Tyrion Lannister, Hand of the King/Power Drunkard

[Spiderweaves]

Slavery is an abomination to our standards but in Essos it's perfectly normal. It's the system there and the characters are acting within the system. What Tyrion did was perfecly normal and legal. As a 21st century reader he is abusing slaves but to Tyrion he's paying for a sex just like every other man in Essos.

When I travel away from where I'm from, I tend to take my moral compass with me.

Do you think Tyrion consciously considered whether or not the women in Essos could give consent? In other words, do you think he knew and chose to ignore that he was committing a Westerosi moral wrong?

I don't know if "going native" should work as an excuse.

(edited for clarity)

[Mulled Wino]

+1

Wrong. And tyrion smarts are overrated.

[E-Ro]

I guess the best way to explain my point would be this example.

Today its perfectly normal for women to have premaritial sex. Most women are virigins on their wedding night. This is perfectly normal in the 21st century.

Take this concept to the world of ASOIAF. Do you think Joffrey would marry Sansa if she had multiple sex partners? Nope. She would be "undesirible". She would even be called a whore for this. These are two different cultural norms. Women back then were excepted to be virgins on their wedding night.

Slavery is an abomination to our standards but in Essos it's perfectly normal. It's the system there and the characters are acting within the system. What Tyrion did was perfecly normal and legal. As a 21st century reader he is abusing slaves but to Tyrion he's paying for a sex just like every other man in Essos.

I don't anyone to think I'm ok with slavery. GRRM made it perfectly acceptable in his series though and it is his series and the characters that live in them that we are discussing. I had a hard time reading many parts of the series that were cultural norms for the people of ASOIAF. Just because I didn't like what I read, I don't think it would be fair for me to criticize a character for doing something that is perfectly normal.

But this is my point, if it is wrong to me, I am going to call you on it. Many charecters do things that are legal and normal in westeros and essos, but it does not make them ok. And many charecters are criticised for things that are ok in westeros, so why shouldnt tyrion get the same treatment? We all have our favorite charecters, and none of them are perfect. I like stannis, but I dont make excuses or try to rationalise the fact that he burns people.

[Toccs]

I think you completely misunderstood my interpretation of it. I very much understood what you posted. Tyrion actually did almlst nothing as there was no one in the dungeons and its too dangerous in the streets to go searching for volunteers with no protection. Varys was kissing ass, clearly. I mean, are you really taking what varys says in public seriously?

I'm taking all the recruits Thorne brought back with him seriously.

ETA : Except for Janos Slynt, I can't take that guy seriously at all.

[Mulled Wino]

It's not rational, in ADWD Tyrion was a mess. He walked into KL believing he'll heal the realm, and be recognized for a hero for it by Tywin etc. Instead, he was falsely accused of kinslaying and Kingslaying. Everyone, Tywin, Cersei, and even decent people like Kevan believed the lie, which was built for the most part on character assassination. Shae and Bronn betrayed and abandoned him. He lost everything he

No, instead he blew it by getting power hungry and cocky.

Wait, revelation! He was betrayed by a sellsword and a whore?!?!?!? You dont say?

Pycelle had it coming, and worse since he'd broken every vow he'd made as a maester, and he watched good men die to carry out a lie.

Only wish Shagga took his head when he swung, rather than his beard.

Huh? Since when would tyrion pinish him for breaking vows?!?!!? C'mon, think about what you're saying. Pycelle broke his vows to help hous Lannister. Did tyrion dole out justice to flynt for real or did he just want to own the gold cloaks. Its laughable believing that tyrion actually wanted "justice", thats not how he acted, even thoug he said it once.

*Cracks knuckles*

Yeap. Problem being? People that are put down and underestimated tend to like the feeling that comes with the sense of power.

I bet he was an ass to Tyrion.

Tyrion gave him the dungeons. That's what Ned gave Yoren. The Crown doesn't really try to actively encourage men to go to the Watch. You can argue the stupidity of that, considering you omniscient (Or nigh-omniscient) perspective, but it's a fact. Actually, given the fact that the city would soon come under siege, sending able-bodied men away would be rather dumb.

And what disrespect was given to Maester Aemon or the others here?

Nope. Tyrion has always been a perceptive fellow. The fact he noticed something when he was in power doesn't mean he noticed that something because he was in power. How do you say, correlation doesn't imply causation?

