Tyrion Lannister, Hand of the King/Power Drunkard

[The Frosted King]

I thought the Pycelle thing was really nasty, and even though Janos slynt was a total jerk, I don't know that it was a good move to dump him either (there may be some nuance to that situation that I am forgetting though). You don't hold onto power by crapping on the people who help your family, whether you like them or not. I get that he thought they were too close to Cercei, but like it or not, he and Cercei were technically on the same side. I also thought the move he pulled with Tommen was a bit over-the-top. And as despicable as Joffrey was, I'm not sure it was a good idea to be so openly disrespectful to him either - a little honey instead of vinegar might have been more effective.

Pycelle had it coming, and worse since he'd broken every vow he'd made as a maester, and he watched good men die to carry out a lie.

Only wish Shagga took his head when he swung, rather than his beard.

[Foxhound]

Your missing the point. All the things you listed are still bad in the world of ASOIF. What Tyrion did is was normal though and went along with cultural standards in Essos.

Tyrion is not from Essos, he from Westeros where slavery is considered an abomination and where selling slaves will get a Lord's head chopped off.

[l3ol3o]

To add to this, Tyrion was a dwarf and a freak. According to Westeros, Tywin would have been completely justified by having him killed. It would have been perfectly normal.

Yet, this argument doesn't make sense to us, does it?

You just made my point for me. Whats normal in the ASOIAF world would be considered terrible in our 21st century world.

They are two very different places were very different standards and customs. You can't hold the characters in the book to 21st century standards or pretty much all of them would be considered criminals.

For me this is part of what makes this series so great. Morally is so much different from our world that is makes for fascinating reading.

He did not sleep with alaya because in his opinion shae was better looking, he even thinks as much to himself. Regarding cercei, she says lots of things, I think she is wrong on this one. If he wants to feel loved so badly why not just hang around jaime, or keep the same girl around? He goes through women vey quickly shae seems an anomaly.

He does keep the same girls around. Tysha and Shae? He realises its all a fantasy though and they only love his gold. He's learned by now that he no one will ever love him for his looks or who he is. They will love him for his gold and power.

[E-Ro]

What Gregor did is looked down upon in the ASOIAF world.

What Tywin did is also looked down upon.

Murder and breaking guest rights are looked down upon.

Theon is despised for what he did.

Ramsey is also hated.

Your missing the point. All the things you listed are still bad in the world of ASOIF. What Tyrion did is was normal though and went along with cultural standards in Essos.

1) By some but robert seems ok with it, he did not get punished, it was legal.

2)By the riverlords, and no one else because they were on the receiving end. They were ok with robb burning the west.

3)Ok, that was a bad example.

4) By northmen, and no one else. Once again they were on the recieving end, they would be ok with robb kiling joff.

5)By who? He is the lord its perfectly legal for him to do as he wishes with the smallfolk.

Sorry, but I disagree with you on everything Tyrion is not my cup of tea, even if he is a dwarf.

TV tyrion is cool, though.

[Ser_Patreck]

*Cracks knuckles*

Man talk about power going to your head. He's just a few examples of why Tyrion would likely be a Questionable king.

I was always a little put off by Tyrion being all pissed when Tywin rescued the city and took his rightful position as Kings hand, but I had forgotten all the little signs of what a entitled brat Tyrion was becoming. A few examples:

"Tyrion looked down on them all, and found he liked it."

Yeap. Problem being? People that are put down and underestimated tend to like the feeling that comes with the sense of power. More for the inherent recognition of worth than anything else.

The way Tyrion treats Ser Allister. Sure Allister's a cawk, but its not like Mormont would send him with a fake tale of dead men rising. So Tyrion gives him the pick of empty dungeons and publicly mocks Thorne. He could have actually given him some help to recruit in the city besides just telling Thorne to go find people. He disrespected Mormont, Jon, Aemon and the rest of the men he befriended at the wall.

Allister Thorn is a pompous, arrogant fool and Tyrion did right in taking him down a peg or two. I can't remember any interactions, but going by the way he treats Jon, Sam, Grenn and the others, I bet he was an ass to Tyrion. A Lannister pays his debts.

Tyrion gave him the dungeons. That's what Ned gave Yoren. The Crown doesn't really try to actively encourage men to go to the Watch. You can argue the stupidity of that, considering you omniscient (Or nigh-omniscient) perspective, but it's a fact. Actually, given the fact that the city would soon come under siege, sending able-bodied men away would be rather dumb.

And what disrespect was given to Maester Aemon or the others here?

He starts noticing dumb stuff like Cleos going bald once he got a little public power.

Nope. Tyrion has always been a perceptive fellow. The fact he noticed something when he was in power doesn't mean he noticed that something because he was in power. How do you say, correlation doesn't imply causation?

The crap he pulled with Pycelle was another error. Once he found out Pycelle was a rat, AND that he was a major pawn for house Lannister, he erred throwing him in the black cells. An example of him getting overconfident. He was clearly his fathers creature and the sin of spying for Cersei was nothing compared to all the help he had given house Lannister.

Considering that his father sent him to King's Landing precisely to cull Cersei's excesses, doing away with someone that was spying for her, and thus making his own work more difficult, seem the reasonable thing to do.He incapacitated a rival piece. Hardly overconfident.

