Tyrion Lannister, Hand of the King/Power Drunkard

[Ser_Patreck]

He forbid feasting after Pycelle gave him the idea. Just saying

Got rid of slynt to pit in his own flunky,

No, he gave thorne shit and did nothing beyond the bare minimum.

He tried to bind Dorne, but they never were bound. True about Joff and Margery.

Yea, and that sortie was like Luke vs 100 stormtroopers. But u have a point there.

He didnt save shit. Tywin saved the city. Tyrion helped postpone it, but Tywin saved the city.

Lf tried to take him out b/c tyrion embarrassed him, so LF played tyrion.

This is just glorious. I mean, let's stop pretending making a serious analysis and just revel in character bashing.

Except, we don't do that, sorry. I'll just keep with the serious analysis.

Like the one that shows that, had Tyrion not defended the city and allowed Stannis to land his troops and break through the Mud Gate, he would be in a excellent position to actually defend himself when Tywin and the rest of the late arrivals came, and the battle's result would be different.

[TNine]

I think that Tyrion should have made a much bigger effort to get on-side with Cersei, although - and I have to be very fair to Tyrion in this - I am not sure how much he would have succeeded given Cersei's long-standing hatred or disdain for him. But I do think he could have made a smarter effort, coming at it from the perspective of protecting the children, especially her precious Joffrey.

I think that Tyrion should certainly have tried to appeal to Cersei's better side--Joff, Myrcella, Tommen, and Jaime are all in danger, and Tyrion should have capitalized on that. There were few actions that Tyrion couldn't justify as "for the children (and/or brother)". Would it have worked? Perhaps not, Cersei is a paranoid egotastical bitch, but the effort would have certainly warmed her more than giving away her children behind her back.

Tyrion was also only acting Hand, standing in for Tywin, and I think he became so power-hungry in his own right that he sometimes forgot that. He certainly could have been smarter in using the threat of Tywin to manage people such as Janos Slynt and Pycelle. If Pycelle was loyal to the Lannister family, a few gentle hints along the lines of 'my father will be most grateful to know of your assistance' etc may have served to manage Pycelle and also subtly imply that Tyrion didn't want power for himself - oh no, he was only acting 'for' Tywin. The same type of tactics would have worked with Slynt - 'my father has asked me to make sure that the city guard do such and such'.

Exactly. Tyrion wanted to use his power to do things to people, but he could have used suggestion to win people to his side. I think that he also "revealed" himself, that he was willing and able to quickly eliminate players from the small council is useful, but it is better to keep your true influence hidden. On the other hand, appearing powerful can have as many benefits as appearing weak, and with the incoming siege the ability to directly call shots may have been necessary, and therefore establishing his dominance on the small council would be necessary. However, i think that Pycelle could have been convinced to switch loyalties to Tyrion, and removing him was a direct move against Cersei.

I think that Tyrion would have done well to remember the old adage of catching more bees with honey than you do with vinegar.

Wrong analogy, methinks. Tyrion isn't trying to rule through hate as opposed to love, he's trying to rule through power as opposed to influence. Ultimately, this sets him up as a target and creates too many enemies--especially since his power is only temporary.

Varys and LF were both genuine threats and needed to be managed, but Tyrion's strategy of giving out three different stories to Vary,s LF and Pycelle was designed to see which of them was telling Cersei what he was planning. If Tyrion had made a better attempt at getting Cersei on-side from the beginning, that may not have been necessary. Although we can laugh at the cleverness of the scheme in working out who was leaking information to Cersei, it actually backfired long term because LF certainly didn't appreciate being 'used' in that way and certainly lost no opportunity to make sure Tyrion went down in due course.

I think this strategy was the brilliant execution of a poorly thought-out plan--his biggest concern on the small council is someone he should consider an ally, and selling Cersei's children behind her back while lying to councilers is a surefire way to make a whole lot of enemies.

Joffrey - ah yes, although we might all enjoy the 'slap Joffrey' episodes, and relish Tyrion tearing strips off him after the KL riot, it was indeed very poor management of a boy with an enormous ego and a sense of self-righteous power and entitlement. You definitely do not put down those people in public! Appealing to Joffrey's ego, and pointing out 'cunning strategies' to get his way whilst appearing to be a gracious king may not always have got through to Joffrey, but it would not have alienated Cersei nearly as much, and Cersei working with Tyrion rather than against him would have had a much better chance of getting through to the kid. As it played out of course, when Tyrion was injured at Blackwater, Joffrey certainly had no incentive to tell Tywin anything nice about Tyrion.

