What one thing would you improve in the tv series in season 3 if you could!

[Jaime's Wench]

The in character nature of his escape attempt. The book plot involved Jaime swordfighting with armed guards of the opposing army and he didn't kill a Lannister.

That Jaime wasn't stupid. This time, he had time to think things through. He could have punched Alton who then would play dead. GRRM said in the video accompanying that episode on HBO that Jaime was a great commander.

The fact that Jaime overly identified with the Lannisters, that was his big character flaw that had been his undoing, he wouldn't have just casually killed one. And how are they going to react to what he did now? In the book, he told a white lie to spare the feelings of his aunt, he said Cleos (his book cousin, who he tried to protect) died bravely.

That he had been reflecting on his life while chained up all this time. We see it from the start in the first chapter of book three that takes place a day later, he's constantly going over things in his mind. We see the beginnings of his changes are not when his hand was cut off, but when he was cut off from the Lannisters (especially Cersei).

Messed up the significance of his "swear and swear" moment. He killed the king when he gave him the order to kill Tywin, pushed Bran out the window to save Cersei and the kids, and gave the order to kill Ned's men when Tyrion was falsely condemned for a punishable by death crime.

That was his whole defense in the quote:

Obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak... He's one by one making excuses for the wrongs he did. Killing his cousin does not fit in at all.

I agree with what you're saying totally.

In fact, I do think they're effed show!Jaime up quite a bit through the script and directing choices. Nikolaj does a fair job at playing him but there's so much that's subtly different from book to show that Jaime is now 'too villain' and it will take a lot to swing that around. Jaime was my favourite character by the end of Book 2 mainly thanks to the scene with Catelyn in the prison... If I had just watched the show, Tyrion would still be my hands down favourite.

[Jolene Brown]

The best part about Season 2 being over is that I never have to hear about the half baked, projected romance that does not exist between Sansa and the Hound ever again (seeing as they don't see or think about each other for the rest of the novels).

Are they in any kind of romantic context? If so, please provide the quote...

First of all, your original quote says nothing about a "romantic context." Second of all, yes. Third of all, with the Hound I meant more what he explicitly says to Arya, since we don't see his thoughts.

In ASOS, Hound talks about Sansa favorably as compared to Arya, saying that she gave him a song and was more polite or something like that. He also is upset when he hears about her marriage to Tyrion at the Inn, which I think (don't remember the sequencing) may be part of why he gets quite so blisteringly drunk at the Inn and ends up being injured so badly (in all fairness, he hardly needs a lot of reason to get drunk). He then, when being tended to by Arya, makes the very controversial statements about how he should have taken Sansa after Blackwater as he intended to (I think this means taken her with him, but not everyone agrees), and a couple other controversial things as well, which have been hotly debated on a gajillion threads.

In ASOS and/or AFFC (don't totally remember what goes where), Sansa remembers how the Hound supposedly kissed her after the Blackwater (he didn't) at least once or twice, wonders how he is doing with regard to Joffrey's death as he was Joffrey's sworn sword for years, has a dream about him as the person who comes to her wedding bed the night of her marriage, and refers to the dog as "you sad old Hound" which I think is more a reference to the Hound himself than the dog.

Again, that is merely off the top of my head. If you look for one of the copious threads in the book forum, I'm sure you can find more.

[Le Cygne]

Are they in any kind of romantic context? If so, please provide the quote...

I'd also love to hear anyone attempt to interpret the Hound's thoughts since he has no POV in the books.

There are so many links with so many quotes. It's in the books. The author himself said there's something there.

And you can't interpret a character's thoughts by what they say and do? Many books are written in the third person. And then there are plays. So their motivations are off limits for consideration? What about Shakespeare? Can we not imagine why Hamlet does things, by what he says and does? Sounds pretty boring if we don't go there, kind of like putting food in your mouth, but not tasting it.

ETA took out spoilers.

[King Tommen]

It's fine for the shippers to get together on this forum to obsess about this so-called relationship by extrapolating tiny little inconsequential passages. It's a forum for people who are nuts about the books so that's expected.

But to expect the show to indulge in something so inconsequential between characters that have nothing to do with each other anymore and who may very well never meet up again in the course of the series is silly.

[Jolene Brown]

It's fine for the shippers to get together on this forum to obsess about this so-called relationship by extrapolating tiny little inconsequential passages. It's a forum for people who are nuts about the books so that's expected.

But to expect the show to indulge in something so inconsequential between characters that have nothing to do with each other anymore and who may very well never meet up again in the course of the series is silly.

You yourself said they never thought or spoke about each other again in the course of the novels. We gave you ample demonstration that you were incorrect. That was the topic of conversation, not anyone's expectations of how the show will portray the relationship.

[King Tommen]

Sorry that I wasn't clear that I was referring to their relationship in a romantic sense, as opposed to never referencing each other again. Clearly there was a bond that existed between them while he was guarding her from Joffrey but to extrapolate that into some weird thing where they were going to end up together as a couple is just ridiculous.

