Was Stannis going to Dragonstone to kill Vis/Dany; did he let them go?

[total1402]

hah...I love phrases like "you are aware" ....the condescension is strong in this one Obi-wan. But why yes I am aware, at the time that was why they selected Robert as a figurehead for the rebellion, that and because of Lyanna and his badass soldiering. But once the Targs were deposed and sent away in bitter exile then they have no greater claim to the throne than moonboy. The lords of Westeros pledged fealty to the Baratheons making them the new royal family, it's in the text I don't see how this is debatable. Now if Daenerys comes back and takes the iron throne with FIRE AND BLOOD.

No condecension at all, you do know it. By your logic the number of lords agreeing who is monarch is the only thing that matters. By that token, Renly had the most right and Stannis the least since nobody wants Stannis in the throne. Ergo, Stannis makes precisely the same argument Dany makes about lineage before worldly concerns like what sort of support you have. Also, thats not how dynastic succesion works. It is always by blood. If you look at the Stuarts, James the Seconds claim was only ignored because William Duke of Orange forced him to abdicate and him fleeing London was seen as a sign of this.Hence his heirs could not claim to be monarchs during the Hannoverian Succesion even though they had the strongest claim by blood. Without that, Parliament had no legal right to depose the monarch. The Targs never abdicated their claim. So, like Charles the Second, even though his father was executed, the line driven into exile that did not mean that did not have the claim to the English throne. What happened was that Oliver Cromwell abolished the monarchy entirely to avoid the legal fact that parliament had no authority to depose the Royal line. GRR Martin has based this universe on a medieval setting where rule is based upon blood; even if it was established by right of conquest. Dany has the best claim by blood derived from Aegon the Conquerer in the same sense that Charles the Second was descended from William the Conqueror. Stannis claim is based on blood, but it is an inferior claim in the same sense that the Hannoverians had an inferior claim to the Stuarts. Unlike the Hannoverians, they couldn't argue that Aerys had abdicated; therefore legally and by the internal logic of Westerosi society Dany is the legitimate ruler of Westeros.

[total1402]

Robert's claim to throne was because his grandmother was the daughter of Aegon V, not because of the bastard lineage. Once you take out Aerys, his children, and his grandchildren, Robert has the best claim to the throne.

Thanks for telling me that, but Dany is still alive as Aerys daughter, which is what I was saying. Plus the Beratheons only have descent through the female line if thats the case and can't therefor claim precedence over a female in the legitimate line.

[Wouter]

ETA: Wasn´t Stannis sent to Dragonstone to guard the Blackwater bay, so Robert was save in Kings Landing from Targaryen loyalist attacks by sea? I never thought he was sent to kill Viserys and the pregnant Rhaella.

Stannis was sent to take Dragonstone from the last remaining Targ loyalists, and presumably to capture the remaining Targs in the process. I don't think Stannis would have had a baby girl and a young boy killed (nor their mother), but he would probably have brought them to Robert in KL and Robert's stance on Targs is known. Moreover, guys like Tywin would advise him to kill them. Maybe Ned and possibly Jon Arryn could have dissuaded Robert to keep them alive as captives instead.

[LordBloodraven]

Stannis was going to capture the last Targs and deliver them to Robert.

[Mulled Wino]

Stannis was sent to take Dragonstone from the last remaining Targ loyalists, and presumably to capture the remaining Targs in the process. I don't think Stannis would have had a baby girl and a young boy killed (nor their mother), but he would probably have brought them to Robert in KL and Robert's stance on Targs is known. Moreover, guys like Tywin would advise him to kill them. Maybe Ned and possibly Jon Arryn could have dissuaded Robert to keep them alive as captives instead.

Great post.

This is textually on point. Thanks for not making baseless assumptions based on personal bias.

[Lykos]

@Mulled Wino, do we need a sarcasm font? I´m not certain. But Wouter would have earned himself one of my cherished likes, if he´d added: "in my opinion"

[Howlin' Howland]

Well I added a disclaimer distinguishing the present and the past.