More than just influencing Joffrey, it would not be a bad idea to use Cersei against Joff, which creates discord among the other players of the game (weakening both Joff's and Cersei's positions) while keeping his hands clean. A great way to protect Sansa may have simply been to go up to Cersei and say "Robb Stark is beginning to hear disturbing things about his sister's treatment in King's Landing and is threatening recompense, i'm rooming Sansa with you and should anything bad happen to her than Jaime could be in serious danger". Then put a few of his own men to actually be the one guarding Sansa (apparently on Cersei's orders) in order to actually ensure she is protected, and you remove Sansa from Joff's reach without putting yourself in his cross-sights.

[danm_999]

Won't quote the entire post, but it was a great one, and a well thought-out analysis.

I think that Tyrion should have made a much bigger effort to get on-side with Cersei, although - and I have to be very fair to Tyrion in this - I am not sure how much he would have succeeded given Cersei's long-standing hatred or disdain for him. But I do think he could have made a smarter effort, coming at it from the perspective of protecting the children, especially her precious Joffrey.

This is exactly what he did though when he arrived (and thought he was on "rotten ice" with Cersei), he promised he was there to serve Joffrey, and protect him, and that his overriding goal was to get Jaime back, and initially this pacified her.

He kept trying this tactic, and it stopped working though. He justifies to Cersei he sent Myrcella to Dorne, because if KL fell, she'd be killed/raped, and Cersei balked. From there on out, she doesn't believe his claims he's doing it for her children.

We know this tactic is pointless long term anyway, Cersei has the valonqar prophecy in the back of her mind.

Tyrion was also only acting Hand, standing in for Tywin, and I think he became so power-hungry in his own right that he sometimes forgot that. He certainly could have been smarter in using the threat of Tywin to manage people such as Janos Slynt and Pycelle.

Why, when he's got his own authority and power to exercise the point. If he's telling them "do what I say or my dad will be mad", he looks childish and immature, exactly what he's hoping to avoid.

If Pycelle was loyal to the Lannister family, a few gentle hints along the lines of 'my father will be most grateful to know of your assistance' etc may have served to manage Pycelle and also subtly imply that Tyrion didn't want power for himself - oh no, he was only acting 'for' Tywin. The same type of tactics would have worked with Slynt - 'my father has asked me to make sure that the city guard do such and such'. I think that Tyrion would have done well to remember the old adage of catching more bees with honey than you do with vinegar.

At a Small Council meeting where Pycelle is present:

“My lord father has sent my brother to sit in his place in this council. He bids us accept Tyrion as the

Hand of the King, until such time as he himself can join us.”

Grand Maester Pycelle stroked his flowing white beard and nodded ponderously. “It would seem that a welcome is in order.”

Cersei read the letter again. “How many men have you brought with you?”

“A few hundred. My own men, chiefly. Father was loath to part with any of his. He is fighting a war, after all.”

The king names the Hand, with the consent of council. Joffrey named our lord father.”

“And our lord father named me.”

Now, I'd say Tyrion is pretty clear at hinting where his authority comes from without being obtuse here, and if he keeps going on about his father, it's going to begin to make his own authority irrelevant.

Varys and LF were both genuine threats and needed to be managed, but Tyrion's strategy of giving out three different stories to Vary,s LF and Pycelle was designed to see which of them was telling Cersei what he was planning. If Tyrion had made a better attempt at getting Cersei on-side from the beginning, that may not have been necessary. Although we can laugh at the cleverness of the scheme in working out who was leaking information to Cersei, it actually backfired long term because LF certainly didn't appreciate being 'used' in that way and certainly lost no opportunity to make sure Tyrion went down in due course.

Littlefinger had to get rid of Tyrion regardless because of the whole dagger used to kill Bran fiasco. Tyrion courting Littlefinger is a waste of time.

Joffrey - ah yes, although we might all enjoy the 'slap Joffrey' episodes, and relish Tyrion tearing strips off him after the KL riot, it was indeed very poor management of a boy with an enormous ego and a sense of self-righteous power and entitlement. You definitely do not put down those people in public! Appealing to Joffrey's ego, and pointing out 'cunning strategies' to get his way whilst appearing to be a gracious king may not always have got through to Joffrey, but it would not have alienated Cersei nearly as much, and Cersei working with Tyrion rather than against him would have had a much better chance of getting through to the kid. As it played out of course, when Tyrion was injured at Blackwater, Joffrey certainly had no incentive to tell Tywin anything nice about Tyrion.

Tyrion courting Joffrey is also a waste of time. Joffrey hates him, has always hated him, look at how he receives him in King's Landing for goodness sakes.

