one knows Arya's fate), kept her hostage, shipped off Jeyne, killed her household retainer and then waged war with her older brother.

[Lyanna Stark]

Well your analysis on the events of the Hand's tourney is another example I believe of Sandor not having that access to Sansa, in this case he's not the gallant knight loved by the commons who can show up in flashy armour, but he nevertheless gains that opportunity through another person/an unexpected development. So whilst he's excluded on the social stage, GRRM establishes the connection between the two via symbolic actions: in this case, Loras naming Sandor as champion, in effect earning him not only the love of the commons, but the love of the fair maiden. It also means that Sandor was always destined to "replace" Loras Tyrell in Sansa's fantasies.

Ah yes, Loras as the proxy, and yes he does act like this on quite a few instances, just like Renly gets to act as the proxy for Brienne's thoughts on Jaime.

Interestingly, the Hand's Tourney was in Ned's honour even if Ned couldn't care any less about it. Looking at the Harrenhal tournament, wasn't the Whent daughter automatically the Queen of Love and Beauty until Rhaegar named Lyanna too? Just like Ned to forego anything like frippery and southron traditions of gallantry. Although tbh I think it's a shame that Sandor didn't get to become Rhaegar for a moment at least and pick a Queen of Love and Beauty . I wonder what on earth he would have thought of that? :lol: (I imagine a bit FU and handing that bit over to Loras.)

[brashcandy]

I also thought that this part is particularly ambiguous:

The memory of her own wedding night with Tyrion was much with her. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers, he had said. I could be good to you. But that was only another Lannister lie.

Why should it be a lie? He had been good to her, after all. She says it herself only half a page later. And how can she know that he can't be "the Knight of Flowers" in the dark?

In fact then she goes back thinking about the Hound, as all time there's a reference to lovemaking, which is a think another subtle way to suggest to the reader that she's attracted to him physically.

She knows he can't be the knight of flowers in the dark because it was a preposterous claim to begin with. Tyrion's mode of seduction is to pretend he can be someone else when the lights go out, but Sansa is no longer willing to invest in such illusions. The fact that she goes on to have a sexually charged dream about Sandor reveals that above all else, what she's really attracted to is an honest man who challenges her to accept him as he is.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Just as long as Sandor and Loras don't fall in love......im good

[brashcandy]

What I see in Sansa's story now is that she still does want those things, but they are not currently available to her. Not that they will never be available to her. What I'm trying to say, and perhaps have been saying poorly, is that LF's tutelage will give her the tools to free herself to make her own decisions, her own alliances, and potentially her own marriage. I would much rather see Bran or Rickon in Winterfell to keep the Stark line intact, but I also really want Sansa to belong to herself.

I know this is a pretty accepted idea, but I've started to question it myself. Yes, there is some benefit to be gained from LF's mentorship, but will it honestly facilitate Sansa's freedom or turn her into another LF in a never ending cycle of game playing? I think the best option for Sansa is to depend on her qualities of compassion, kindness and empathy, which might do more to win true friends to her cause than money and scheming ever would.

[Lyanna Stark]

I’m sure that a more mature Sansa can very well go of her own accord over to Sandor over Loras, not because she feels rejected and alone that the handsome Knight of Flowers didn’t pay her any attention, but because of something (sorry, I can’t recall who) some days ago posted about the time in ASOS where Sansa comments that Sandor is like a dog and Loras a flower, thus very different from each other… Up until that post I had always viewed that line as Sansa forgetting everything the moment Loras came to escort her to his grandmother and so she sort of called Sandor ugly in a not so positive light. But that post was saying that actually Sansa made a very mature observation in realizing that a dog will always be faithful and will die for you. Yet flowers are easily crushed and only serve for decoration.

At that point though she was madly infatuated by Loras, and I am not sure how she meant that comment, probably to paint Loras in a flattering light. It still came off as quite ambiguous, as if she didn't really know how to compare the two men and even though she's fawning over Loras prettiness, it's an odd comparison since sure, who doesn't like flowers, but when the going gets tough you would rather have a dog with you than a flower, and you won't cry your eyes out when your rosebush dies, but you probably will when your faithful dog does. A flower is nice smelling and ornamental, but a dog is protection and companionship (albeit perhaps not as pretty).

[A...]

