Tyrion Lannister, Hand of the King/Power Drunkard

[Scarlet Seastar]

When Tywin gave Tyrion the position of Hand of the Kind, and told him to rule, it didn't go to his head. It's like someone giving you the job of your dreams. He wanted to prove to Tywin that yes, even though he's an Imp and a dwarf he can serve House Lannister and the realm better than Cersei ever would.

Also, all that time he was saving Cersei's twincest ass. While Cersei responded with trying to kill him.

He never trusted Varys either. He knew it was a matter of time before the spider betrayed him.

He never trusted anyone, but didn't surround himself with fools who will listen to him like Cersei did in AFFC. He made use of them anyway.

And when Tywin returned, he acted as if Tyrion was just doing his job, and that he didn't need recognition or credit for it. That is the first thing that brings Tyrion to his fall from grace, in my opinion. In ADWD, he continues to show how no matter what he did, Tywin never gave him credit, on the contrary, he humiliated him. I think Tywin sent Tyrion in KL to rule, but with the hope that he might fail. Like, if Tyrion succeeds, fine, if he fails, bad for House Lannister, but even better for Tywin. Also, Tywin would have never consented if Tyrion sent men to the Wall. Tywin would have never deemed the rotten hand important. Tyrion did, but he was after all, following Tywin's orders.

[Natalie_S]

Yea, I get his whole "I'm underappreciated because I'm a dwarf" bit. To a point! He claims the victory at KL for himself, but he needed Aerys' wildfire, Ser Jacelyn Bywater, and then for Baelish to succeed in making the marriage alliance.

uhm, that's what commanders and rulers do, you know.

They organize stuff and they delegate: the duke of wellington didn't singlehandedly go and kill Napoleon's men with his bare hands but he still won the battle of Waterloo.

[Mulled Wino]

Ser Patrick. Again, tyrion had no Need revenge against Thorne. He already got his revenge at the wall. No need for it at Kings Landing.

[Grip]

Ser Patrick. Again, tyrion had no Need revenge against Thorne. He already got his revenge at the wall. No need for it at Kings Landing.

Agreed, Tyrion was just being petty here. If anything he should have realised that given the reputation of the NW if there is anything they need its less contempt and mockery from the influential men and women at court. Tyrions seems to have failed to realise this, despite his concerns.. Tyrions actions can thus be seen as degrading what is already a pretty much despied order even more..

[Mulled Wino]

Ser patrick. You dont think that Ned backing Stannis for the throne was a direct threat to Cersei's kids?

[Mulled Wino]

No, he didn't. He ruled pretty well, considering he was dealing with a crisis with limited resources and facing deliberate sabotage from his sweet sister. He wasn't all about revenge, what kind of foolishness is that? Was the replacement of Janos Slynt for a competent Commander revenge? Was the chain in the Blackwater Bay revenge? Was his plan to use the wildfyre revenge?

If you actually did read my post, instead of pretending, you would notice, on the fourth line, this particular piece:

That word after the slash? It reads "revenge".

No, they can't offer more. The KL'ers aren't slaves of the Crown. Tyrion can't force them to enlist. He can give the Watch the criminals in the dungeons, as some sort of alternate punishment, or at least that's the reasoning behind it, but he can do any more than that. It's up to the KL'ers if they go or not. Tyrion could encourage them to go, but the wwatch doesn't want women or children. They want men, able men. And able men are more mouths to feed, yes, but they're also arms to fight. The city was to be besieged. You don't send out potential soldiers like that. You don't send out potential soldiers like that to fight zombies without proof they exist.

You keep insisting Tywin would sort everything out, ignoring the fact that, if not for Tyrion's actions - like protecting the city and keeping Cersei from burning it to the ground - there would be nothing left for Tywin to "sort out". At best half the city would be Stannis' by that time.

If the Queen is a dumb fool and this someone is assisting her and directly undermining my plans to saver her ass, yes, this is someone you throw in the Black Cells. Past accomplishments don't keep you from being a rival.

