The lie of misplaced self-righteousness

[A bowl of brown]

Well she is at least alive which she probably wouldn't be with LF.

That said he is as selfish as anyone in Westeros, he's just more honest about it.

[TepidHands]

Well she is at least alive which she probably wouldn't be with LF.

LF pimped her out for years in one of his whorehouses, then sold her to the Boltons! THE BOLTONS!

[David C. Hunter]

Just to be clear though, I do not believe I said that every character in ASOIAF is motivated by greed, I just meant that there are many prominent characters that hide behind ideals, but deep down they do not really follow those ideals and instead are motivated by greed.

[David C. Hunter]

Well she is at least alive which she probably wouldn't be with LF.

That said he is as selfish as anyone in Westeros, he's just more honest about it.

Well thats what I mean. EVERYONE thinks Littlefinger is a deceitful little prick, yet he keeps getting rewarded for his actions. The Lannisters are still clueless about him, but its not as if he is trying to come across as an honest man.

Put it like this....The Lords of the Vale know that Littlefinger is full of shit, Littlefinger knows that they know that. He isn't trying to convince them that he means well, all he is doing is blackmailing them and buying them off. Littlefinger never once says "I am a honest man" unless he said it sarcastically to Sansa. He tells Ned Stark to not trust him and then has the gall to look surprised with Littlefinger betrays him. Its not a secret. Of course Littlefinger is just as greedy, Im just saying don't hide behind some stupid ideal that we all know you dont really believe in.

[David C. Hunter]

She tells Xaro her motivations in ADWD: she has been sold as a slave herself, she knows it is wrong. Dany may not have the booksmarts or the formal education to explain her motivations logically, but I don't think a lot of people will disagree with her on that it is wrong, plain and simple.

No Doubt, but look at it like this. Slavery is wrong and Dany does have a soft spot for it for obvious reasons, BUT! If her true goal was to free the slaves I believe that she would have put a little more thought into before unleashing the fire. I mean she had no plans for food, jobs, etc. She just burned down the city and it felt like a rush, as if she were looking past this event and that it was just a stepping stone. Does she care for the slaves? Sure. Are they in her top 3 priorities? No, at least not IMO and honestly burning down three cities and crippling an economy built on slavery to the extent that said free slaves are going back into slavery isn't worth it, especially when you have no interest to even learn about their culture to make it better.

[Mulled Wino]

Well thats what I mean. EVERYONE thinks Littlefinger is a deceitful little prick, yet he keeps getting rewarded for his actions. The Lannisters are still clueless about him, but its not as if he is trying to come across as an honest man.

Put it like this....The Lords of the Vale know that Littlefinger is full of shit, Littlefinger knows that they know that. He isn't trying to convince them that he means well, all he is doing is blackmailing them and buying them off. Littlefinger never once says "I am a honest man" unless he said it sarcastically to Sansa. He tells Ned Stark to not trust him and then has the gall to look surprised with Littlefinger betrays him. Its not a secret. Of course Littlefinger is just as greedy, Im just saying don't hide behind some stupid ideal that we all know you dont really believe in.

Why be completely honest? The king would chop Varys's head off if he said, "Im trying to get a Targ back on the throne, just so you know"...

[Lyanna Stark]

No Doubt, but look at it like this. Slavery is wrong and Dany does have a soft spot for it for obvious reasons, BUT! If her true goal was to free the slaves I believe that she would have put a little more thought into before unleashing the fire. I mean she had no plans for food, jobs, etc. She just burned down the city and it felt like a rush, as if she were looking past this event and that it was just a stepping stone. Does she care for the slaves? Sure. Are they in her top 3 priorities? No, at least not IMO and honestly burning down three cities and crippling an economy built on slavery to the extent that said free slaves are going back into slavery isn't worth it, especially when you have no interest to even learn about their culture to make it better.

Have you read ADWD? Dany marries against her will since she thinks "A Queen belongs to her people". So sure, her top three priorities are not to try and do what she can for her people. I can only recommend a trip to the Learning to Lead thread on Dany and Jon to see that realistically, Dany has very little chance of sorting out the clusterfuck that is Meereen, even had she been a cross between Tywin Lannister, Rhaegar Targaryen and Littlefinger.

Dany wanted to free the slaves, so she did. She didn't burn the crops, she didn't start the slave trade in the first place.

I also really have to question anyone who thinks that it would have been better for Dany to leave the slavers to their slavery and move on without caring about it.

[kg1982]

Littlefinger is truthful, but he is definitely not selfless.

[danm_999]

She tells Xaro her motivations in ADWD: she has been sold as a slave herself, she knows it is wrong. Dany may not have the booksmarts or the formal education to explain her motivations logically, but I don't think a lot of people will disagree with her on that it is wrong, plain and simple.

See, I disagree, and feel Daenerys is completely guilty of this "misplaced self righteousness" regarding the slavery issue. Daenerys whole bit about how she knows what it's like to be a slave is crap, she doesn't.

Ok, woah, that statement obviously requires some context. Daenerys doesn't know what it's like to be a slave?! She got sold to Khal Drogo by Viserys after all! She was treated like property, had no agency, and was a victim of marital rape.