Considering that his father sent him to King's Landing precisely to cull Cersei's excesses, doing away with someone that was spying for her, and thus making his own work more difficult, seem the reasonable thing to do.He incapacitated a rival piece. Hardly overconfident.

I think that does it for the OP. Now let's jump in through 4 pages of... Something.

"laughes at knuckle cracking"

You didnt do shit. First off, your first paragraph proved my point. Tyrion isnt fit for rule because of the big ass chip on his shoulder. Thanks for agreeing (i was waiting for that one).

Second point. He was an ass to tyrion and tyrion clowned him in front of the entire watch and claimed his share of crabs. So now he was just being a dick for no reason, and totally ignored the gravity of his visits- like a dick.

Right, Ned already emptied the dungeons and There were 6 of those rabble rousing priests left. Its stated to tyrion that Yoren already too all the potential prisoners to tyrion right then and there. Since you're obviously not really up on things- there's a shit ton of people in kl tyrion wants to get rid of. The Nw will take anyone, but tyrion gives no assisstancd in getting the smallfolk to go to the Wall.

Did you even read my post? Clearly the disrespect is laughing publicly at the NW concerns. When he knows they are no fools and he could tell there was something going on at the wall in his own head.

When tyrion found out that Pycelle was his fathers spy, he should have let off. It was stupid. Tywin was coming back, and all he did was feed cersei info. Pycelle had never ever proven an enemy to house lannister. Tyrion could have taken advantage of that instead of making an enemy for no reason.

I'm taking all the recruits Thorne brought back with him seriously.

ETA : Except for Janos Slynt, I can't take that guy seriously at all.

Ok, cant take your first post seriously.

And slynt didnt go back with thorne.

[danm_999]

Huh? Since when would tyrion pinish him for breaking vows?!?!!? C'mon, think about what you're saying. Pycelle broke his vows to help hous Lannister. Did tyrion dole out justice to flynt for real or did he just want to own the gold cloaks. Its laughable believing that tyrion actually wanted "justice", thats not how he acted, even thoug he said it once.

Tyrion's charge, from Tywin, the Hand, was to find out who was undermining the Iron Throne's power by giving shitty advice to Joffrey and undermining House Lannister.

Tyrion quickly identified Cersei was responsible for several of these poor decisions, and that Pycelle was responsible for leaking information to her. Hence he dealt with Pycelle, and Cersei had to come later.

Pycelle broke his vows because Pycelle is sworn to the Throne. Tyrion, as Hand, is thus Pycelle's master, not Cersei. By leaking information to Cersei, Pycelle broke his vows.

[Mulled Wino]

I think Tyrion did a very good job running King's Landing, and I think while he definitely got a taste for power that was very pleasant to him, but kept a level head and did more good than bad. Some examples;

• Recognising the city's starvation, he forbid feasting in the Red Keep.
  
• Removes Janos Slynt from the Small Council. Has Allar Deem, Mr Ask-No-Questions-About-Baby-Murdering assassinated.
  
• Gives Allister Thorne men for the Night's Watch, and creates favourable propaganda for the allure of joining the Night's Watch (albeit by humiliating Throne).
  
• Binds the Dornish and House Tyrell to the Iron Throne.
  
• Personally leads the sortie on the King's Gate after the Hound pussies out.
  
• Saves King's Landing from a very nasty sack from Stannis (and likely a nasty counter sack by Tywin and the Tyrells) with his chain.
  

Tyrion is honestly, too competant to be kept in power, which is why Littlefinger conspires to have him removed twice (likely with Mandon Moore, second time by framing him for Joffrey's murder by suggesting the dwarf show at the Purple Wedding). Meanwhile, every major player in the game is trying to keep Cersei IN power, because she does a horrible job at it.

He forbid feasting after Pycelle gave him the idea. Just saying

Got rid of slynt to pit in his own flunky,

No, he gave thorne shit and did nothing beyond the bare minimum.

He tried to bind Dorne, but they never were bound. True about Joff and Margery.

Yea, and that sortie was like Luke vs 100 stormtroopers. But u have a point there.

He didnt save shit. Tywin saved the city. Tyrion helped postpone it, but Tywin saved the city.

Lf tried to take him out b/c tyrion embarrassed him, so LF played tyrion.