Lancel was a weak-willed young man who could be manipulated. Pycelle is different. Lancel wasn't in the Small Council. Pycelle was. It was a different case. Pycelle was rating out information to Cersei, sensible information, and there was no way Tyrion could be sure he would keep doing that. So he remove him from the board. Of course, you'll see that's because Tyrion was drunk on power and wanted revenge on Pycelle for... Something, but given that there's no textual evidence for this...

And oh, Ned Stark was trying to get Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen killed. Precious. Pro-tip: If Ned Stark wanted Cersei and her kids dead, they would be dead.

If he endorses the nw, perhaps they would get more recruits. Again, you keep saying they desparetely need soldiers, then why does tyrion send off all the red cloaks. Or are you going to continually ignore that textual example.

The textual evidence for tyrion going to far is all of the stuff pycelle admits he did for house lannister. Tyrion should have kept him around- he's clearly tywin's guy and he could feed him whatever info he wanted that he would know would get back to cersei. You know- tywin the true Hand. Its more important to know your enemies in this case than to punish them because there's a high likelihood of future problems.

[Mulled Wino]

Tyrion was always a jerk right from the start of AGOT IMO (breaking Maryllion's fingers because he was singing sarcastic songs about him is a good example of this), he just had more power later on.

But his attitude sure gets more grating in the latter part of ACOK and ASOS. He kept talking and thinking how he saved KL basically by himself and seems pissed that he didn't have a statue built in his honor and a triumphant procession through the city or something like this. Tywin gave him one of the top jobs in the realm (Master of Coin) and he was all "I deserve much better than this".

Excellent post, let me add that He was all pissed tywin was in the hands' quarters. Duh, where was the Hand suppossed to be?

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I think Tyrions biggest mistake -- which began way before he was Hand -- was offending people who were higher than he was on the power food chain, especially Joffrey. Yes, the kid was an obnoxious little shit, but he was an obnoxious little shit who came with his own murderous sworn shield, then later, a band of knights who would do anything, anything, he ordered, and then even later would become absolute monarch. So when he slapped Joffrey, it was like slapping a ticking time bomb, and he was warned about that as far back as AGOT by Sandor. And worst of all, he commited a lot of his offenses in front of plenty of witnesses. What made him think he could get away with this behavior forever?

You'd think that Tyrion, of all people, would understand the effects of humiliation on a person, considering the feelings of resentment and the desire for revenge he felt.

So by the time of the Purple Wedding in ASOS Tyrion finds himself without a power base, ostracized by his family, friendless and squarely in the sights of a little psycho ruler who has already planned at least one murder. Joffrey would have gotten him killed if he hadn't been killed himself, and then, because he had offended and disappointed Tywin, Cersei and just about everyone else in King's Landing, he was easily framed for Joffrey's murder.

[Currawong]

I think Tyrions biggest mistake -- which began way before he was Hand -- was offending people who were higher than he was on the power food chain, especially Joffrey.

Yes, there's that old saying about being careful who you offend on your way up the tree, because they are the very people who you might need on your way down when you fall from your lofty perch,

[The Knight of Onions]

For his entire life Tyrion has very much been at the bottom of the pile; I'm sure he enjoys some power. Also, to those saying Tyrion using humour as a weapon is bad, he has nothing else to use, so I don't blame him

[Naathi Prince]

I think Tyrions biggest mistake -- which began way before he was Hand -- was offending people who were higher than he was on the power food chain, especially Joffrey. Yes, the kid was an obnoxious little shit, but he was an obnoxious little shit who came with his own murderous sworn shield, then later, a band of knights who would do anything, anything, he ordered, and then even later would become absolute monarch. So when he slapped Joffrey, it was like slapping a ticking time bomb, and he was warned about that as far back as AGOT by Sandor. And worst of all, he commited a lot of his offenses in front of plenty of witnesses. What made him think he could get away with this behavior forever?