[Ser_Patreck]

More than just influencing Joffrey, it would not be a bad idea to use Cersei against Joff, which creates discord among the other players of the game (weakening both Joff's and Cersei's positions) while keeping his hands clean. A great way to protect Sansa may have simply been to go up to Cersei and say "Robb Stark is beginning to hear disturbing things about his sister's treatment in King's Landing and is threatening recompense, i'm rooming Sansa with you and should anything bad happen to her than Jaime could be in serious danger". Then put a few of his own men to actually be the one guarding Sansa (apparently on Cersei's orders) in order to actually ensure she is protected, and you remove Sansa from Joff's reach without putting yourself in his cross-sights.

He did use this reasoning with Cersei. More than once. It didn't work. Because Cersei simply lacks the ability to see the larger picture.

Cersei knew the abuse Joffrey was putting Sansa through. She did nothing. Rather, she told Sansa to bear it like a good bitch. Cersei would never go against her firstborn for Sansa.

[TNine]

This is exactly what he did though when he arrived (and thought he was on "rotten ice" with Cersei), he promised he was there to serve Joffrey, and protect him, and that his overriding goal was to get Jaime back, and initially this pacified her.

He kept trying this tactic, and it stopped working though. He justifies to Cersei he sent Myrcella to Dorne, because if KL fell, she'd be killed/raped, and Cersei balked. From there on out, she doesn't believe his claims he's doing it for her children.

Her sold Myrcella to the Dornish behind Cersei's back, with the explicit instruction to Pycelle that he doesn't tell Cersei. Yes, she's pissed, but honestly i think that Cersei is completely justifed here (jeeze, there's a sentence i never though i'd say.

We know this tactic is pointless long term anyway, Cersei has the valonqar prophecy in the back of her mind.

I don't think it was until Joff died by Tyrion's hand that Cersei really went crazy with the valonqar theory. I don't know if Tyr could have truly won Cer's backing, but the fact that he didn't try still shows his incompetence.

Why, when he's got his own authority and power to exercise the point. If he's telling them "do what I say or my dad will be mad", he looks childish and immature, exactly what he's hoping to avoid.

But it's more effective than "do what i say or i will be mad", which lacks teeth since all of Tyrion's power comes directly from Tywin. Tyrion exposes his own immaturity by not utilizing the fact Tyr poses a threat through Tywin--manipulation/coercion by proxy is a fundamental play in the game, and Tyrion does not utilize it at all. He uses his own power for threats, which is somewhat effective but inefficient and short-lived.

At a Small Council meeting where Pycelle is present:

Now, I'd say Tyrion is pretty clear at hinting where his authority comes from without being obtuse here, and if he keeps going on about his father, it's going to begin to make his own authority irrelevant.

His authority may be weakened, but it will certainly be more effective and longer lasting. Varys' threats are never overt, but Varys exerts plenty of influence on the political machinations of King's Landing. Although he can use both, and that's perfectly fine--but i think he uses too much brute strength and too little political cunning.

Littlefinger had to get rid of Tyrion regardless because of the whole dagger used to kill Bran fiasco. Tyrion courting Littlefinger is a waste of time.

LF should have been beheaded a long time ago, but no matter how skilled Tyrion was he would most likely have not seen LF as being so dangerous.

Tyrion courting Joffrey is also a waste of time. Joffrey hates him, has always hated him, look at how he receives him in King's Landing for goodness sakes.

Joff hates Tyrion because Tyrion humiliates Joff. Joff is the king, all power in KL flows directly from him--if you cannot make yourself appeal to the ruling party, you are, in my mind, automatically disqualified from being good at the game of thrones. Regardless, i think that Tyrion could have won Joff's favors with a few well-placed suggestions and lots of mindless flattery--and he certainly didn't need to make his position completely untenable by literally beating on Joffrey.

[callmedodge]

Tyrion was sent to KL to stop Cersei from fucking things up even more. Cersei immediately dismissed any power he might have been given and, subsequently, actively spied on him and subvert his plans, regardless of how it might affect the city. Pycelle may have always been working for House Lannister but Cersei was not. Cersei long ago decided to work for her own benefit and the benefit of her children. She herself lost a significant amount of power when Tywin shows up.

Tyrion was well within his rights to remove Slynt and Pycelle as they were Cersei`s pawns and not working towards the good of House Lannister and The Realm.

The CoK KL events are nothing but two siblings who hate each other vying for power to do what they believe is best for themselves.

All Tyrion wanted was recognition. He himself gets quite upset when he hears about how the smallfolk talk about him. Cersei couldn`t give a damn.

I don`t understand how anyone could view his actions in KL in a negative light.

