Odds for Tyrion to be King and Sansa to be his Queen?

[Kittykatknits]

Yeah i am relatively new to the fandom.

Reminds me of the whole "Ginny Weasley is a slut" thing in the Harry Potter fandom.

Lots of people vilify Dany for sleeping with Daario and get upset with Sansa for not appreciating Tyrion. I'm not at all familiar with the Harry Potter fandom so dunno if it is similar or not.

[Thunderfist]

Lots of people vilify Dany for sleeping with Daario and get upset with Sansa for not appreciating Tyrion. I'm not at all familiar with the Harry Potter fandom so dunno if it is similar or not.

I think that alot of people dislike Sansa for not sleeping with Harry Potter, or something ...

[Naathi Prince]

:shocked:

Seriously? Wow i do have a lot to learn...(thats why im here!)

lol yea a lot of people hate Dany. Its cool tho, welcome to the board, I'm fairly new as well.

Ha, Tyrion is no better, to be sure, in that regard. And to be fair, he didn't choose Sansa, she was forced on him. Tyrion has a weakness for the flesh, and is desperate for a woman to accept him as he is and parades around with whores a-many in a desperate attempt to soothe his ego. Dany has a weakness for the flesh, and a young woman's regards for a sharp wit, handsome face, and bedtime skills.

Let me repeat, Dany and Sansa are not bad people, and Dany and women in general are not sluts for sleeping with people they find attractive. Just giving evidence for why she ain't gonna bed Tyrion, and neither is Sansa. Please limit your discussion to the context of what I am saying and not the more generalized 'Dany is a nasty slut' discussion.

His father also offered to marry Sansa to Lancel or one of his younger more suitable for Sansa cousins as well. Tyrion wanted Sansa and he wanted Winterfell.

Saying "dany has a weakness for flesh" is calling her a nasty slut. She's a widow with one post-marital relationship. We're bringing up the more general discussion because you invited with statements like that.

[CBroome1979]

Brashcandy - True...but to sleep with people you find physically attractive ONLY on that basis...

Liking someone is not the same as thinking they are potential marriage partners.

Daario is unappealing to many readers, but Dany finds him quite attractive from the start.

And for those of you who balk at Tyrion for desiring a 12-13 year old...in the context of the books it's quite natural for people to consummate marriages at that age. How old was Lysa when Jon Arryn crawled on top of her? And Sansa offers no resistance. He chooses to not do anything based on his moral beliefs. Guess I'm getting off topic.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Tyrion is a Lannister. Why should he apologize for being one? If Tyrion was unkind to Sansa then Tywin was no less unkind to Tyrion, and yet Tywin's actions are almost completely ignored and Tyrion is villified for daring to marry.

Because the Lannisters are a bunch of lying, murdering, thieving, whoring sacks of shit in general?

There is that little thing about the Lannisters murdering most of Sansa's family, too. . . .

[Naathi Prince]

Brashcandy - True...but to sleep with people you find physically attractive ONLY on that basis...

Liking someone is not the same as thinking they are potential marriage partners.

Daario is unappealing to many readers, but Dany finds him quite attractive from the start.

And for those of you who balk at Tyrion for desiring a 12-13 year old...in the context of the books it's quite natural for people to consummate marriages at that age. How old was Lysa when Jon Arryn crawled on top of her? And Sansa offers no resistance. He chooses to not do anything based on his moral beliefs. Guess I'm getting off topic.

Lysa was a lot older than 12. Sansa offers no resistance because she's essentially a broken person. Tyrion stops because he used to whores who pretend to be interested in him, not because he doesn't want to bone Sansa or has a problem with doing so.

[Wouter]

My point is that Sansa's expectation of an apology is ridiculous and unfounded.

Sansa - in the books - hasn't show an "expectation of an apology" anyway. It's actually quite reasonable though, for a reader to hope that Tyrion would have the grace to apologise to her over his part in the sham that was forced on her. Especially if he wants to be on more or less friendly terms with the Starks in general and Sansa in particular (and why not, now that he has broken with his own family?).

The offer is no less legitimate. Tywin only cared about Sansa marrying a Lannister. He didn't care which Lannister.