You'd think that Tyrion, of all people, would understand the effects of humiliation on a person, considering the feelings of resentment and the desire for revenge he felt.

So by the time of the Purple Wedding in ASOS Tyrion finds himself without a power base, ostracized by his family, friendless and squarely in the sights of a little psycho ruler who has already planned at least one murder. Joffrey would have gotten him killed if he hadn't been killed himself, and then, because he had offended and disappointed Tywin, Cersei and just about everyone else in King's Landing, he was easily framed for Joffrey's murder.

Yep, Joffrey might be a little shit, but its not worth pissing him off for anything.

[1234567]

For his entire life Tyrion has very much been at the bottom of the pile; I'm sure he enjoys some power. Also, to those saying Tyrion using humour as a weapon is bad, he has nothing else to use, so I don't blame him

Apart from his Sellsword and Clansmen. He could also have tried to build alliances. Instead of imprisoning Pycelle, as soon as he knew he was working for Cersei, he could have used him to feed her false information or the info he wanted via Pycelle.

I think Tyrions biggest mistake -- which began way before he was Hand -- was offending people who were higher than he was on the power food chain, especially Joffrey. Yes, the kid was an obnoxious little shit, but he was an obnoxious little shit who came with his own murderous sworn shield, then later, a band of knights who would do anything, anything, he ordered, and then even later would become absolute monarch. So when he slapped Joffrey, it was like slapping a ticking time bomb, and he was warned about that as far back as AGOT by Sandor. And worst of all, he commited a lot of his offenses in front of plenty of witnesses. What made him think he could get away with this behavior forever?

You'd think that Tyrion, of all people, would understand the effects of humiliation on a person, considering the feelings of resentment and the desire for revenge he felt.

So by the time of the Purple Wedding in ASOS Tyrion finds himself without a power base, ostracized by his family, friendless and squarely in the sights of a little psycho ruler who has already planned at least one murder. Joffrey would have gotten him killed if he hadn't been killed himself, and then, because he had offended and disappointed Tywin, Cersei and just about everyone else in King's Landing, he was easily framed for Joffrey's murder.

Not to mention that at the bearkfast he practically told Joff he knew that Joff had sent the assassin to kill Bran. So having worked this, and realizing that in 3 years he was a dead man and might have to flee to Essos, so what does he do at the wedding when the King asks him to joust? Does he make an excuse? Or try to politely get out of it? No his first course of action is to humiliate the King (who he knows is psychotic) in front of 1,000 guests.

[LordBloodraven]

Not to mention that at the bearkfast he practically told Joff he knew that Joff had sent the assassin to kill Bran. So having worked this, and realizing that in 3 years he was a dead man and might have to flee to Essos, so what does he do at the wedding when the King asks him to joust? Does he make an excuse? Or try to politely get out of it? No his first course of action is to humiliate the King (who he knows is psychotic) in front of 1,000 guests.

Hey, it was unwise but Joff had it coming. I think he acted impulsively with that quip; like he was angry at being mocked and thrashed him in front of his guests. Not much premeditation.

I agree with the OP though. Tyrion was good at being Hand of the King but he liked that power, perhaps too much. The Thorne incident was funny but kind of unnecessary. For Pycelle, I can't fault him; the guy rats to Cersei and given the context of ACOK, he could easily rat to another player on the ascending. There's no way to be sure of his loyalty in difficult times. And concerning Janos Slynt, I think it was more Public Relations than anything else. King's Landing was besieged and unreliable upstarts like Janos Slynt seemed to be the ones behind the power. That was bad press and even Tywin Lannister was flaggerbasted by that.

But yeah, he's kind of a power drunkard. I didn't understand the need to make a sigil with hands, given that your position is temporary. The way he discarded the Antler Men to Joff during the battle was unnecessary. There are some moments that I recall from ACOK that showed his arrogance at times

[LordBloodraven]

Excellent post, let me add that He was all pissed tywin was in the hands' quarters. Duh, where was the Hand suppossed to be?