Again, Ned wouldn't have let Robert do it.

You are aware that the Beratheons are only the royal family and not the Starks or Arryns because they were a bastard lineage under Aegon and technically had the closest claim among the usurpers. Renly notes that this is bull and everyone knows it but that was their line of reasoning. If military force and right of conquest were considered then Ned Stark would have been King and Robert probably wouldn't have said no. In other words the Beratheons claim is hypocritical because it rests on acknowledging the importance of Targ blood whilst at the same time arguing that the legit line or Blackfyres have less of a claim.

I always had the impression that Robert ended up king by default. Jon Arryn was too old (old + no heirs is really bad). Eddard rushed back to Winterfell instead of staying in King's Landing. And, reading between the lines, Eddard rushed away because he wanted to get Jon Snow out of King's Landing before people started asking who his mother was. Most people thought, even at the time, that Eddard would have made a better king. I think if there had been no Jon Snow, Eddard would have ended up with the throne.

[Kernest]

This is a complicated issue but let me start by saying that I don't think Stannis would have killed them.

He is a frighteningly just man whose orders were to capture Dragonstone, not kill women and children.

If the order to kill them came from Robert himself, he might have done it (I still doubt it), but I think he would have just captured them and brought them to KL. While Robert was pleased that the Lannisters killed Elia and her children, he would have never given that order himself.

In case Robert tells Stannis to kill women and children, even though they may be Targs, I could totally imagine Stannis saying "it's your own bloody business, so deal with it yourself."

[total1402]

This is a complicated issue but let me start by saying that I don't think Stannis would have killed them.

He is a frighteningly just man whose orders were to capture Dragonstone, not kill women and children.

If the order to kill them came from Robert himself, he might have done it (I still doubt it), but I think he would have just captured them and brought them to KL. While Robert was pleased that the Lannisters killed Elia and her children, he would have never given that order himself.

In case Robert tells Stannis to kill women and children, even though they may be Targs, I could totally imagine Stannis saying "it's your own bloody business, so deal with it yourself."

Yeah that makes sense. Stannis is a truly just man and he wouldn't have let Robbs wounded ego compromise that. Seriously, I know that Roberts funny in GoT, but his reason for wanting to kill a whole family is pretty sick and pathetic; unlike Ned who doesn't even want all the Targs dead despite what they did to his family for no reason.

[Mulled Wino]

@Mulled Wino, do we need a sarcasm font? I´m not certain. But Wouter would have earned himself one of my cherished likes, if he´d added: "in my opinion"

He got a like from me. At least this part was directly from the text "Stannis was sent to take Dragonstone from the last remaining Targ loyalists". Add that to the fact Stannis never said he's kill any kid but Joffrey and I think his powers of deduction are exquisite.

[jarl the climber]

My understanding of the scenario was that Viserys and his pregnant Mother fled to Dragonstone before Kings Landing fell, Viserys was the rightful KIng after Aerys and Rhaegar died. Their was a large Targaryean fleet at Dragonstone but it was destroyed by a huge storm the day Dany was born hence her Stormborn moniker. I'm not sure what the timeline is on this exactly. Once the the fleet got wrecked, Dragonstone was no longer a threat.

Stannis on the other hand was hemmed into Storms End til Ned releived him. After that Robert had him build a fleet to take Dragonstone. Of course Dragonstone had no hope of resisting with the fleet destroyed, and someone mentioned that the garrison had been bought off to hand over Viserys and Dany to Stannis when he arrived. Somehow Darry got the kids out of there. Stannis mentions that Robert blamed him for this and added that there was no way for him to stop this. IMO I don't think we have gotten the entire story about what happened here. I think that the murder of Elia and her kids shocked many people besides Ned and there was some sympathy to Viserys and Dany and that played some part in their escape. Stannis might have let them get away.