[TNine]

He did use this reasoning with Cersei. More than once. It didn't work. Because Cersei simply lacks the ability to see the larger picture.

And because Tyr went behind Cersei's back multiple times, sold Myrcella to Dorne, kidnapped Tommen and threatened Joffrey. Cersei's certainly can't see the larger picture but that doesn't mean that she can't be manipulated--she won't understand "Joff needs to be humbled, he's an awful king", but she could certainly sympathize more with "if KL falls all Lannisters are dead men, we need to get as many of your children out of here as possible". I don't know whether it would have worked, but failing to try is a bad decision, and it made his position that much worse in ASOS.

Cersei knew the abuse Joffrey was putting Sansa through. She did nothing. Rather, she told Sansa to bear it like a good bitch. Cersei would never go against her firstborn for Sansa.

But she certainly would for Jaime. Tyrion would have done well to directly link Sansa's wellbeing and Jaime's in Cersei's mind, and then place the responsibility directly in her lap...while putting your own men on Sansa, to ensure the job got done. I think that, even if you don't take this route, there are better ways of protecting Sansa than directly confronting Joffrey.

Also, i think that Cersei "knew" about Sansa's beatings, but simply put it in the back of her mind--but, seeing as how Joff was more civilized when Cersei was around, i think that she did try to reign him in.

[Currawong]

Tyrion was sent to KL to stop Cersei from fucking things up even more. Cersei immediately dismissed any power he might have been given and, subsequently, actively spied on him and subvert his plans, regardless of how it might affect the city. Pycelle may have always been working for House Lannister but Cersei was not. Cersei long ago decided to work for her own benefit and the benefit of her children. She herself lost a significant amount of power when Tywin shows up.

Stopping Cersei from fucking things up even more meant 'managing' Cersei properly. Which Tyrion didn't do. The tactic of 'tell three different stories' to see which person was leaking information might have been a smart one - except that the tale involved Myrcella. Regardless of who actually leaked the tale, the very fact that it involved Myrcella only served to alienate Cersei completely because it looked as though Tyrion was working against her, as he had dared to suggest a match for her daughter without consulting her. Which Tyrion, as Hand, had absolutely no right to do - he was not Regent, and not Myrcella's parent. Cersei may have taken that sort of thing from Tywin, but she certainly wouldn't, and didn't, from Tyrion. Tyrion should have been smart enough to work out some other tale that would have got back to Cersei and confirmed who the blabbermouth was, but not got her so utterly furious.

And Tyrion should definitely have used the Jaime card far more than he did. Jaime was the one person in KL whom Cersei trusted: Tyrion could and should have played on his safety and getting him returned in order to ensure Sansa's safety with Joffrey. Even, at worst, a direct threat: "Dear sister, unless you do a little more to ensure that Sansa is protected and treated well, I'm afraid that the Starks will find out - and that might go very badly for our dear brother, mightn't it?" And if she had come back at him by saying that Tyrion would never do anything to betray Jaime, all Tyrion had to do was smile sweetly and say that he is not the only person around the court who can see what is going on with Sansa. And it would be such a shame if someone whispered to someone else, and those whispers ever reached Robb Stark ....

[danm_999]

Her sold Myrcella to the Dornish behind Cersei's back, with the explicit instruction to Pycelle that he doesn't tell Cersei. Yes, she's pissed, but honestly i think that Cersei is completely justifed here (jeeze, there's a sentence i never though i'd say.

He actually only proceeds once he has her consent. The initial business with Pycelle is a bluff to find Cersei's rat. She comes to him after, and finally agrees, and he thinks now he'll get the marriage alliance with Myrcella and Trystane.

I don't think it was until Joff died by Tyrion's hand that Cersei really went crazy with the valonqar theory. I don't know if Tyr could have truly won Cer's backing, but the fact that he didn't try still shows his incompetence.

Didn't try?

Tyrion sighed. She’d missed the point, as she did so often. “Joffrey is as safe with me as he is with you,” he assured her, “but so long as theboy feels threatened, he’ll be more inclined to listen.” He took her hand. “I am your brother, you know. You need me, whether you care to admit it or no. Your son needs me, if he’s to have a hope of retaining that ugly iron chair.”

His sister seemed shocked that he would touch her. “You have always been cunning.”

“In my own small way.” He grinned.

“It may be worth the trying . . . but make no mistake, Tyrion. If I accept you, you shall be the King’s Hand in name, but my Hand in truth.

You will share all your plans and intentions with me before you act, and you will do nothing without my consent. Do you understand?”

“Oh, yes.”

“Do you agree?”

“Certainly,” he lied. “I am yours, sister.” For as long as I need to be.