The original post that I was responding to was stating that the show needed to make it clear that the two of them were continually thinking of each other which would be silly considering that they have nothing to do with each other outside of some extremely fleeting offhand mentions in the books.

[Jolene Brown]

You seriously don't think Sansa remembering the Hound KISSING her on multiple occasions and dreaming of him coming naked to her wedding bed is thinking of him in a romantic context? What WOULD be a romantic context then? None of those references I listed are offhand. His obsession with her is part of why he is so messed up in the Inn and ends up dying/nearly dying. She is the last thing he talks about when he is dying! He has told the Elder Brother about her once he got to the Quiet Isle as well. Those are not "fleeting offhand mentions." That's just crazy. I don't necessarily think they are going to get together or that they will necessarily see each other again in the show (I do think they will probably see each other again in the book), but you are just ignoring what the books themselves actually say.

[Le Cygne]

But to expect the show to indulge in something so inconsequential between characters that have nothing to do with each other anymore and who may very well never meet up again in the course of the series is silly.

The original post that I was responding to was stating that the show needed to make it clear that the two of them were continually thinking of each other which would be silly considering that they have nothing to do with each other outside of some extremely fleeting offhand mentions in the books.

It's a show that's adapting a book series (ASOIAF and more specifically next season, A Storm of Swords). And it's a key part of the motivations of the characters in both Sansa's chapters and Arya's chapters. There are explicit references on the parts of both characters about each other, throughout. If you think they were put there unintentionally by the author, or for no purpose, I respect your right to that opinion, but I don't share it.

My larger point was, I'd like to see the romances play out on screen the way they were in the books. I like the stories GRRM told.

ETA took out spoilers.

[King Tommen]

It's a show that's adapting a book series (ASOIAF and more specifically next season, A Storm of Swords). And it's a key part of the motivations of the characters in both Sansa's chapters and Arya's chapters. There are explicit references on the parts of both characters about each other, throughout. If you think they were put there unintentionally by the author, or for no purpose, I respect your right to that opinion, but I don't share it.

My larger point was, I'd like to see the romances play out on screen the way they were in the books. I like the stories GRRM told.

Again, it's your opinion that there's romance there, it's not a fact. And since we don't know how the books end up portraying this relationship to the end of the series (or whether they even bother to address it at all) then anything you are saying is more about your projections on this then anything based on fact.

It should be noted that Martin has discussed with the producers where he has his major characters end up in the series so they have a much better idea with where that relationship will be going than any of the people posting on this forum.

[protar]

Again, it's your opinion that there's romance there, it's not a fact. And since we don't know how the books end up portraying this relationship to the end of the series (or whether they even bother to address it at all) then anything you are saying is more about your projections on this then anything based on fact.

It should be noted that Martin has discussed with the producers where he has his major characters end up in the series so they have a much better idea with where that relationship will be going than any of the people posting on this forum.

You don't have to support the relationship or even think it will amount to anything, but to say there's nothing there is a little bit silly. There clearly is and Martin has said so himself apparently.

I don't really think that the fact Martin has spoken with D+D about character relationships is much of an indicator. They don't have any obligation to stick to the source materials and they've shown they're not afraid of making changes. I can certainly see them downplaying the Sansan stuff on the show if they were uncomfortable reading it.

[King Tommen]

You don't have to support the relationship or even think it will amount to anything, but to say there's nothing there is a little bit silly. There clearly is and Martin has said so himself apparently.

But is there enough there to bother trying to dramatize two characters secretly pining after each other while never interacting over a very large period of time (which is the request I'm addressing here)?

Unless you think there's going to be some kind of joyous reunion many seasons from now, there is absolutely no point in trying to maintain a connection between the two characters when so many other story points need to be covered off.

The statement that the offhand mentions in ASOS and AFFC of each other in any way motivate either the Hound or Sansa in their actions at that time is seriously stretching it. I can't see how Sansa remembering the Hound or the Hound telling Arya that he should have raped her sister when he had the chance do much to give us more insight into their characters.

I think the only thing of value in Sansa recalling the Hound is her realization that turning down the opportunity to get out of King's Landing because she didn't trust the person offering the chance was maybe not the best choice. It could help give the audience more insight into why she would be more willing to allow Dontos (book) /LF or Queen of Thorns (show) to call the shots this season. Notice that none of this has to do with any lingering feelings she may or may not have had for the creepy guy but about her not being so picky about who she's going to trust on account of her being in such a perilous position in King's Landing.

[protar]

Well personally yes, I believe that Sansa and the Hound will meet again and have some form of relationship. I just don't see Martin writing all that character interaction, especially things like the Unkiss and then never visiting it again.