[Mulled Wino]

Tyrion's charge, from Tywin, the Hand, was to find out who was undermining the Iron Throne's power by giving shitty advice to Joffrey and undermining House Lannister.

Tyrion quickly identified Cersei was responsible for several of these poor decisions, and that Pycelle was responsible for leaking information to her. Hence he dealt with Pycelle, and Cersei had to come later.

Pycelle broke his vows because Pycelle is sworn to the Throne. Tyrion, as Hand, is thus Pycelle's master, not Cersei. By leaking information to Cersei, Pycelle broke his vows.

Cersei is queen regent. Ranked higher than the Hand.

Pycelle had zero to do with joff's blunders. Try again. What tyrion found out is that pycelle had done more for house lannister than he himself had ever done.

[danm_999]

He forbid feasting after Pycelle gave him the idea. Just saying

But Tyrion put the policy in place.

Got rid of slynt to pit in his own flunky,

Jacelyn Bywater, who was competant.

No, he gave thorne shit and did nothing beyond the bare minimum.

He gave Thorne the run of the dungeons and gave men in King's Landing a reason to join the Watch. That's all he could do. The bare minimum is doing nothing, like what Tywin did for the Night's Watch.

He tried to bind Dorne, but they never were bound. True about Joff and Margery.

He did bind them, it's just that Cersei and Tywin managed to unbind them.

He didnt save shit. Tywin saved the city. Tyrion helped postpone it, but Tywin saved the city.

Tyrion saved the city from being sacked by Stannis. I've no doubt that Tywin would have come back into the city and counter-sacked, and won the battle, but it would have been very, very unpleasant for King's Landing. By ruining Stannis fleet, and creating the bridge of ships, Tyrion makes it possible for Tywin and Mace to take Stannis in the rear. Otherwise, they'd have been stuck on the wrong side of the Blackwater Rush, and Stannis would have landed his entire force at the Mud Gate, and his ships would have been able to delay Tywin.

Lf tried to take him out b/c tyrion embarrassed him, so LF played tyrion.

Littlefinger tried to take Tyrion out because he knew about the dagger, and Tyrion had too many good ideas.

[Mulled Wino]

Tyrion's charge, from Tywin, the Hand, was to find out who was undermining the Iron Throne's power by giving shitty advice to Joffrey and undermining House Lannister.

Tyrion quickly identified Cersei was responsible for several of these poor decisions, and that Pycelle was responsible for leaking information to her. Hence he dealt with Pycelle, and Cersei had to come later.

Pycelle broke his vows because Pycelle is sworn to the Throne. Tyrion, as Hand, is thus Pycelle's master, not Cersei. By leaking information to Cersei, Pycelle broke his vows.

Amd dan, please tell me why the hell tyrion would care if he broke his vows? Since when dd he ever care about that? Pycelle was working for the wrong lannister, but was still working for house lannister. All he needed was a small chance in reporting structure. You dont repay decades of service to your family and one small treason to yourself woth being thrown in the worst dungeons in kl. total abuse of power by tyrion and not smart at all. As evidenced by what happened to pycelle when the real hand took over. For fucks sake, tyrion was a substitute hand.

[danm_999]

Cersei is queen regent. Ranked higher than the Hand.

The Hand rules on the King's behalf and when the King is away, in practice, the Hand is the King. Queen Regent is a title without teeth.

It's why Tywin is allowed to try and marry Cersei off again when he returns to King's Landing, despite her being Queen Regent.

Pycelle had zero to do with joff's blunders. Try again. What tyrion found out is that pycelle had done more for house lannister than he himself had ever done.

Pycelle recommended Ned Stark lose his head to Joffrey, and Pycelle jeopardised Tyrion's alliance proposal with the Dornish to gain favour with Cersei.

[danm_999]

Amd dan, please tell me why the hell tyrion would care if he broke his vows?

Because his vow is to serve an authority (the Throne). Tyrion is the representative of that authority, so by breaking his vows, Pycelle is making Tyrion's job more difficult.

All he needed was a small chance in reporting structure.

When someone betrays your confidence in the Game of Thrones, when you explicitly, as Hand of the King, tell them to keep something a secret, if they fail, it's reasonable they be removed from their position.

You dont repay decades of service to your family and one small treason to yourself woth being thrown in the worst dungeons in kl. total abuse of power by tyrion and not smart at all. As evidenced by what happened to pycelle when the real hand took over. For fucks sake, tyrion was a substitute hand.