The offer was too late - Sansa couldn't say "yes, give me Lancel instead" at that time or she would have disobeyed Cersei and Joffrey. Cersei had everything prepared, the guests were waiting, it was too late to call it off for the Lannisters without massive loss of face. Lancel was still bedridden at the time, so he couldn't have stepped up in Tyrion's place - the vows would have to be said in his bedchamber, with Cersei's show falling by the wayside.

Tyrion is a Lannister. Why should he apologize for being one? If Tyrion was unkind to Sansa then Tywin was no less unkind to Tyrion, and yet Tywin's actions are almost completely ignored and Tyrion is villified for daring to marry.

I don't ignore Tywin's actions, in fact I think he got his just desserts when Tyrion shot him and I don't condemn Tyrion for kinslaying (IMO Tywin had it more than coming from Tyrion).

But that Tywin is unkind to Tyrion doesn't excuse him being unkind to Sansa (and generally he wasn't, it's just that Tyrion abandoned sympathy for Sansa when her interests and those of his family got diametrically opposed). If anything, it should inspire him to do and be better than his father and be kind to "dwarfs, broken and crippled things" (which he generally is) and to young hostages as well.

Tyrion should not apologise for being a Lannister, but for the fact that he did not arrange a warning for her when he learned of Tywin's plans, and instead behaved like a good little lion by going along, leaving his future wife to get the news from Cersei and to be forced to the altar at sword point. That's not OK. Tyrion's family and Sansa's family were at war, and Tyrion was doing his part in the cynical misuse and abuse of Sansa by the Lannisters as a power bloc.

[Wouter]

Lysa was a lot older than 12. Sansa offers no resistance because she's essentially a broken person. Tyrion stops because he used to whores who pretend to be interested in him, not because he doesn't want to bone Sansa or has a problem with doing so.

I disagree here. Sansa is not broken in my opinion, she offered no resistance because she realised it would only get her harmed further and she was in no position to resist succesfully. Sansa is actually thriving in the Vale like never before, IMO, far from being broken. Arya seems to carry more mental scars than Sansa does.

As for Tyrion, he stopped because he finally realised just how afraid and revolted she was. Not because there was no pretense of interest, but because of the revulsion shown. Tyrion is not Ned Stark but he isn't Ramsay Snow either.

[Naathi Prince]

I disagree here. Sansa is not broken in my opinion, she offered no resistance because she realised it would only get her harmed further and she was in no position to resist succesfully. Sansa is actually thriving in the Vale like never before, IMO, far from being broken. Arya seems to carry more mental scars than Sansa does.

As for Tyrion, he stopped because he finally realised just how afraid and revolted she was. Not because there was no pretense of interest, but because of the revulsion shown. Tyrion is not Ned Stark but he isn't Ramsay Snow either.

I used the qualifier essentially, but I think if Tyrion did actually force himself on her, she'd have been broken.

Again, Tyrion's used to whores, who pretend for him. When even Sansa, a most dutiful and ladylike of women can't do that, he gets pissed. He would have eventually forced himself on her.

[Wouter]

As far as Sansa goes, it seems she is poised to marry Harry the Heir at the moment...Littlefinger has bought his time from the Lords Declarant, so the only thing that would prevent this marriage is Sansa disappearing or Littlefinger's death (or a host of unforeseen events, I'm sure).

There are lots of foreseeable things that could prevent the marriage - LF's offer not being genuine to start with, for example. Sansa not wanting to go along, for another.

IIRC, Tyrion did all he could to make life easier for Sansa...as much as was in his power. He could have chosen to not play Lord Tywin's game, but that would have just put Sansa in the hands of someone who DIDN'T care. Tyrion has nothing to apologize for, personally. He could apologize for House Lannister, sure, but he refused to consummate the marriage and treated her gently. Under the circumstances he did the best he thought he could do.

Tyrion is an intelligent and resourceful person - he could have found a way to warn Sansa so he could either work out a deal with her (going along with the marriage but not with the wedding by agreement in advance) or Sansa could tell the Tyrells in time for them to act on it. He had no plans to let her go either, after he would have left KL.

And actually, Lancel would have cared about as much about Sansa as Tyrion did, I suspect. Lancel was ashamed of how he used to treat Sansa, and already becoming pious. He would not have touched her.