His sister fancied herself subtle, but he had grown up with her. He could read her face like one of his favorite books, and what he read now was rage, and fear, and despair. “Jaime—”

“—is my brother no less than yours,” Tyrion interrupted. “Give me your support and I promise you, we will have Jaime freed and returned to us unharmed.”

“How?” Cersei demanded. “The Stark boy and his mother are not like to forget that we beheaded Lord Eddard.”

“True,” Tyrion agreed, “yet you still hold his daughters, don’t you? I saw the older girl out in the yard with Joffrey.”

The problem isn't that he didn't try, the problem is who he's trying to befriend. Cersei is a person who surrounds herself with cronies, and anybody that has an independent thought or idea is immediatly a suspect in some shadow conspiracy. Look at the people she picks for her small council in AFFC, the most circumspect group ever.

But it's more effective than "do what i say or i will be mad", which lacks teeth since all of Tyrion's power comes directly from Tywin.

Lacks teeth? Tyrion has plenty of force in King's Landing. He has the City Watch and the Mountain Clans.

Tyrion exposes his own immaturity by not utilizing the fact Tyr poses a threat through Tywin--manipulation/coercion by proxy is a fundamental play in the game, and Tyrion does not utilize it at all. He uses his own power for threats, which is somewhat effective but inefficient and short-lived.

Tyrion does these things. He coerces Lancel to spy on Cersei, and feigns weakness with her by giving Pycelle back. He uses Ser Cleos as a pawn to sneak in people to break Jaime out (though the ploy fails). He keeps Joffrey away from court with a crossbow. He isn't just about threatening people with force.

LF should have been beheaded a long time ago, but no matter how skilled Tyrion was he would most likely have not seen LF as being so dangerous.

Littlefinger is a better player than Tyrion. As Varys is.

Joff hates Tyrion because Tyrion humiliates Joff. Joff is the king, all power in KL flows directly from him--if you cannot make yourself appeal to the ruling party, you are, in my mind, automatically disqualified from being good at the game of thrones.

Look at how Joffrey treats Tyrion when he arrives in King's Landing, before he's done any humiliating whatsoever.

Regardless, i think that Tyrion could have won Joff's favors with a few well-placed suggestions and lots of mindless flattery--and he certainly didn't need to make his position completely untenable by literally beating on Joffrey.

I disagree "winning over" Joffrey was ever possible for Tyrion, especially since he'd need to indulge Joffrey in too many things Tyrion did not want to do (beating Sansa, treating the smallfolk abominably).

[TNine]

Tyrion was sent to KL to stop Cersei from fucking things up even more.

Which does not entail "working behind Cersei's back and trying to undermine her power". There are much better ways of bringing someone to heel than with force, just look at how LF and Varys operate. At the very least, Tyrion could have let the blame lay on someone else's shoulders--making his means and motives clear is never a strong move.

Cersei immediately dismissed any power he might have been given

I don't really think she did. Cersei recognizes that Tyrion has power, stemming from Tywin's power, and had Tyrion proved useful without simply trying to overwhelm Cer than he might have avoided making her an enemy.

and, subsequently, actively spied on him and subvert his plans, regardless of how it might affect the city

Cersei only interfered with his plans when they involved her kids, and, well, everyone has spies everywhere (Tyr himself planted plenty of spies on Cersei). Cersei does not see the bigger picture, but while that makes it harder to reason with her it also makes her more easily manipulated.

Pycelle may have always been working for House Lannister but Cersei was not.

So turn Pycelle against Cersei--Pycelle serves in Tywin's best interests (since he is really the one in charge), Tyrion could have played to that.

Cersei long ago decided to work for her own benefit and the benefit of her children. She herself lost a significant amount of power when Tywin shows up.

Cersei still believes in the cause of house Lannister--Tywin can order her around still, and she still loves both Jaime and Tywin. Tywin took a lot of power from her because she did not want to make moves against her own lord father, and since Tywin now had direct control over the capital he needed less pawns.

Tyrion was well within his rights to remove Slynt and Pycelle as they were Cersei`s pawns and not working towards the good of House Lannister and The Realm.

He was not wrong in removing them, but were they truly his best plays? Pycelle can be turned around and Slynt is too clueless to really hide his plots. There are greater fish to fry on the small council, removing Slynt is not necessary and should be done to prove a point, while removing Pycelle is actively a move against Cersei, and can only create enemies.

The CoK KL events are nothing but two siblings who hate each other vying for power to do what they believe is best for themselves.

Because both are too petty to work together.

All Tyrion wanted was recognition. He himself gets quite upset when he hears about how the smallfolk talk about him. Cersei couldn`t give a damn.