And Tywin, the actual Hand, deliberately told him to find out who was subverting the crown and put their head on a spike. He even mentions Pycelle by name as a suspect! Tyrion was actually more merciful than his brief allowed!

What do you think Tywin would have done to Pycelle if Pycelle pulled this shit?

[Mulled Wino]

But Tyrion put the policy in place.

Jacelyn Bywater, who was competant.

He gave Thorne the run of the dungeons and gave men in King's Landing a reason to join the Watch. That's all he could do. The bare minimum is doing nothing, like what Tywin did for the Night's Watch.

He did bind them, it's just that Cersei and Tywin managed to unbind them.

Tyrion saved the city from being sacked by Stannis. I've no doubt that Tywin would have come back into the city and counter-sacked, and won the battle, but it would have been very, very unpleasant for King's Landing. By ruining Stannis fleet, and creating the bridge of ships, Tyrion makes it possible for Tywin and Mace to take Stannis in the rear. Otherwise, they'd have been stuck on the wrong side of the Blackwater Rush, and Stannis would have landed his entire force at the Mud Gate, and his ships would have been able to delay Tywin.

Littlefinger tried to take Tyrion out because he knew about the dagger, and Tyrion had too many good ideas.

He put the policy in place, but i remember tyrion himself not following said policy. He even says that he'd rather eat up everything and worry about food shortages later when he was giving his personal views.

Bywater was competent, so was Slynt. If you note in the text, Tyrion makes note of how he now owns the gold cloaks after he promoted bywater. Thereby revealing his true intentions. Why else would he send off all the red cloaks. He hired bywater cuz he knew he was enemies with all of slynts allies. Dont fool yourself.

He could have done plenty more, like give throne an an escort to go recruit in kl and give a public emdorsement instead of mocking the Nw publicly. Are you tellinvg me that telling Bronn in front of everyone to get Thorne 100 shovels so the NW can bury their dead properly is doing all they can do. Tyrion was acting like a right cunt.

Who's to say anyone couldnt have held the city for like 10 hrs like tyrion did. Cersei was already rolling with the wildfire. The chain was a great idea, but it certainly didnt warrant him still being hand when he woke up if Tywin was back. Then little ppwer drunk tyrion was sulking about it all day.

He didnt try take him out b/c tyrion punked him out with the whole Myrcella/Sweetrobin thing?

[Mulled Wino]

I think that a lot of what Tyrion did in KL during ACOK and ASOS was stupid and poorly thought-out, and honestly his "game-playing prowess" is not nearly as great as he is given credit for.

When he enters KL, there are six main people he has to deal with:

Cercei

Joffrey

Slynt

Littlefinger

Pycelle

Varys

Let's start with Slynt. Slynt is not particularly smart, not above backstabbing, and unaccustomed to court life. However, he owes everything he has to the Lannisters and considers them allies. No action needs to be taken against him, although if Tyrion wants to try to appear as a powerful player he can remove him. IMO, this is not the correct course of action, but i'll get to why later.

Littlefinger is next. He appears mischievous but he is actually far, far worse. He is a clever, conniving, backstabbing player who will ruthlessly play factions against eachother and plunge the entire realm into war to improve his position. Tyrion is one of the few who recognize that he is a pretty big threat (albeit still doesn't give him credit as the biggest threat in the court), but LF would be hard to remove and has use. Tyrion should have removed him in a second (and his failure to do so resulted in Tyr getting framed to regicide), but i can understand his failure to do so.

Pycelle. The loyal servant to house Lannister. Indubitably a threat, but he can be won over fairly well with the promise of Tywin's favor--there is no doubt in anyone's mind that Tywin will be the one ruling in KL at the end of the war (at least as long as Joff is king).

Varys. He distorts information and gives you enough to screw yourself over. Tyrion is a fool to trust him with anything, although Varys is simply to useful to remove (and doing so would be impossible). But Tyr makes a massive mistake in trust Varys far too much.