Wouter - I agree with some of your points, but the fact remains that all those kings you mentioned were the rightful heirs of the ruling house. Bad or not, according to law they are entitled to the throne. Not saying Tyrion couldn't be king, he just wouldn't take the throne and become king, he would need to marry the Queen, if a Queen ruled, and none of the likely candidates for Queen seem like they would care for him in that manner.

I really don't think Tyrion would be consort to a ruling queen (to Dany, in other words). It's not like he's terribly desireable in that way. I see more a career like Viserys (the one from the book "lives of four kings", not Dany's brother) for him, if he would get that close to power. He has the competence for that - and the reputation.

[Monica21]

Because the Lannisters are a bunch of lying, murdering, thieving, whoring sacks of shit in general?

And I hold them in high regard for being so good at it.

There is that little thing about the Lannisters murdering most of Sansa's family, too. . . .

Tyrion has to apologize not only for touching his wife's boob on their wedding night, but now also for the sins of his family? Tyrion's no saint, but come on.

[Kittykatknits]

Ha, Tyrion is no better, to be sure, in that regard. And to be fair, he didn't choose Sansa, she was forced on him. Tyrion has a weakness for the flesh, and is desperate for a woman to accept him as he is and parades around with whores a-many in a desperate attempt to soothe his ego. Dany has a weakness for the flesh, and a young woman's regards for a sharp wit, handsome face, and bedtime skills.

Let me repeat, Dany and Sansa are not bad people, and Dany and women in general are not sluts for sleeping with people they find attractive. Just giving evidence for why she ain't gonna bed Tyrion, and neither is Sansa. Please limit your discussion to the context of what I am saying and not the more generalized 'Dany is a nasty slut' discussion.

A weakness for the flesh? She's had sex with three men, two of which were her husband. Either way, Dany is a person and should have a sex life just any other peson. And it is neither a weakness of the flesh or limited to only young woman to want a person who you are attracted to, find intellligement, or can enjoy in the bedroom. Women of any age can enjoy that.

I think that alot of people dislike Sansa for not sleeping with Harry Potter, or something ...

Well. that makes sense. Now I'm totally pissed at her.

Brashcandy - True...but to sleep with people you find physically attractive ONLY on that basis...

Liking someone is not the same as thinking they are potential marriage partners.

Daario is unappealing to many readers, but Dany finds him quite attractive from the start.

And for those of you who balk at Tyrion for desiring a 12-13 year old...in the context of the books it's quite natural for people to consummate marriages at that age. How old was Lysa when Jon Arryn crawled on top of her? And Sansa offers no resistance. He chooses to not do anything based on his moral beliefs. Guess I'm getting off topic.

And what is wrong with having sex with someone you find attractive? People, both men and women, have every right to choose the object of their desire based upon their own definition of what they find attractive.

Also, it was not usual to consummate marriages at that age of 12. Martin has specifically said that this was not the case. Most women were not married until they were older and when they were married at this age, the consummation waited until she was closer to 15 or 16. Viserys was also wondering how Drogo felt about Dany's young age. Lysa was much older than Sansa when she got married.

And he didn't stop for moral reasons, he did it because he saw the revulsion in her eyes. He still expected her to have sex with him at some point.

Because the Lannisters are a bunch of lying, murdering, thieving, whoring sacks of shit in general?

There is that little thing about the Lannisters murdering most of Sansa's family, too. . . .

I think that might be the most accurate description of the Lannisters I've ever read.

[Cheese Pudding]

I guess none, the gods don't like kinslayers.

[CBroome1979]

I'm sure if Sansa would have seemed interested Tyrion wouldn't have given it a second thought and went to town. He just showed a bit of morality by sparing her when he knew she was disgusted and horrified by the whole ordeal. Tyrion has his issues, but he tries to be a good person. Like most every character, he is gray.

Not even saying Dany or Sansa SHOULD marry him. Just from the history of the last five books, I doubt Dany or Sansa would be interested in the slightest. For whatever reason.