Tyrion's desire for recognition comes from serious cognitive dissonance. I'm pretty sure the chapter about the smallfolk hating him is the same chapter where he orders they burn down a few hundred homes in preparation for siege...a necessity, to be sure, but if you do something so cruelly pragmatic can you really complain about being hated? And honestly, a lot of people don't hate him because he's a dwarf, they hate him because he's an asshole--Tyrion is too obsessed with his wits vs a stature that he doesn't realize that more problems come from the former than the latter.

[danm_999]

Stoppin Cersei from fucking things up even more meant 'managing' Cersei properly. Which Tyrion didn't do. The tactic of 'tell three different stories' to see which person was leaking information might have been a smart one - except that the tale involved Myrcella. Regardless of who actually leaked the tale, the very fact that it involved Myrcella only served to alienate Cersei completely because it looked as though Tyrion was working against her, as he had dared to suggest a match for her daughter without consulting her. Which Tyrion, as Hand, had absolutely no right to do - he was not Regent, and not Myrcella's parent. Cersei may have taken that sort of thing from Tywin, but she certainly wouldn't, and didn't, from Tyrion. Tyrion should have been smart enough to work out some other tale that would have got back to Cersei and confirmed who the blabbermouth was, but not got her so utterly furious.

And Tyrion should definitely have used the Jaime card far more than he did. Jaime was the one person in KL whom Cersei trusted: Tyrion could and should have played on his safety and getting him returned in order to ensure Sansa's safety with Joffrey.

Tyrion speaks with the King's voice; he has the right to make that match.

[danm_999]

Which does not entail "working behind Cersei's back and trying to undermine her power". There are much better ways of bringing someone to heel than with force, just look at how LF and Varys operate. At the very least, Tyrion could have let the blame lay on someone else's shoulders--making his means and motives clear is never a strong move.

Varys and Littlefinger have a totally different goal; give Cersei as much power as she wants so she can cause chaos. Every terrible decision she makes they smile and nod and tell her how wise and pretty she is.

Tyrion cannot do this, since he's trying to stabilise the situation. He can't play the same game as they do, because he has to say no to many of her awful decisions. Littlefinger and Varys can tell Nero how awesome his fiddle playing is while Rome burns, while Tyrion actually has to run around putting out fires and earning Nero's chagrin.

[TNine]

He actually only proceeds once he has her consent. The initial business with Pycelle is a bluff to find Cersei's rat. She comes to him after, and finally agrees, and he thinks now he'll get the marriage alliance with Myrcella and Trystane.

He had already sold Myrcella off, and not only failed to wait until he had Cersei's consent but failed to inform Cersei at all. It's all about how Tyr is perceived, and if Cer wasn't on her toes before than she sure as hell is now. It frankly doesn't matter how Tyrion makes amends, the damage is done and Cer now (correctly) perceives Tyrion as a schemer that goes behind Cer's back.

Didn't try?

The problem isn't that he didn't try, the problem is who he's trying to befriend. Cersei is a person who surrounds herself with cronies, and anybody that has an independent thought or idea is immediatly a suspect in some shadow conspiracy. Look at the people she picks for her small council in AFFC, the most circumspect group ever.

Tyrion told Cer that he would tell her everything, then starts removing small council members and selling of princesses without Cersei's knowledge or consent. Tyrion burned this bridge himself.

Lacks teeth? Tyrion has plenty of force in King's Landing. He has the City Watch and the Mountain Clans.

And in ASOS, when those things leave him, all he has left are a bunch of enemies.

Tyrion does these things. He coerces Lancel to spy on Cersei

Good, actually a great play. The chances of backfire are outweighed by the benefit gained.

and feigns weakness with her by giving Pycelle back.

Cersei's doesn't care about Tyrion's power, merely his intentions. In fact, appearing weak now allows Cersei to believe that she has power of Tyrion, which makes her even more annoyed when he goes behind her back.

He uses Ser Cleos as a pawn to sneak in people to break Jaime out (though the ploy fails).

Which actually breaks trust with the Starks, and since it doesn't work i'll put that down as a failure.

He keeps Joffrey away from court with a crossbow.

Which he then utilizes in threatening Sansa and shooting at smallfolk, so a pretty meh effort. I think that this and keeping Cersei out of it with some laxatives were both good plays, but hardly amazing. Joff is hardly the most difficult person to distract.

He isn't just about threatening people with force.

His threats always stem from his own power, and that's his main method of coercion. He has other methods, but he relies on this one far too much.

Littlefinger is a better player than Tyrion. As Varys is.