Just as long as Sandor and Loras don't fall in love......im good

The images this conjures up ... I died laughing.

On a more serious note, I've been catching up on the posts here and I must say the whole red flower symbolism is very intriguing, I don't really have very much to add apart from maybe the tiny, meaningless coincidence of Sansa wearing the wilted rose the day after the tourney in conjunction with Sandor wearing a green cloak the day after the tourney (which mirrors Sansa's green dress from the previous day) - but that is probably just me being obsessive. :blush:

I know this is a pretty accepted idea, but I've started to question it myself. Yes, there is some benefit to be gained from LF's mentorship, but will it honestly facilitate Sansa's freedom or turn her into another LF in a never ending cycle of game playing? I think the best option for Sansa is to depend on her qualities of compassion, kindness and empathy, which might do more to win true friends to her cause than money and scheming ever would.

As to this I completely agree. Nice as it would be to see LF defeated at his own game, I simply don't think anybody is good enough to realistically do this - definitely not a novice like Sansa (maybe Varys, though?). The only way I can ever see her besting him is by showing him how twisted his values have become and that not only through fear and exploitation can one achieve power. (this would connect to the whole 'ruling through love' theme)

[Kittykatknits]

I sincerely hope so, so long as it’s what Sansa wants. The marriage to Tyrion has a positive thing to it so far: it protects to a degree Sansa’s virginity, and I tend to think that there’s a reason why Sansa, while undergoing some pretty near rapes, has still managed to come out “intact”, and that the reason will be because she is meant to have a say in it and give it to a man of her choosing. This theory may be endangered by LF’s presence and by HtH, and by Sansa deciding, in the future that she does care about Winterfell and sacrificing her happiness for duty and the greater good, as Valkyrja said “It’s one thing if Sansa's tastes change of her own accord, but another if she is being forced to accept something else 'for her own good' or because it will serve the realm or some abstract idea of her family's honour (or LF's plans)”… But one can still only hope.

Sansa's maidenhood seems to be a plot point all by itself, doesn't it? As much as I don't like her marriage to Tyrion, I can appreciate how it is also protecting her in the Vale too. I really think the point is that Sansa is going to choose her partner. It doesn't make sense to me that it's being saved for her to give it to some stranger in an arranged marriage.

@Kittykatknits - - ok I'm back :)

As noted, I really love what you came up with on the symbolism related to Loras' red flower and Sansa's moonblood. First though, to your point about how Loras gives the favour over to Sandor - remember a while back we talked about the significance behind the cloak exchanges and I contended that Sandor didn't have the social authority to be able to actually place his cloak around Sansa's shoulder, but that the importance of her taking and wearing his cloak two times still remained?

Well your analysis on the events of the Hand's tourney is another example I believe of Sandor not having that access to Sansa, in this case he's not the gallant knight loved by the commons who can show up in flashy armour, but he nevertheless gains that opportunity through another person/an unexpected development. So whilst he's excluded on the social stage, GRRM establishes the connection between the two via symbolic actions: in this case, Loras naming Sandor as champion, in effect earning him not only the love of the commons, but the love of the fair maiden. It also means that Sandor was always destined to "replace" Loras Tyrell in Sansa's fantasies. Sandor has so far always needed an intermediary, someone to act as a go-between or an instigator for the intimacy between him and Sansa. After Loras, it was Tyrion and in the BB scene it's Sansa herself. This highlights the inherent difficulties of a relationship between the two, but it also suggests that it won't be impossible.

I'll talk about the red flower/moonblood in another post.

Great analysis! Good points on others acting as go-between with the final one being Sansa herself. My takeaway from all this is that it really highlights that the divide betwen the two of them will be social position, although I know the big complaint or concern that I hear is the age difference. The big takeaway for me is that Sansa is the final one to act as instigator, which could foretell that it will once again be her doing so when they meet again. She will probably also need to solve the problem of that social divide between the two of them.

Kittykatknits:

Short answer: yes :)

The red flower at the Hand's tourney represented (for Sansa) love and genuine affection. Sansa's red flower - aka her moonblood- symbolizes her development into womanhood, and her blossoming sexuality. I find your connection really revealing, Kittykatknits, because as we see in the text, both these "red flowers" only bloom around Sandor. When Loras gives Sansa the red rose it doesn't mean anything to him, but given that Sandor is the one who is eventually named champion, the flower is now aligned with him, not Loras, and based on what we know of how their relationship develops, it's fair to say that the flower retains its original signification, although Sansa doesn't realise it.