[Le Cygne]

Again, it's your opinion that there's romance there, it's not a fact. And since we don't know how the books end up portraying this relationship to the end of the series (or whether they even bother to address it at all) then anything you are saying is more about your projections on this then anything based on fact.

It should be noted that Martin has discussed with the producers where he has his major characters end up in the series so they have a much better idea with where that relationship will be going than any of the people posting on this forum.

Projection, are you saying (definition I found) "to ascribe one's feelings, thoughts, or attitudes to others"?

I'm giving you examples of things that Sansa and Sandor, two characters in a work of fiction, are thinking, saying, and doing.

And forgive me if I'm mischaracterizing your response, but it seems like you are saying these things are "offhand" and "inconsequential".

Who is projecting?

It is my opinion (that's the only one I have) that these are romances. I'm giving examples why I believe that is so, based on the text. That's all I can do.

I want to see what was in the books, and let the viewers make up their minds. In other words, don't do what they did with Jaime last season, and just decide he's a monster and set out to show him that way. Show what was in the books and let the viewers decide.

ETA took out spoilers

[King Tommen]

Projection, are you saying (definition I found) "to ascribe one's feelings, thoughts, or attitudes to others"?

I'm giving you examples of things that Sansa and Sandor, two characters in a work of fiction, are thinking, saying, and doing.

And forgive me if I'm mischaracterizing your response, but it seems like you are saying these things are "offhand" and "inconsequential".

Who is projecting?

It is my opinion (that's the only one I have) that these are romances. I'm giving examples why I believe that is so, based on the text. That's all I can do.

I want to see what was in the books, and let the viewers make up their minds. In other words, don't do what they did with Jaime last season, and just decide he's a monster and set out to show him that way. Show what was in the books and let the viewers decide.

It's a visual medium, you can't "show what was in the books" unless you want in the head narration going on for 75% of the show. There are going to be changes that are dictated by this limitation as well as actor, budget and production limitations. There are also time limitations that dictate that they aren't going to be able to delve into every relationship that exists in the books to the degree that you'd like them to. Some of the changes that have been made and will be made will not even appear to be because of these reasons but in reality will be, it just won't be readily apparent without inside knowledge of what's going on with the day to day production.

Saying "I just want them to put everything in the books on the screen" is an unrealistic and unfair expectation.

And just so you know that you're not unique here: every single adaptation that has occurred from every popular piece of literature (regardless of the quality) endures these exact same complaints from the hardcore readership (an extremely small minority who tend to make the loudest noise now that the internet exists) because they can't get past that some of these aspects are not being portrayed the way they saw them unfolding in their head. It's the "can't see the forest for the trees" issue whereby the many, many positive aspects of the adaptation cannot be enjoyed because the individual is fixated on one or two choices that they don't agree with.

[Le Cygne]

Saying "I just want them to put everything in the books on the screen" is an unrealistic and unfair expectation.

Yes, I want to see the important character interactions. Not only can it be done, but it's been done many times before, and will be done many times again. That's what makes a good adaptation good. It's both realistic and fair to want, not to expect. I expect nothing.

[King Tommen]

Yes, I want to see the important character interactions. Not only can it be done, but it's been done many times before, and will be done many times again. That's what makes a good adaptation good. It's both realistic and fair to want, not to expect. I expect nothing.

Well I'd argue that when it comes to Sansa and the Hound, as a viewer you have been shown the important character interactions. What you are now asking is that even though they aren't even interacting anymore, that the show somehow portrays them thinking about each other constantly as you believe they do in the novels. As a dramatic choice, it's my opinion that this would be a fairly significant waste of time and if present, would be there purely to provide fanservice to the hardcore readers who believe that this romantic relationship exists.

[Le Cygne]

I'm saying they are thinking of each other, and GRRM is a good writer, therefore, it matters. In fact, so much so, that it spans books:

The Lion's Paw / Lion's Tooth business, on the other hand, is intentional. A small touch of the unreliable narrator. I was trying to establish that the memories of my viewpoint characters are not infallible. Sansa is simply remembering it wrong. A very minor thing (you are the only one to catch it to date), but it was meant to set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory. You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom... but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it's a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on.

http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/2999/

And what matters can and should be shown on screen in the adaptation. (Note: The author uses the word "important".)

[King Tommen]

I really feel like people who are holding on to such insignificant details and projecting a future relationship where none exists are setting themselves up for disappointment, that's all. George says that this misremembering will eventually mean something but he doesn't say what and that could be so many different things that hanging your hat on the fact that they're going to get involved romantically down the road seems more like grasping at straws than anything else.

[Le Cygne]

But nobody is saying that.

Here's a story. It's in the book that's being adapted this season. Here are some things that would be nice to see.

No hats.

[King Tommen]

But nobody is saying that.

Here's a story. It's in the book that's being adapted this season. Here are some things that would be nice to see.

No hats.

OK, but I feel like you care about it a little bit more than that.