As far as Dany screwing around with Daario goes, it isn't morally wrong but it IS stupid. She's the supposed rightful Targaryen heir, and he is no suitable match for her. Now let me hear about how a woman should be able to sleep with whomever she wants. LOL

[Naathi Prince]

I'm sure if Sansa would have seemed interested Tyrion wouldn't have given it a second thought and went to town. He just showed a bit of morality by sparing her when he knew she was disgusted and horrified by the whole ordeal. Tyrion has his issues, but he tries to be a good person. Like most every character, he is gray.

Not even saying Dany or Sansa SHOULD marry him. Just from the history of the last five books, I doubt Dany or Sansa would be interested in the slightest. For whatever reason.

As far as Dany screwing around with Daario goes, it isn't morally wrong but it IS stupid. She's the supposed rightful Targaryen heir, and he is no suitable match for her. Now let me hear about how a woman should be able to sleep with whomever she wants. LOL

a widow who thinks she can't have kids? whats the harm? Hizdahr knew and married her anyway.

[Wouter]

I guess none, the gods don't like kinslayers.

Actually, the Creator (known as GRRM) seems to like Tyrion very, very much.

It also seems the gods only dislike kinslayers if those are generally believed to be kinslayers, not so much if they manage to hide it from the general knowledge.

Which calls into question how real the gods are within the world. There is some truth to the Old Gods (though AFAIK the "singers" don't necessarily frown on kinslaying especially, compared to other crimes), but I doubt the Lord of Light and the Seven and the Drowned God and co actually exist within the world of the books.

[Cheese Pudding]

I know GRRM does like Tyrion. But I believe he's role is just to play a huge part, not that huge. I it really doesn't make sense this statement about the kinslayers that are believed to be kinslayers. From what source is this info? I don't remember anything like that, sorry.

[brashcandy]

Not even saying Dany or Sansa SHOULD marry him. Just from the history of the last five books, I doubt Dany or Sansa would be interested in the slightest. For whatever reason.

Because they would find him unattractive, as most people do? That might hurt some of the Tyrion fanboys, but it's a fact. Dany and Sansa have shown an appreciation for many different types of men, but no one has the right to police any person's sexual desire. It's one of those things that is really up to the individual and no one should be compelled to sleep with a person they don't want.

As far as Dany screwing around with Daario goes, it isn't morally wrong but it IS stupid. She's the supposed rightful Targaryen heir, and he is no suitable match for her. Now let me hear about how a woman should be able to sleep with whomever she wants. LOL

Him not being a suitable match for her to marry isn't important. She wants sexual satisfaction from him and that's what he can deliver in spades. Dany is also a queen in her own right, giving her a lot more latitude in these decisions.

[The Mother of The Others]

Uhhhhhm, low. Low odds. She is in the vale, though, and Tyrion has agreed to help the silly hill people of the Vale to take over that region. At the moment, you and I would expect this to make Sansa even less of a Tyrion fan. But things may change. The Others could invade the vale and be in the process of decimating it. Maybe Petyr even finds some machiavellian way to strike a dark bargain with them to secure his own survival while the vale becomes their hunting grounds, to Sansa's horror. (Like the bargain Craster was enjoying). Tyrion could then show up on the back of a dragon like her knight in shining armor (Shagga wouldn't be far behind, but he'd be farting and bulging and it's simply best that we not focus on him as part of this scenario). Tyrion could swoop in, pull her up onto the dragon, and take her and a couple other VIPs back up to the eyrie, perch the dragon there, and let them off as if he'd delivered them to a refugee center like a hero. It'd be very romantic. :dunno: Then, as the rest of Dany's army arrived and drove back the threat, it'd seem like a better and better idea to join their forces together. Whether their genitals would follow suit, who knows. The point is, this could all be part of Sansa's discovery process----that the real knights in shining armor she's encountering aren't quite like the image she had in mind when she played at princess games during her Hannah Montana stage.

[CBroome1979]

Hizdahr is not in Westeros, and Hizdahr might have conspired to have her killed soon after their wedding. Dany was just a goal to him, not a Queen.

I like Dany's character. If she wants to screw a thousand sellswords I won't like her any less. I like Sansa's character. If she wants to marry a hundred knights or play along with the latest schemer out of fear...I won't like her any less. They just aren't going to marry Tyrion. Period.