Cersei specifically asks her:

and Sansa's response is yes, perhaps foreshadowing the coming closeness that occurs between her and Sandor later on in the night. The red blooming flower might also explain why she responds to Sandor in such a mature, almost womanly manner after his outburst of anger, and of course could relate to the sexual tension/danger that infuses that meeting.

Loved this post too!! Earlier in this post, I talked about Sansa's maidenhood in a response to Caro99, you are really expanding on this idea her but I think this is really another piece of foreshadowing between them.

[Kittykatknits]

What I see in Sansa's story now is that she still does want those things, but they are not currently available to her. Not that they will never be available to her. What I'm trying to say, and perhaps have been saying poorly, is that LF's tutelage will give her the tools to free herself to make her own decisions, her own alliances, and potentially her own marriage. I would much rather see Bran or Rickon in Winterfell to keep the Stark line intact, but I also really want Sansa to belong to herself.

I think Sansa need to be careful with LF, his tutelage seems to be a corrupting influence. As brashcandy points out, she has natural strengths to draw on and just needs to further develop them. I think the longer that she is with LF, the more he will pull her from what she already does naturally. The key is when and if Sansa figures that out. We saw in KL, that Sansa's natural skills won people over, Dontos and Sandor come to mind. There is also evidence that she had more respect and admiration at court then she believed, with even Tyrion commenting that she was quite good at it. I'm hoping these are the skills that she uses to play the game. LF uses people whereas Sansa follows Sandor's advice. She is very good at figuring out what people really want and giving it to them.

From what little I know of Bran and Rickon from ADWD neither of them are in a position to take Winterfell. Bran is stuck in a tree and Rickon is practically feral. The only Stark with the potential is Sansa, so if a Stark is going to do it, it will likely have to be her. I honestly don't see this series ending without the Starks returning to Winterfell and quite possibly sovereigns in the North. The series ending with the Seven Kingdoms being ruled just as it was when it started just seems so... boring?

Does WF really need to be retaken though? Actually, I think a Stark just appearing might come awfully close to doing the trick. The Bolton's secured their place through a fake Arya, Stannis wanted Jon in WF because he was Ned's son, and Manderly wants Rickon back. Heck, Manderly said he wants his liege lord back and we have many Northern bannermen fighting for "The Ned's little girl". I don't think this will be a problem. The battle for WF will be over and done with by the time the Stark kids reenter the story in the North. The real question is more about the rebuilding of WF and how to make that happen.

I certainly agree with you on this. I don't think she will ever be truly happy if she ends up as a Virgin Queen type, but I also don't think she will be truly happy if she abandons Winterfell. My happily ever after for Sansa is Bran or Rickon in Winterfell, Sansa as the true power behind the seat, and happily married. I think I may be reaching a bit too high for all that though.

Well, my theory is that the Starks will return to WF, with the exception of Bran. I could foresee Sansa acting in a regent role for Rickon until he comes of age. At some point though, he'll marry. Sansa is going to want a home of her own some day, I think. Actually, I've got my ideal endgame scenario but it's got quite a bit of a fan girl element to it.

[brashcandy]

I think Sansa need to be careful with LF, his tutelage seems to be a corrupting influence. As brashcandy points out, she has natural strengths to draw on and just needs to further develop them. I think the longer that she is with LF, the more he will pull her from what she already does naturally. The key is when and if Sansa figures that out. We saw in KL, that Sansa's natural skills won people over, Dontos and Sandor come to mind. There is also evidence that she had more respect and admiration at court then she believed, with even Tyrion commenting that she was quite good at it. I'm hoping these are the skills that she uses to play the game. LF uses people whereas Sansa follows Sandor's advice. She is very good at figuring out what people really want and giving it to them.

That's true. The difference between Sansa and LF is that Sansa figures out what people want in an effort to help them or make them feel better about themselves, whereas LF does it for exploitation. There are some tricks of the trade she can learn from LF, but ultimately I think her honourable qualities are going to win whatever game she needs to play. So far she's gotten both Mya Stone and Lothor Brune to open up to her, and that hasn't taken any scheming or lies. Lothor strikes me as the kind of man Sandor would have been had he not been damaged from an early age, so it's not surprising to see that Sansa can form an easy rapport with him.