From a 21st century perspective, all completely true. But that's not the type of slavery Daenerys rails against. Daenerys is not really fighting against gender inequality, or against the institution of arranged political marriages (in Meereen if anything, she vindicates it), or the subjugation of women by men, she's pretending her experience in being sold to Khal Drogo is in any way analogous to what most slaves go through. But Daenerys' experience makes her no more a slave than Catelyn, Cersei, Lysa, Sansa or Jeyne Poole, or any hundreds of the women of Westeros who are bound by fathers, brothers or uncles into patriarchal and often cruel political alliances.

No, the type of slavery Daenerys rails against is Eastern slavery, of which she is utterly, hopelessly ignorant of. Eastern slaves live to work. They get no pay, no status, no rights. Even at the nadir of her freedom, Daenerys was being showered as a khaleesi, being waited upon by several handmaidens and being showered with gifts of unimaginable value. She never had to participate in manual labour, never faced a master's discipline, and never understood bondage. Just like the Hound pointed out to Sansa, she lived in a gilded cage. But that is not what the slavery she opposes looks like.

In fact, in the entire series, we only have two point of view characters who have been actual, honest to goodness, Eastern slaves. Only two characters whose thoughts, rather than words, on what it's like to be a slave, we actually get. The first is Melisandre, or Melanie of Lot 7. From what we know about the rhetoric of the Red Priests, they consider themselves slaves to Rh'llor, so Melisandre's backstory becomes a little more transparent; she was presumably bought by the Red Temple in Asshai, and was made into a slave of Rh'llor. Apparently, this isn't something she's too candid about in Westeros (for obvious reasons) but she seems to have a strong institutional loyalty to the purpose of her enslavement.

The second true slave is Tyrion. Here are his views on what it feels like to be a slave:

Ghazdor’s collar,” the old man boasted. “Known him since we was born. I’m almost like a brother to him. Slaves like you, sweepings out of Astapor and Yunkai, you whine about being free, but I wouldn’t give the dragon queen my collar if she offered to suck my cock for it. Man has the right master, that’s better.”

Tyrion did not dispute him. The most insidious thing about bondage was how easy it was to grow accustomed to it. The life of most slaves was not all that different from the life of a serving man at Casterly Rock, it seemed to him. True, some slaveowners and their overseers were brutal and cruel, but the same was true of some Westerosi lords and their stewards and bailiffs. Most of the Yunkai’i treated their chattels decently enough, so long as they did their jobs and caused no trouble … and this old man in his rusted collar, with his fierce loyalty to Lord Wobblecheeks, his owner, was not at all atypical.

It reminds me of a line from V for Vendetta;

Happiness is a prison, Evey. Happiness is the most insidious prison of all.

Of course, I'm not justifying slavery as good. I honestly believe it's a vile institution. I honestly believe Daenerys dream goal, the elimination of slavery, is a noble undertaking (though I thoroughly disagree with the manner in which she attempts to fix the problem). What I reject, wholeheartedly, is her pretension that she has any idea of what it's like to be one of these people she thinks she's saving, or that her actions are in the common good based on an imaginary relationship she thinks she has with people who've been forced to provide manual labour, or beaten, or raped their entire lives. She truly thinks she understands the plight of the slave. She doesn't.

[Gandalf the Grey]

Dany wanted to free the slaves, so she did. She didn't burn the crops, she didn't start the slave trade in the first place.

I also really have to question anyone who thinks that it would have been better for Dany to leave the slavers to their slavery and move on without caring about it.

Well it depends if you look at what is morally right, or the outcome. So far it seems like most of the slaves are worse than they were before (plague, starvation) or have had to sell themselves into slavery (roughly where they were before). I'm sure many are still very happy with freedom and such. I think her decision to free the slaves was morally right, but poorly handled. Through no real fault of her own, she didn't have the means to maintain the population of freed slaves.

Dany has very little chance of sorting out the clusterfuck that is Meereen, even had she been a cross between Tywin Lannister, Rhaegar Targaryen and Littlefinger.

Opening the fighting pits would probably have been a good start.

We're not saying slavery is good. I believe that the good intentions of freeing the slaves may have still possibly had an overall negative impact for the newly freed men.

[David C. Hunter]

Have you read ADWD? Dany marries against her will since she thinks "A Queen belongs to her people". So sure, her top three priorities are not to try and do what she can for her people. I can only recommend a trip to the Learning to Lead thread on Dany and Jon to see that realistically, Dany has very little chance of sorting out the clusterfuck that is Meereen, even had she been a cross between Tywin Lannister, Rhaegar Targaryen and Littlefinger.

Dany wanted to free the slaves, so she did. She didn't burn the crops, she didn't start the slave trade in the first place.

I also really have to question anyone who thinks that it would have been better for Dany to leave the slavers to their slavery and move on without caring about it.