Now the main two fuck-ups:

Cercei. She loves her children and mistrusts Tyrion. Cercei will remain in power for quite some time, and Tyr and Cer are on the same side whether they like it or not: they both want Jaime back and if KL falls they both lose their heads. Tyrion should have been trying to win Cersei's trust, convince her that she must help Tyrion for the children's sake. This approach might not work, but it is a HELL of a lot better than going behind Cersei's back and marrying Myrcella off to Dorne--going to Cersei first with that plan would be far better, making it clear you are doing it to protect Myrcella. I think that Tyr could also have pushed protecting Sansa onto Cer's back--make it clear that if it continues Jaime will face horrible consequences and Cer will be forced to do it.

Joff. Tyrion's handling of Joff was wrong in every imaginable way and i can't sympathize all that much with Tyr's treatment by Joff in ASOS because it was all preventable and Tyr should have seen it coming. Joff is a meglomaniac sadist petty powerdrunk dumbass king, you don't deal with MSPPDKs by humiliating them in open court nor do you throw them to the ground and start kicking him...there's no excuse for doing something so stupid. Tyr knew damn well that Joff would come into power, that he would hold a grudge against Tyr if he did those actions, and that he would revel in torturing Tyr. There are plenty of ways of dealing with MSPPDKs that don't involve cowing them with power--something that doesn't work all that well on Joff since he doesn't consider the consequences of his actions, nor is it sustainable since Tyrion's power only flows from Tywin's absence and even if Tywin wanted to protect Tyr, Joff would come into his own eventually.

Edited to finish: Tyrion's problem is pride. He wants to be the powerhouse, the one who calls the shots, and wants to exert his influence in that way. Notice how other great game-players (Littlefinger and Varys most notably) don't care if they come off as powerful, instead of exerting power they exert influence. Tyr doesn't want to manipulate Joff, he wants to rule him. He likes cornering and eliminating enemies, but to be a strong player he needs to be able to work through proxy--always keep your hands clean.

How did I miss this fantastic post???

The giat is that Tyrion just gets ahead of himself. He's not that smart and without the plot armor deathstar that he resides in, his head would have been on a spike somewhere.

[Mulled Wino]

Because his vow is to serve an authority (the Throne). Tyrion is the representative of that authority, so by breaking his vows, Pycelle is making Tyrion's job more difficult.

When someone betrays your confidence in the Game of Thrones, when you explicitly, as Hand of the King, tell them to keep something a secret, if they fail, it's reasonable they be removed from their position.

And Tywin, the actual Hand, deliberately told him to find out who was subverting the crown and put their head on a spike. He even mentions Pycelle by name as a suspect! Tyrion was actually more merciful than his brief allowed!

What do you think Tywin would have done to Pycelle if Pycelle pulled this shit?

So now cersei isnt a representative of the throne? She's been the actual queen lomger tha tyrion has been in kl for chrissake.

So what? When someone has served your family for decades and doesnt betray your family, just you, you dont completely alienate them without telling the people in your famiy that that persona has undoubtedly served.

The last point should be asked as so: do you think pycelle would ever ever ever do what he did to tyrion to tywin. Clearly not. Cersei was at kl much longer than tyrion. All these arguments ur making do nothing to disrove that the punishment tyrion doled out was anywhere near intelligent.

[danm_999]

He put the policy in place, but i remember tyrion himself not following said policy. He even says that he'd rather eat up everything and worry about food shortages later when he was giving his personal views.

What he'd like to do, and what he did are not the same thing though. I'm praising him for doing the latter despite the former.

Bywater was competent, so was Slynt.

Slynt sold positions in the Gold Cloaks, and Stannis uncovered evidence of extensive corruption. For someone who is supposed to uphold the law, this is a very bad job.

If you note in the text, Tyrion makes note of how he now owns the gold cloaks after he promoted bywater. Thereby revealing his true intentions. Why else would he send off all the red cloaks. He hired bywater cuz he knew he was enemies with all of slynts allies. Dont fool yourself.

I've no doubt Tyrion did this to increase his leverage over the Gold Cloaks, but at the same time he positively reformed them, largely by stopping corruption and baby murder, which makes the achievement more impressive.

He could have done plenty more, like give throne an an escort to go recruit in kl and give a public emdorsement instead of mocking the Nw publicly. Are you tellinvg me that telling Bronn in front of everyone to get Thorne 100 shovels so the NW can bury their dead properly is doing all they can do. Tyrion was acting like a right cunt.

Toccs post covers this already, and since you responded to it with merely a "wrong", I'd rather you addressed that before I posted anything new here.