And Tyrion is right to mistrust LF and could not remove either. He trust Varys too much though, imo.

Look at how Joffrey treats Tyrion when he arrives in King's Landing, before he's done any humiliating whatsoever.

I disagree "winning over" Joffrey was ever possible for Tyrion, especially since he'd need to indulge Joffrey in too many things Tyrion did not want to do (beating Sansa, treating the smallfolk abominably).

And judging by their exchange in AGOT, Tyr had been humiliating Joff for some time, too. Regardless, threatening the King with temporary force is not a good idea, and i don't think that manipulating Joff is really all that hard--Sansa does it pretty often, and look at how he treats her.

[Currawong]

Tyrion speaks with the King's voice; he has the right to make that match.

I think that is debatable. The king was not of age, and ruled through his regent (Cersei) and the small council. Tyrion was only the 'acting' Hand. In that delicate situation, and especially knowing his sister, he was stupid to try and use any sort of ruse that involved one of her children - it was 100% guaranteed to make her think he was working against her. It's ironic that in ASOS, Tyrion mocks Jaime about being blind as far as Cersei was concerned - and yet Tyrion proves to have been just as blind when dealing with her in ACOK.

ETA: I think Tyrion could have played the 'Uncle Jaime' card with Joffrey too, in quietly suggesting that Joffrey should be a little nicer to Sansa. We never see Jaime and Joffrey together, so although we know that Jaime doesn't actually 'love' Joffrey, we don't know what sort of influence he had on the kid. Probably much more than Tyrion though! especially as a KG member. Tyrion would have been very smart to play up the advantages of getting Jaime back safely, because then he has Uncle Jaime as the trusted LC of the KG. "But he executed King Aerys" says Joffrey. "King Aerys was mad - and you are not mad, are you. And besides, Jaime is your uncle, and he will do anything for his family."

[bicc8654]

Sending Myrcella to Dorne was very unnecessary and I was surprised when he really did it.It's well known the Dornish are not fond of Lannisters and I really doubt he thinks she would of been safer there.

That's definitely one of his worst moves,probably the one that really pushed Cersei over the edge with him.

Imagine someone sent your daughter away to pretty much be a hostage.

Other then that I love Tyrion.

[TNine]

Tyrion speaks with the King's voice; he has the right to make that match.

And Joff has every right to beat Sansa, and would have had every right to beat Marg. The right to do something is not a justification for doing it, and failing to entreat himself to Cersei and Joff definitely comes back to bite Tyrion in the ass.

Varys and Littlefinger have a totally different goal; give Cersei as much power as she wants so she can cause chaos. Every terrible decision she makes they smile and nod and tell her how wise and pretty she is.

Tyrion cannot do this, since he's trying to stabilise the situation. He can't play the same game as they do, because he has to say no to many of her awful decisions. Littlefinger and Varys can tell Nero how awesome his fiddle playing is while Rome burns, while Tyrion actually has to run around putting out fires and earning Nero's chagrin.

A lot of awful decisions that Cersei and Joff make stem because of suggestions made by Varys and LF. Tyrion needs to play that game--plant ideas in Cersei's head, and make her do what you want without her realizing it.

[danm_999]

And Tyrion should definitely have used the Jaime card far more than he did. Jaime was the one person in KL whom Cersei trusted: Tyrion could and should have played on his safety and getting him returned in order to ensure Sansa's safety with Joffrey. Even, at worst, a direct threat: "Dear sister, unless you do a little more to ensure that Sansa is protected and treated well, I'm afraid that the Starks will find out - and that might go very badly for our dear brother, mightn't it?" And if she had come back at him by saying that Tyrion would never do anything to betray Jaime, all Tyrion had to do was smile sweetly and say that he is not the only person around the court who can see what is going on with Sansa. And it would be such a shame if someone whispered to someone else, and those whispers ever reached Robb Stark ....

He does this:

Cersei frowned. “I haven’t given you leave to depart. I want to know how you intend to free Jaime.”

“I’ll tell you when I know. Schemes are like fruit, they require a certain ripening. Right now, I have a mind to ride through the streets and

take the measure of this city.” Tyrion rested his hand on the head of the sphinx beside the door. “One parting request. Kindly make certain no

harm comes to Sansa Stark. It would not do to lose both the daughters.”

Joffrey gets the message via Cersei:

“I’d shoot you too, but if I do Mother says they’d kill my uncle Jaime. Instead you’ll just be punished and we’ll send

word to your brother about what will happen to you if he doesn’t yield. Dog, hit her.”

And it's pretty much the only time they get mad together at someone.