[Caro99]

At that point though she was madly infatuated by Loras, and I am not sure how she meant that comment, probably to paint Loras in a flattering light. It still came off as quite ambiguous, as if she didn't really know how to compare the two men and even though she's fawning over Loras prettiness, it's an odd comparison since sure, who doesn't like flowers, but when the going gets tough you would rather have a dog with you than a flower, and you won't cry your eyes out when your rosebush dies, but you probably will when your faithful dog does. A flower is nice smelling and ornamental, but a dog is protection and companionship (albeit perhaps not as pretty).

accurate example with how we would react to your faithful dog dying.. i just hope that Sandor doesn't have to die in the end for Sansa if it can be avoided... i wonder if Loras is indeed disfigured by that rush attack in dragonstone and if he now looks more like sandor than his former self..?

Kitty:

My theory is that the Starks will return to WF, with the exception of Bran. I could foresee Sansa acting in a regent role for Rickon until he comes of age. At some point though, he'll marry. Sansa is going to want a home of her own some day, I think. Actually, I've got my ideal endgame scenario but it's got quite a bit of a fan girl element to it.

i agree with this, and i think i know at what fan girl theories you are hinting at, which would be nice indeed if they happened... And this way Sansa can rule and do it very good (and maybe some people who just don’t get her will finally like her when they see what a great job she is doing with WF) But since Sansa also craves for a family of her own ever since she was a little girl, that has to come to pass at one point...

Brash:

There are some tricks of the trade she can learn from LF, but ultimately I think her honourable qualities are going to win whatever game she needs to play.

Agree, her compassion and kindness and other good characteristics are what have allowed her to live this long where older and wiser men and women have failed. It wasn’t easy and it cost her a lot of pain and bruises and shattered dreams, so maybe and hopefully what LF’s teachings will do is teach Sansa how to survive even better, and with less cost to herself.

[Alissa]

I know this is a pretty accepted idea, but I've started to question it myself. Yes, there is some benefit to be gained from LF's mentorship, but will it honestly facilitate Sansa's freedom or turn her into another LF in a never ending cycle of game playing? I think the best option for Sansa is to depend on her qualities of compassion, kindness and empathy, which might do more to win true friends to her cause than money and scheming ever would.

I think Sansa need to be careful with LF, his tutelage seems to be a corrupting influence. As brashcandy points out, she has natural strengths to draw on and just needs to further develop them. I think the longer that she is with LF, the more he will pull her from what she already does naturally. The key is when and if Sansa figures that out. We saw in KL, that Sansa's natural skills won people over, Dontos and Sandor come to mind. There is also evidence that she had more respect and admiration at court then she believed, with even Tyrion commenting that she was quite good at it. I'm hoping these are the skills that she uses to play the game. LF uses people whereas Sansa follows Sandor's advice. She is very good at figuring out what people really want and giving it to them.

:agree:

I've just finished my first reread of Feast and what struck me in Sansa's chapters was the difference between when she's being herself and when she's pretending (to others as well as to herself) to be Alayne. Sansa is all about compassion, empathy, connecting with others, whereas Alayne seems to represent more her rational, intellectual side. It's not quite as clear-cut as this, but the tendency is there, as for example, when she thinks about the feast at the Gates of the Moon:

What would she do when the music began to play? It was a vexing question, to which her heart and head gave different answers, Sansa loved to dance, but Alayne ...

And Alayne already shows some signs of being less compassionate than Sansa:

Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.

I guess what becomes of her will largely depend on which part she comes to rely on more: her intellect or her instincts? All her best moments so far have been when she behaved out of instinct rather than rational thinking. As Alayne she learns to use her intellect more, which in itself is a good thing, and I do think she will need both skills in order to be happy or even in order to survive. However, if her "Alayne side" takes over and becomes the stronger of the two, Sansa may well turn into another LF. In this scenario I can also see her marrying for political reasons rather than love. I really hope it won't happen, but with GRRM, who knows.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

oh let's hope she doesn't become like Petyr and Littlefinger....some screwed up duo inhabiting the same body