Who's to say anyone couldnt have held the city for like 10 hrs like tyrion did. Cersei was already rolling with the wildfire.

What was Cersei's plan to deliver the wildfire? She didn't have one.

Why didn't Cersei order Slynt to train squads of men to deploy the wildfire? Why didn't Cersei have the plans to load wildfire into a ship in place? If improperly delivered, the wildfire would have been more damaging to the city than Stannis' army.

The chain was a great idea, but it certainly didnt warrant him still being hand when he woke up if Tywin was back. Then little ppwer drunk tyrion was sulking about it all day.

He seemed more pissed he was moved to Maegor's Holdfast honestly, because the Castle was full.

[danm_999]

So now cersei isnt a representative of the throne?

No. The Hand is.

She's been the actual queen lomger tha tyrion has been in kl for chrissake.

Which is irrelevant. Tyrion is the Hand.

So what? When someone has served your family for decades and doesnt betray your family, just you, you dont completely alienate them without telling the people in your famiy that that persona has undoubtedly served.

Pycelle did betray House Lannister. The Head of House Lannister, Tywin, told Tyrion to rule, and to stop the misrule. He specifically told Tyrion to get rid of Pycelle if there were any more shenanigans.

So when Pycelle decided to inform Cersei about the Dornish Alliance (and why, it's completely counter-productive), despite being explictly told not to by Tyrion, the representative of both the Iron Throne, and the Head of House Lannister, Pycelle has failed the Iron Throne and House Lannister.

Cersei is not House Lannister. Cersei is not the Iron Throne.

The last point should be asked as so: do you think pycelle would ever ever ever do what he did to tyrion to tywin. Clearly not.

Because he knew the consequences of fucking with Tywin. That's my point, Tyrion actually goes easier on Pycelle than Tywin would have.

Cersei was at kl much longer than tyrion. All these arguments ur making do nothing to disrove that the punishment tyrion doled out was anywhere near intelligent.

Actually, I've yet to argue about Tyrion's intelligence, just how well he executed his brief.

But now that you mention it, yes, Tyrion is quite intelligent, and he governed intelligently.

[danm_999]

Here's an interesting excerpt when Tyrion gives Pycelle the letter to Doran Martell:

The Prince of Dorne, himself. Might I ask . . .”

“Best not.”

“As you say.” Pycelle’s curiosity was so ripe that Tyrion could almost taste it. “Mayhaps . . . the king’s council . . .”

Tyrion tapped his wooden spoon against the edge of the bowl. “The council exists to advise the king, Maester.”

“Just so,” said Pycelle, “and the king—”

“—is a boy of thirteen. I speak with his voice.”

“So you do. Indeed. The King’s Own Hand.

Notice what Tyrion does here. He has Pycelle admit Tyrion represents the King, and that he speaks with the King's voice, and then with said voice, gives Pycelle a very, very clear command.

Pycelle then breaks said command. This is treason.

[Ser_Patreck]

EH, it got boring by the second page. I mean, Tyrion was cruel to the girls in Essos because "he's an ass". Talk about failure to grasp a character!

Let's just answer:

"laughes at knuckle cracking"

You didnt do shit. First off, your first paragraph proved my point. Tyrion isnt fit for rule because of the big ass chip on his shoulder. Thanks for agreeing (i was waiting for that one).

Hmmm. No. I made an affirmation, explored the reason for that affirmation, amd made a question. Which you're still to answer.

I'll do it again:

Yes, Tyrion enjoys power. Most probably, because it was kept out of his reach for so long. So?

Second point. He was an ass to tyrion and tyrion clowned him in front of the entire watch and claimed his share of crabs. So now he was just being a dick for no reason, and totally ignored the gravity of his visits- like a dick.

Yes he was being a dick. No, it wasn't without reason. It had a clear reason - Revenge. And Thorne deserved it, and actually, brought it upon himself.

Right, Ned already emptied the dungeons and There were 6 of those rabble rousing priests left. Its stated to tyrion that Yoren already too all the potential prisoners to tyrion right then and there. Since you're obviously not really up on things- there's a shit ton of people in kl tyrion wants to get rid of. The Nw will take anyone, but tyrion gives no assisstancd in getting the smallfolk to go to the Wall.

