Targaryen_Rubies Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 What would you have liked to have seen in Seasons 1 and 2 involving Tyrion that would have made him more grey? I think the tipping point for him in the books is when he murders Tywin and Shae and becomes an embittered drunk for the most of the next book. If he doesn't commit those actions on the show when it comes time, then I think you would have more of an argument.What about when Tyrion slaps Shae or the comment about how he's more interested about the parts between her legs? Those actions amongst all the good ones could provide enough gray to Tyrion's character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timebean Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 About Brienne...even though I realize it is an unpopular opinion, I really like the way the show has handled Brienne. I believe making her a badass fighter (NOT bloodthirsty...that is a completely incorrect adjective...in fact, she fights more out of instinct than bloodthirst) is how they plan to have her begin earning Jaime's respect in the series. Did you see the look on his face after she kills the Stark men? The beginnings of admiration. Subtleties are harder to get across on film than in books, and I think the show folks are trying to show that Jaime respects her for being a warrior, which will in turn allow the audience to start liking Jaime (ie,at least he isn't sexist). Brienne's chapters were my least favorite in my first reading. However, she did grow on me in the second read-thru. By now I love her as much as Duncan the Tall. For a TV show audience, I think they wanted to minimize the initial "ugg...Brienne again" and develop the character in a way that is more INITIALLY exciting before giving her more character depth (at least that is what I hope they are doing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Martell Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 About Brienne...even though I realize it is an unpopular opinion, I really like the way the show has handled Brienne. I believe making her a badass fighter (NOT bloodthirsty...that is a completely incorrect adjective...in fact, she fights more out of instinct than bloodthirst) is how they plan to have her begin earning Jaime's respect in the series. Did you see the look on his face after she kills the Stark men? The beginnings of admiration. Subtleties are harder to get across on film than in books, and I think the show folks are trying to show that Jaime respects her for being a warrior, which will in turn allow the audience to start liking Jaime (ie,at least he isn't sexist).I think show audience (including me before I started reading) generally hate Jaime much less than the book audience (prior to SoS). It's the way they handle characters on TV/movies. Archetypes matter much more in TV/movies, because A) characters appear much less since you have a limited time and B) you can't read their thoughts. When you watch the first season, you never really feel Jaime is evil, because he's not following the evil archetype, except in the first episode. And with scenes like war stories or Tywin cutting meat some people even liked him. I didn't like him, but I knew there was more to him than I know, and that one day they'll reveal that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Pono Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 I think show audience (including me before I started reading) generally hate Jaime much less than the book audience (prior to SoS). It's the way they handle characters on TV/movies. Archetypes matter much more in TV/movies, because A) characters appear much less since you have a limited time and B) you can't read their thoughts. When you watch the first season, you never really feel Jaime is evil, because he's not following the evil archetype, except in the first episode. And with scenes like war stories or Tywin cutting meat some people even liked him. I didn't like him, but I knew there was more to him than I know, and that one day they'll reveal that.Interesting, but you're leaving out one of the key "evil" Jaime TV scenes. A few book purists (including a good friend of mine) howled in protest when Jaime strangled his cousin in Season 2 (correction: beat his cousin to death--I'm not sure which is more evil, beating or strangulation). They were like book Jaime would NEVER do that. I myself am not so sure that's even true.What do you think non-readers thought of that scene as it affects Jaime's likeability?I thought it was a bold and correct choice by the show's creators. It shows that Jaime is considered one of the most dangerous men in Westeros for a reason, and it really lays bare his amorality, which he will have to confront after his life-changing event in Season 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Martell Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 Interesting, but you're leaving out one of the key "evil" Jaime TV scenes. A few book purists (including a good friend of mine) howled in protest when Jaime strangled his cousin in Season 2. They were like book Jaime would NEVER do that. I myself am not so sure that's even true.What do you think non-readers thought of that scene as it affects Jaime's likeability?I thought it was a bold and correct choice by the show's creators. It shows that Jaime is considered one of the most dangerous men in Westeros for a reason, and it really lays bare his amorality, which he will have to confront after his life-changing event in Season 3.They've shown the evil scenes before the good scenes. From the first episode they give us the impression that he's evil, then throughout season 1 you start realizing that there's more to him than that. I think the entire point of killing his cousin was the other scene with Catelyn when he talks about vows. That scenes shows that although what he did was bad, he's actually logical. And that's when you start thinking, and you get an even stronger feeling that there's much more to Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timebean Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 The show paints him as a "jerk" more often than "evil". The way he pushes up on Ned at the feast, the way he makes fun of Jon in the yard, and my favorite..."they can write a ballad about it...the war for Cersie's..." (hahaha - my boyfriend laughed and spouted soda out of his nose when he said that). Anyway, in terms of likeability, folks tend to love the jerk. Think of 'House' or the new BBC 'Sherlock' show. Jerks/anti-social badasses play really well on TV...Plus, he is pretty hot... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 I think the non-reading audience will start feeling at least ambiguously about Jaime after the SAPPHIRES! scene, if not start to like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolene Brown Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 I went back and re-watched the Jaime/Jon scene a few weeks ago b/c someone brought it up and I was curious about it (since I wonder if book Jaime's storyline is heading north) - I actually thought he was sincerely trying to give Jon good advice, despite his sardonic tone. I mean, who knows better the flaws of an institution that asks you to serve for life and doesn't leave a lot of room for compromise than Jaime? I didn't watch the whole episode though, so maybe it would have felt different in context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newstar Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 The show paints him as a "jerk" more often than "evil". The way he pushes up on Ned at the feast, the way he makes fun of Jon in the yard, and my favorite..."they can write a ballad about it...the war for Cersie's..." (hahaha - my boyfriend laughed and spouted soda out of his nose when he said that). Anyway, in terms of likeability, folks tend to love the jerk. Think of 'House' or the new BBC 'Sherlock' show. Jerks/anti-social badasses play really well on TV...Plus, he is pretty hot... ;)Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer was blond, great-looking, downright evil and fairly unapologetic about it for the first few seasons, and had all the great lines, and he was so popular that he pretty much ate the show, and Jaime reminds me a lot of Spike, so yeah, I can see Jaime being a pretty popular character, no matter what kind of horrible things he does. Also in the hot/blond/evil/snarky/fan favourite category, Julian Sark from Alias (played by David Anders, who has coincidentally gone on record saying that he'd love to be on GoT). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timebean Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 I went back and re-watched the Jaime/Jon scene a few weeks ago b/c someone brought it up and I was curious about it (since I wonder if book Jaime's storyline is heading north) - I actually thought he was sincerely trying to give Jon good advice, despite his sardonic tone. I mean, who knows better the flaws of an institution that asks you to serve for life and doesn't leave a lot of room for compromise than Jaime? I didn't watch the whole episode though, so maybe it would have felt different in context.Good point! And having his advice laced with bitterness and a bit of bullying works well for the character they are building in the show... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen of Whores Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 What I want improved for season 3 is something season 1 did brilliantly, and that is having the writers and directors not be inflicted with ADD, like they are constantly worried that we have an attention span of two minutes. Those quiet, calm conversations in season 1, my favorites being Jaime and Tywin, Robert and Cersei, and Robert, Jaime and Barristan, really gave the show some of the depth the books naturally have.Plus, they also really should just drop some characters for an episode or two, and focus more closely on other characters storylines. For example, in season 1, Jon is completely off the screen for all of episodes 5 and 6, with Dany being away all of 5 as well, and the show creators favorite character Tyrion being not shown in episode 7 at all either. None of this harmed the story progression. Episode 5 of season 1 was pretty much a King's Landing and Vale centered episode, with Ned and Catelyn being the main focus. Episode 5 just happened to be in my opinion one of the best episodes in the whole series. And also, even though it seems unlikely, if they have Tyrion not murder Shae, I will completely stop watching the show. Such an emotional and character-changing moment to be tampered with.In conclusion, I really just prefer season 1's relaxed, steady pacing than season 2's rushed, disjointed feeling. Hoping season 3 will take after season 1 more. And is it just me, or does season 2 have a completely different lighting and atmosphere setup than season 1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Things that were in the book, but not the show:The symmetry of the rescue attempts (Jaime and Tyrion rescuing each other). In the book, Tyrion came up with a typical Tyrion plan to rescue Jaime, and it would have been nice to see that on screen, it could have been adapted for the show.The in character nature of his escape attempt. The book plot involved Jaime swordfighting with armed guards of the opposing army and he didn't kill a Lannister.That Jaime wasn't stupid. This time, he had time to think things through. He could have punched Alton who then would play dead. GRRM said in the video accompanying that episode on HBO that Jaime was a great commander.The fact that Jaime overly identified with the Lannisters, that was his big character flaw that had been his