The cluster fuck you are referring to was caused by Dany sacking three cities, not slavery. Dany gets married because she literally has no choice, not because the 'Queen belongs to her people' which is apart of the misplace self righteousness that I am talking about. Do you think she means it when she says that? Personally, I think she is full of shit, doesn't know what she is doing and is just saying that because everything she knows about what a Queen should do or say was in a fantasy book(Made that part up but my point remains valid). Its like she is trying to convince herself of the lie. Its PR work

You can question me all you like dear. Well looking back on the entire thing was it worth it? The freed slaves are dying of starvation, dying of disease, are essentially homeless and many of them are going back to being slaves, so....what is it exactly that Dany saved? (Quoted MMD)

To be perfectly honest, unbiased and not looking at it with a modern perspective the slaves were honestly better off before the Dragon Lady came.

I truly believe that and evidently they believed it to, which is why they are going back to slavery. It is Dany's fault because if you are bold enough to burn down three cities then you should at least be competent enough to develop a plan afterwards on how to deal with them. You have to take responsibility in your actions, you cannot just sack three cities because you disagree with their culture. How long have their been slaves in Salver's Bay? Thousands of years? Which is technically thanks to her Valyrian ancestors she always trying to live up to.

Thats how ALOT of people in this board think about her situation...

Yup, including me

[A bowl of brown]

Well her actions however noble their intent have led to starvation, a ruined economy, a plague and war. Slavery is abhorrent but when she broke the slave trade she essentially signed the death warrant of the vast majority of the people she freed.

What's going to happen to the freed people when she leaves for Westeros. If she really wanted to end slavery she should be prepared to stay in Mereen for a good while yet.

If you want to argue that its better to die free than live a slave I wont argue as I (thankfully) have no experience of being a slave so it would be presumptious to argue.

[Mulled Wino]

Punishing the slavers then just leaving them to pick up the pieces and assuming that she's done her job is a very poor excuse for "rescuing slaves" and/or "eliminating slavery".

[Lyanna Stark]

You can question me all you like dear.

Please do not refer to me as "dear". Thank you.

I'm also continuously amazed by how people can excuse slavery as the better alternative. It's really disturbing.

The one who is selling himself back to slavery is one person, and we get told that from Xaro, who is arguing with Dany trying to get her to reinstate slavery. I think we should take anything he says with more than a grain of salt.

Well her actions however noble their intent have led to starvation, a ruined economy, a plague and war. Slavery is abhorrent but when she broke the slave trade she essentially signed the death warrant of the vast majority of the people she freed.

No offence, but I feel this is about on the level of accusing Cat for the War of the Five Kings.

But you know, don't let me disturb you in your celebration of slavery. :stillsick:

[Mulled Wino]

I'm also continuously amazed by how people can excuse slavery as the better alternative. It's really disturbing.

To use this argument, Dany would have had to put an end to slavery. All she did was kill some slavers and slaves and support Dothraki who were an integral cog in the slave trade. She did nothing lasting.

[A bowl of brown]

I am in no way defending slavery. My point is that she went blindly into trying to end it without any plan of what to do to afterwards which is leading to mass death.

To truly end it she needs to stay there, possibly permanently, defeat the armies opposing her, possibly kill the remaining noble houses left in Mereen and completely rebuild the entire system from scratch. She doesn't seem to have the inclination to do this which I believe will lead to the death or reenslavement of nearly all those she freed.

What do you think will happen to them when she leaves for Westeros?

And at no point have I suggested that Cat was responsible for the war of the 5 kings.

[David C. Hunter]

I am in no way defending slavery. My point is that she went blindly into trying to end it without any plan of what to do to afterwards which is leading to mass death.

To truly end it she needs to stay there, possibly permanently, defeat the armies opposing her, possibly kill the remaining noble houses left in Mereen and completely rebuild the entire system from scratch. She doesn't seem to have the inclination to do this which I believe will lead to the death or reenslavement of nearly all those she freed.

What do you think will happen to them when she leaves for Westeros?

And at no point have I suggested that Cat was responsible for the war of the 5 kings.

When she leaves for Westeros everything will go back to the way things were before she was there, unless she stays there and truly tries to change things, but we both know that won't happen

[Kittyhat]

Really I think he questioned the motivations.

I actually thought that Dany was trying to do the right thing. Even if she was a bit hypocritical, she was still trying to do what she thought was best for what she saw as her people.

It's there in the text in black and white that she was. We're privy to her thoughts, as she's a PoV character. I don't merely disagree with the OP; he's actually objectively wrong.

How effective you thought she was is another matter. I think people way underestimate the difficulty of trying to do what she's doing and also way overestimate themselves by comparison. Frankly, most people aren't half as smart as they think they are. Silly suggestions like that she should have somehow planned it all out first (How? With what time available? Plan what, exactly?) just go to show that; this isn't a Batman comic where the protagonist can somehow plan for every contingency and in very short order. Realistically, things in this world get done by people who act, not people who sit around thinking about what it would be like to act, and in any case, "no plan survives contact with the enemy."

But that's another discussion.

Her motives, however, cannot actually be called into question. We're privy to her thoughts.

[mormont]

[mod] I seem to have to say this a lot:

Stay on topic. The topic is not your opinion of other boarders. Play nice and don't make things personal. OK?

[/mod]

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

Giving them a taste of freedom is cruel.