This is one of those moments. You're not the Hand, Tyrion.

[Ser_Patreck]

Ser Patrick. Again, tyrion had no Need revenge against Thorne. He already got his revenge at the wall. No need for it at Kings Landing.

Revenge is never needed. It's something people want, tough. Tyrion wanted Revenge against Thorne. He got it. I'm still to understand how did that destroyed King's Landing or made him a poor ruler...

If he endorses the nw, perhaps they would get more recruits. Again, you keep saying they desparetely need soldiers, then why does tyrion send off all the red cloaks. Or are you going to continually ignore that textual example.

The textual evidence for tyrion going to far is all of the stuff pycelle admits he did for house lannister. Tyrion should have kept him around- he's clearly tywin's guy and he could feed him whatever info he wanted that he would know would get back to cersei. You know- tywin the true Hand. Its more important to know your enemies in this case than to punish them because there's a high likelihood of future problems.

Why should he endorse the Night's Watch? "Yeah,guys,there are, totally, zombies up there, and you should go and fight them. Word". No. He'd be a fool, and treated like a fool. He did all he needed to.

And IIRC, he sent the Red Cloaks away to protect his nephews. Hardly something I'd fault him for.

I'm tired of repeating myself about Pycelle. Go reread the part where it's explicitly stated that Pycelle is Cersei's creature.

Not to mention that at the bearkfast he practically told Joff he knew that Joff had sent the assassin to kill Bran. So having worked this, and realizing that in 3 years he was a dead man and might have to flee to Essos, so what does he do at the wedding when the King asks him to joust? Does he make an excuse? Or try to politely get out of it? No his first course of action is to humiliate the King (who he knows is psychotic) in front of 1,000 guests.

Totally worth it. I wanted to see Joffrey's face when the entire court laughed at him.

Apart from his Sellsword and Clansmen. He could also have tried to build alliances. Instead of imprisoning Pycelle, as soon as he knew he was working for Cersei, he could have used him to feed her false information or the info he wanted via Pycelle.

Pycelle was in the Small Council. You people get it, right? Unless he wanted to make all reunions of what's effectively the Cabinet into mummers' farces, and thus rule without any support fro, say, the Master of Coin or of Whisperers, he had to remove Pycelle.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Apart from his Sellsword and Clansmen. He could also have tried to build alliances. Instead of imprisoning Pycelle, as soon as he knew he was working for Cersei, he could have used him to feed her false information or the info he wanted via Pycelle.

Not to mention that at the bearkfast he practically told Joff he knew that Joff had sent the assassin to kill Bran. So having worked this, and realizing that in 3 years he was a dead man and might have to flee to Essos, so what does he do at the wedding when the King asks him to joust? Does he make an excuse? Or try to politely get out of it? No his first course of action is to humiliate the King (who he knows is psychotic) in front of 1,000 guests.

Yet another problem: because he's so busy acting out and mouthing off, Tyrion's idiosyncrasies are well know and he's easily played. Everyone knows, it seems, his weakness for working girls, and they (Cersei, Tywin, the minstrel) try to manipulate him through his women. Everyone knows that he's Lannister Proud ©, hates to be mocked, and is hyper-sensitive about being a dwarf. LF took all these things and turned them into the PW entertainment fiasco, and very nearly got Tyrion killed, and so forth. Tyrion would have been better served by developing a poker face than by developing his "wit."

How could Tyrion have deflected Joff at the PW? IMO, that was a perfect time to call on The Power of Daddy, because Tywin was the only one who could control Joff with a word (most of the time). "Thank you, Your Grace, but I think the Lord Hand would prefer if guests ate dinner and the entertainment moved on," . . . or some such shite. Of course, that would mean an entirely different story . . .

[Mulled Wino]

Revenge is never needed. It's something people want, tough. Tyrion wanted Revenge against Thorne. He got it. I'm still to understand how did that destroyed King's Landing or made him a poor ruler...