undoing, he wouldn't have just casually killed one. And how are they going to react to what he did now? In the book, he told a white lie to spare the feelings of his aunt, he said Cleos (his book cousin, who he tried to protect) died bravely.That he had been reflecting on his life while chained up all this time. We see it from the start in the first chapter of book three that takes place a day later, he's constantly going over things in his mind. We see the beginnings of his changes are not when his hand was cut off, but when he was cut off from the Lannisters (especially Cersei).Messed up the significance of his "swear and swear" moment. He killed the king when he gave him the order to kill Tywin, pushed Bran out the window to save Cersei and the kids, and gave the order to kill Ned's men when Tyrion was falsely condemned for a punishable by death crime.That was his whole defense in the quote:"So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other."Obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak... He's one by one making excuses for the wrongs he did. Killing his cousin does not fit in at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newstar Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 In conclusion, I really just prefer season 1's relaxed, steady pacing than season 2's rushed, disjointed feeling. Hoping season 3 will take after season 1 more.Given all the leftover plots from ACOK that need to be dealt with in Season 3 (Reeds, for starters), and all the incident crammed into ASOS, even if the book is split into two seasons...don't bet on it.The problem with the TV show is that because of all the different location parallel plots (Wall/Essos/King's Landing/Riverlands/Harrenhal/and so on), when filmed, ASOIAF starts to look like a soap opera. I don't mean a soap opera in the sense of melodramatic or whatever, I mean that on a standard soap opera, in any given episode there will be five or six parallels plots advanced forward a little bit (X flirts with Y, Z buys a pregnancy test, etc. etc.). So any given character in any given episode might only have, say, four minutes of screentime. This was avoided in Season 1 because, I think, the characters weren't as scattered. After Season 1, it's pretty much unavoidable, thus the rushed and disjointed feeling. Look at how many "fronts" there will be in Season 3, and this is just off the top of my head:Jaime and Brienne on the road/Bran and the Reeds/Jon beyond the Wall/King's Landing (and even King's Landing will involve separate plots with the Tyrells and the Lannisters)/the Eyrie (Kate Dickie is in Season 3)/Essos/Theon and Ramsay at Winterfell/Robb and Cat in the Riverlands...And that's just off the top of my head!And is it just me, or does season 2 have a completely different lighting and atmosphere setup than season 1?It does seem to have a different visual feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kessell Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Something not plot related: I would stop having the camera switch from face to face every second during every conversation (mainly looking at you David Nutter) and instead hold longer on the shots showing multiple participants clearly. The odd close up conveying plenty of emotion is fine, but I'm starting to find it more anoying that the camera keeps jumping around from face to face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew May Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 don't mess up any major moments, still shaking in shock as to how bad the house of the undying was, plenty coming in the next season (or two) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Sansa and Sandor: Make it clear she's thinking about him, and he's thinking about her. Make it clear (again, like in Blackwater) he would never hurt her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Martell Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Sansa and Sandor: Make it clear she's thinking about him, and he's thinking about her. Make it clear (again, like in Blackwater) he would never hurt her.But Sansa wasn't thinking about him that much anyway. That's not following the books; that's just satisfying SanSan fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tommen Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 The best part about Season 2 being over is that I never have to hear about the half baked, projected romance that does not exist between Sansa and the Hound ever again (seeing as they don't see or think about each other for the rest of the novels).The show just confirmed what everyone with half a brain who read the books already knew. The relationship was purely a protector/child one that had no roots in romance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolene Brown Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 The best part about Season 2 being over is that I never have to hear about the half baked, projected romance that does not exist between Sansa and the Hound ever again (seeing as they don't see or think about each other for the rest of the novels).You might want to re-read the novels again. I can think of at least 3 examples of where they think about each other in ASOS or AFFC just off the top of my head, and I'm pretty sure there are several more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tommen Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 You might want to re-read the novels again. I can think of at least 3 examples of where they think about each other in ASOS or AFFC just off the top of my head, and I'm pretty sure there are several more.Are they in any kind of romantic context? If so, please provide the quote...I'd also love to hear anyone attempt to interpret the Hound's thoughts since he has no POV in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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