Tyrion had stomached all he cared to. “The Others take your fucking cloaks! Take them off if you’re afraid to wear them, you bloody oaf

. . . but find me Sansa Stark or I swear, I’ll have Shagga split that ugly head of yours in two to see if there’s anything inside but black

pudding.”

Ser Boros went purple with rage. “You would call me ugly, you?” He started to raise the bloody sword still clutched in his mailed fist. Bronn

shoved Tyrion unceremoniously behind him.

“Stop it!” Cersei snapped. “Boros, you’ll do as you’re bid, or we’ll find someone else to wear that cloak. Your oath—”

Poor Boros Blount.

[danm_999]

And Joff has every right to beat Sansa, and would have had every right to beat Marg. The right to do something is not a justification for doing it, and failing to entreat himself to Cersei and Joff definitely comes back to bite Tyrion in the ass.

Nobody opposes Joffrey on his right to beat Sansa, they oppose him because it's politically stupid (it's like to get Jaime killed).

Marrying Myrcella to Trystane is not politically stupid.

A lot of awful decisions that Cersei and Joff make stem because of suggestions made by Varys and LF.Tyrion needs to play that game--plant ideas in Cersei's head, and make her do what you want without her realizing it.

What Varys and Littlefinger do is tend to suggest the ideas to Joffrey, who runs off and does them without Cersei's consent. Cersei sort of trusts Littlefinger, but she knows Varys is a snake.

[danm_999]

He had already sold Myrcella off, and not only failed to wait until he had Cersei's consent but failed to inform Cersei at all.

His plan was hinged on informing her in a way that makes it look like she's caught him with his hand in the cookie jar, then attaining her consent.

Let her flay half my face, it will be a small price to pay for her consent to the Dornish marriage. He would have that now, he could sense it.

It's all about how Tyr is perceived, and if Cer wasn't on her toes before than she sure as hell is now. It frankly doesn't matter how Tyrion makes amends, the damage is done and Cer now (correctly) perceives Tyrion as a schemer that goes behind Cer's back.

Which would be a problem if Tyrion's brief is to make Cersei happy. It isn't.

He tried appeasing Cersei, it doesn't work and the misrule continues. So he manipulates her.

Tyrion told Cer that he would tell her everything, then starts removing small council members and selling of princesses without Cersei's knowledge or consent. Tyrion burned this bridge himself.

Hey, I didn't say he persisted with the strategy of Cersei appeasement when it proved unworkable, I said that he did actually try to appease her a few times (disengeniously). But you don't appease a psychopath, you marginalise them.

And in ASOS, when those things leave him, all he has left are a bunch of enemies.

Well, yes, but largely because he gets played by some very powerful individuals.

Really the only residual enemy he has from using force in ACoK is Pycelle, and I do agree he should have simply killed Pycelle. The people who really screw him in ASoS; the Tyrells and Littlefinger, he's never lifted a finger against.

Cersei's doesn't care about Tyrion's power, merely his intentions.

She freaks out when she reads the letter naming his Hand, despite the fact she has no idea of his motivations.

Which actually breaks trust with the Starks, and since it doesn't work i'll put that down as a failure.

I'm skeptical of how highly Tyrion would have rated his trustworthiness in the eyes of the Starks (who likely may still believe he tried to kill Bran) against the chance of rescuing Jaime.

Certainly, I'd take the latter.

Which he then utilizes in threatening Sansa and shooting at smallfolk, so a pretty meh effort.

Joffrey's crossbow obsession happens before Tyrion gives Joffrey his new special crossbow to distract him. Joffrey is a crossbow enthusiast, after all. Tyrion gets the idea while Littlefinger is observing Joffrey fighting the hares, and the hares winning.

And judging by their exchange in AGOT, Tyr had been humiliating Joff for some time, too. Regardless, threatening the King with temporary force is not a good idea, and i don't think that manipulating Joff is really all that hard--Sansa does it pretty often, and look at how he treats her.

Sansa manages to manipulate Joffrey once that I can think of; making Ser Dontos a fool, and that only works because the Hound backs her up. The Hound certainly isn't helping Tyrion out.

[MikeL]

I find it funny how many of you are trying to ascribe morality to each of the characters. To me the whole point of GoT is about the lack of morality, by which I mean very few of these characters are immoral (by Westerosi standards anyway), but all of them, particularly Tyrion, are amoral. They all know what happens to truly moral people like Ned Stark (chewed up and spat out in short order). Everything Tyrion did, (and in fact each of them) was maneuvering for position. Tyrion never trusted Varys, but there was respect and calculation. At a certain point each of them knows they just have to roll the dice and see what happens. Several times this strategy worked for Tyrion, but then it backfired.