The Crown can't offer anything more than the content of the dungeons. Other people have to volunteer. He did offer assistance (food and lodging, mostly) to Thorne, so if he didn't find anyone, it's his own damn fault. The city was about to be besieged. Tyrion needed every fighting capable-man there. He also couldn't offer supplies. Again - KL was under threat all the time. What more could he do?

Did you even read my post? Clearly the disrespect is laughing publicly at the NW concerns. When he knows they are no fools and he could tell there was something going on at the wall in his own head.

"Yes, my Lord, I'll just go against common sense and totally believe your tale about the dead rising from their graves to attack the living. No proof needed. Here, have my men and resources. And I'm even doing it in front of the Small Council, which will judge me a dimwit and took all my powers from me and revert all my orders - Including the men and resources I just gave you. Such is my level of respect for the Watch. You're welcome."

Please.

When tyrion found out that Pycelle was his fathers spy, he should have let off. It was stupid. Tywin was coming back, and all he did was feed cersei info. Pycelle had never ever proven an enemy to house lannister. Tyrion could have taken advantage of that instead of making an enemy for no reason.

He wasn't Tywin's spy. He was Cersei's spy.

Let's rehash:

Cersei is acting stupidly. Tywin sends to Tyrion to keep her on the short leash. Tyrion knows Cersei isn't going to comply. So he must break down her power base, to force her to comply. He discovers her source of information on the goings of the Small Council, and a lot of other things I bet. What should he do again? Leave him be?

You're not even trying.

[Currawong]

I think that a lot of what Tyrion did in KL during ACOK and ASOS was stupid and poorly thought-out, and honestly his "game-playing prowess" is not nearly as great as he is given credit for.

<snip>

Edited to finish: Tyrion's problem is pride. He wants to be the powerhouse, the one who calls the shots, and wants to exert his influence in that way. Notice how other great game-players (Littlefinger and Varys most notably) don't care if they come off as powerful, instead of exerting power they exert influence. Tyr doesn't want to manipulate Joff, he wants to rule him. He likes cornering and eliminating enemies, but to be a strong player he needs to be able to work through proxy--always keep your hands clean.

Won't quote the entire post, but it was a great one, and a well thought-out analysis.

I think that Tyrion should have made a much bigger effort to get on-side with Cersei, although - and I have to be very fair to Tyrion in this - I am not sure how much he would have succeeded given Cersei's long-standing hatred or disdain for him. But I do think he could have made a smarter effort, coming at it from the perspective of protecting the children, especially her precious Joffrey.

Tyrion was also only acting Hand, standing in for Tywin, and I think he became so power-hungry in his own right that he sometimes forgot that. He certainly could have been smarter in using the threat of Tywin to manage people such as Janos Slynt and Pycelle. If Pycelle was loyal to the Lannister family, a few gentle hints along the lines of 'my father will be most grateful to know of your assistance' etc may have served to manage Pycelle and also subtly imply that Tyrion didn't want power for himself - oh no, he was only acting 'for' Tywin. The same type of tactics would have worked with Slynt - 'my father has asked me to make sure that the city guard do such and such'. I think that Tyrion would have done well to remember the old adage of catching more bees with honey than you do with vinegar.

Varys and LF were both genuine threats and needed to be managed, but Tyrion's strategy of giving out three different stories to Vary,s LF and Pycelle was designed to see which of them was telling Cersei what he was planning. If Tyrion had made a better attempt at getting Cersei on-side from the beginning, that may not have been necessary. Although we can laugh at the cleverness of the scheme in working out who was leaking information to Cersei, it actually backfired long term because LF certainly didn't appreciate being 'used' in that way and certainly lost no opportunity to make sure Tyrion went down in due course.

Joffrey - ah yes, although we might all enjoy the 'slap Joffrey' episodes, and relish Tyrion tearing strips off him after the KL riot, it was indeed very poor management of a boy with an enormous ego and a sense of self-righteous power and entitlement. You definitely do not put down those people in public! Appealing to Joffrey's ego, and pointing out 'cunning strategies' to get his way whilst appearing to be a gracious king may not always have got through to Joffrey, but it would not have alienated Cersei nearly as much, and Cersei working with Tyrion rather than against him would have had a much better chance of getting through to the kid. As it played out of course, when Tyrion was injured at Blackwater, Joffrey certainly had no incentive to tell Tywin anything nice about Tyrion.