[Sevumar]

Stannis set out for Dragonstone to capture it as a symbolic political objective and the last major strategic objective held by the Targaryens. Taking Dragonstone would effectively erase Targaryen power from the map of Westeros. As a military man, it's most likely that Stannis thought he'd be taking the Targaryens into custody, not killing them on sight.

[total1402]

I think that the murder of Elia and her kids shocked many people besides Ned and there was some sympathy to Viserys and Dany and that played some part in their escape. Stannis might have let them get away.

Stannis and sympathy? That'd be a surprising twist I'll grant you, Dany gets to Westeros and finds out that Stannis, the last of the usurpers, saved her life. Turns out Stannis was a secret Targ sympathiser until Mel came and told him he was AA. I suppose he could have just figured they'd never be coming back so the question would never have to be ansawered. Given Vis being the beggar king that makes sense. He can live with his just honour intact knowing he let them go.

[PatrickStormborn]

If Stannis had got Viserys and Dany (Rhaella was dead by the time Stannis set sail), they would have been killed. Robert even tries to send assassins after them when he finds out that they escaped. Stannis would have known that he was delivering them to their graves.

[three-eyed monkey]

Stannis was ordered to take Dragonstone, the seat of house Targ and last remaining loyalist stronghold. I think this is a natural conclusion to the rebellion. Robert wanted every last Targ dead and sent his hired knives to Essos to hunt down Viserys and Dany, if Dany's recollection of years spent running from them is anything to go by. So whether Stannis would have killed them on sight or brought them back to Robert - IMO it would have been the later but only Stannis can confirm this for us - it would not have went well for Viserys and Dany either way. Had they not escaped, they would be dead.

[Sevumar]

If Stannis had got Viserys and Dany (Rhaella was dead by the time Stannis set sail), they would have been killed. Robert even tries to send assassins after them when he finds out that they escaped. Stannis would have known that he was delivering them to their graves.

Game strongly implies that no assassination attempts were made prior to Dany's marriage to Khal Drogo.

Robert wanted every last Targ dead and sent his hired knives to Essos to hunt down Viserys and Dany, if Dany's recollection of years spent running from them is anything to go by.

Robert did have an unnaturally strong hatred of Targaryens and a sickening desire to see them wiped out. However, Dany's "recollections" are the results of paranoid delusions fed to her by Viserys.

[total1402]

If Stannis had got Viserys and Dany (Rhaella was dead by the time Stannis set sail), they would have been killed. Robert even tries to send assassins after them when he finds out that they escaped. Stannis would have known that he was delivering them to their graves.

Is that really in keeping with Stannis's notion of justice? He says he was torn just at the notion of fighting Aerys and is he really going to be complicit in his brothers desire for personal vengence?

[jarl the climber]

Game strongly implies that no assassination attempts were made prior to Dany's marriage to Khal Drogo.

Robert did have an unnaturally strong hatred of Targaryens and a sickening desire to see them wiped out. However, Dany's "recollections" are the results of paranoid delusions fed to her by Viserys.

I agree with this. Jon Arryn opposed assasinating them and was probaly supported in this by Selmy and maybe even Stannis but we don't know that for sure. Of course things changed when Danys marriage allied the Targaryeans with Khal Drogo and his 40,000 screamers. The marriage was meant as an inducement to get Drogo to invade and the assasination attempt was not unjustified.

[PatrickStormborn]

Game strongly implies that no assassination attempts were made prior to Dany's marriage to Khal Drogo.

That's because Jon Arryn convinced Robert not to do so, hence why I said tried. However, Stannis would have delivered Viserys and Dany to Robert, so he would not have to try -- he'd just kill them.

[Sevumar]

That's because Jon Arryn convinced Robert not to do so, hence why I said tried. However, Stannis would have delivered Viserys and Dany to Robert, so he would not have to try -- he'd just kill them.

I don't think we can say that for certain. Stannis, for all his hardness, seems to understand that there is a line that decent people don't cross when it comes to killing children.