Why should he endorse the Night's Watch? "Yeah,guys,there are, totally, zombies up there, and you should go and fight them. Word". No. He'd be a fool, and treated like a fool. He did all he needed to.

And IIRC, he sent the Red Cloaks away to protect his nephews. Hardly something I'd fault him for.

I'm tired of repeating myself about Pycelle. Go reread the part where it's explicitly stated that Pycelle is Cersei's creature.

Totally worth it. I wanted to see Joffrey's face when the entire court laughed at him.

And im telling you tyrion already got his revenge. I even told you the passage. This is not revenge its cruelty. Go reread tyrions chapters at the wall. Specifically, when they are eating the crabs from eastwatch.

Pycelle was in the Small Council. You people get it, right? Unless he wanted to make all reunions of what's effectively the Cabinet into mummers' farces, and thus rule without any support fro, say, the Master of Coin or of Whisperers, he had to remove Pycelle.

Double post.

[Mulled Wino]

Revenge is never needed. It's something people want, tough. Tyrion wanted Revenge against Thorne. He got it. I'm still to understand how did that destroyed King's Landing or made him a poor ruler...

Why should he endorse the Night's Watch? "Yeah,guys,there are, totally, zombies up there, and you should go and fight them. Word". No. He'd be a fool, and treated like a fool. He did all he needed to.

And IIRC, he sent the Red Cloaks away to protect his nephews. Hardly something I'd fault him for.

I'm tired of repeating myself about Pycelle. Go reread the part where it's explicitly stated that Pycelle is Cersei's creature.

Totally worth it. I wanted to see Joffrey's face when the entire court laughed at him.

Pycelle was in the Small Council. You people get it, right? Unless he wanted to make all reunions of what's effectively the Cabinet into mummers' farces, and thus rule without any support fro, say, the Master of Coin or of Whisperers, he had to remove Pycelle.

Go reread the part about what pycelle did for house lannister. The major things were for tywin. Just so happens he's cersei's creature right niw because tywin isnt in kl. when tywin got there, pycelle would serve him.

Tell you what, please dont ever offer to endorse anything or try and sell anything. You'd be an abject failure.

Ane im proving to you it wasnt revenge. It was cruelty. Tyrion got his recenge. Maybe you should reread his chapters at the walll. Specifically the part where they eat the crabs from Eastwatch.

[Mulled Wino]

Pycelle was in the Small Council. You people get it, right? Unless he wanted to make all reunions of what's effectively the Cabinet into mummers' farces, and thus rule without any support fro, say, the Master of Coin or of Whisperers, he had to remove Pycelle.

No he didnt. What did removing pycelle change?

[Ser_Patreck]

Go reread the part about what pycelle did for house lannister. The major things were for tywin. Just so happens he's cersei's creature right niw because tywin isnt in kl. when tywin got there, pycelle would serve him.

As things stood, Tywin wasn't there. Hence, Pycelle was Cersei's creature. Hence, he had to be removed.

Tell you what, please dont ever offer to endorse anything or try and sell anything. You'd be an abject failure.

And what does this particular... Piece of advice has anythign to do with what we're discussing?

Ane im proving to you it wasnt revenge. It was cruelty. Tyrion got his recenge. Maybe you should reread his chapters at the walll. Specifically the part where they eat the crabs from Eastwatch.

It's strange, you was saying it was revenge some posts ago.

Oh, well, doesn't matter. He was a jackass to someone who was a jackass. Fair is fair.

Pycelle was in the Small Council. You people get it, right? Unless he wanted to make all reunions of what's effectively the Cabinet into mummers' farces, and thus rule without any support fro, say, the Master of Coin or of Whisperers, he had to remove Pycelle.

No he didnt. What did removing pycelle change?

For a start? Cersei wasn't informed of his plans and as such couldn't take steps to ruin them.