I think that does it for the OP. Now let's jump in through 4 pages of... Something.

[E-Ro]

He does keep the same girls around. Tysha and Shae? He realises its all a fantasy though and they only love his gold. He's learned by now that he no one will ever love him for his looks or who he is. They will love him for his gold and power.

How long was he with tysha? A month? Since then he has had numerous paid women ending with shae.

[danm_999]

I think Tyrion did a very good job running King's Landing, and I think while he definitely got a taste for power that was very pleasant to him, but kept a level head and did more good than bad. Some examples;

• Recognising the city's starvation, he forbid feasting in the Red Keep.
  
• Removes Janos Slynt from the Small Council. Has Allar Deem, Mr Ask-No-Questions-About-Baby-Murdering assassinated.
  
• Gives Allister Thorne men for the Night's Watch, and creates favourable propaganda for the allure of joining the Night's Watch (albeit by humiliating Throne).
  
• Binds the Dornish and House Tyrell to the Iron Throne.
  
• Personally leads the sortie on the King's Gate after the Hound pussies out.
  
• Saves King's Landing from a very nasty sack from Stannis (and likely a nasty counter sack by Tywin and the Tyrells) with his chain.
  

Tyrion is honestly, too competant to be kept in power, which is why Littlefinger conspires to have him removed twice (likely with Mandon Moore, second time by framing him for Joffrey's murder by suggesting the dwarf show at the Purple Wedding). Meanwhile, every major player in the game is trying to keep Cersei IN power, because she does a horrible job at it.

[Stark Raving Ned]

derp, turned up about two pages too late

[Florina Laufeyson]

What Gregor did is looked down upon in the ASOIAF world.

What Tywin did is also looked down upon.

Murder and breaking guest rights are looked down upon.

Theon is despised for what he did.

Ramsey is also hated.

Your missing the point. All the things you listed are still bad in the world of ASOIF. What Tyrion did is was normal though and went along with cultural standards in Essos.

Theres also something called http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeliberateValuesDissonance. Srsly, this is what Martin was aiming for.

[Ser_Patreck]

I must be alone in the opinion that i think Pycelle had it coming. He was a simpering yes-man and that was annoying. But that business DID end up biting Tyrion square on the hindquarters. The only thing that really bugged me about Tyrion's arc as Hand was the Shae business. That was just...so freaking dumb. (Gawd i hated Shae...)

Also his whole admitting he killed Joffery...uhmmm...no man, you really didnt. Why does he keep saying he did?

Agreed on the first paragraph.

About admitting to killing Joffrey, he does it first to Jaime, I believe, as a deliberate way of causing pain. Then he goes along with it because he's finally embracing the Imp persona completely - If people will believe him a monster no matter, hell, let's humor them.

[l3ol3o]

How long was he with tysha? A month? Since then he has had numerous paid women ending with shae.

I'm honestly not sure about Tysha. The reason he isn't with women longer though is because of Tywin. Tyrion wants whores to feel loved and to Tywin it's unacceptable for a Lannister to be seen with whores. If it was up to Tyrion I think he would have stayed with Tysha and Shae for a long time even though he knew it was all a delusion.

[E-Ro]

I'm honestly not sure about Tysha. The reason he isn't with women longer though is because of Tywin. Tyrion wants whores to feel loved and to Tywin it's unacceptable for a Lannister to be seen with whores. If it was up to Tyrion I think he would have stayed with Tysha and Shae for a long time even though he knew it was all a delusion.

Ok, I can understand that, maybe pre adwd tyrion did want to feel love. But the same thing can not be said of adwd tyrion.

[danm_999]

Ok, I can understand that, maybe pre adwd tyrion did want to feel love. But the same thing can not be said of adwd tyrion.

Pre-ADWD is definitely looking for the "girlfriend experience" with Shae and his whores.

[Field of Asphodel]

He did not sleep with alaya because in his opinion shae was better looking, he even thinks as much to himself. Regarding cercei, she says lots of things, I think she is wrong on this one. If he wants to feel loved so badly why not just hang around jaime, or keep the same girl around? He goes through women vey quickly shae seems an anomaly.

He was attracted to Alayaya and was annoyed when he learned Bronn had slept with her. I think he reflected that he'd wanted to have sex with Alayaya but had refrained 'cause he isn't all about sex. (Bronn, by contrast, is an amoral thug who does only see prostitutes cause he likes sex.) If Tyrion only cared about sex, he would've had sex with pretty Alayaya and prettier Shae, though we may have to agree to disagree.

Jaime is his brother and a man. Tyrion wants to experience filial love and romance, two separate things. He tried keeping the same girl around. It didn't work. A different girl each time helps to preserve the illusion of desirability and love.

[Kittykatknits]

You just made my point for me. Whats normal in the ASOIAF world would be considered terrible in our 21st century world.

They are two very different places were very different standards and customs. You can't hold the characters in the book to 21st century standards or pretty much all of them would be considered criminals.

For me this is part of what makes this series so great. Morally is so much different from our world that is makes for fascinating reading.

See, but if he had actually done it, we would be upset and appalled as modern readers. It's wrong.

Tyrion gave him the dungeons. That's what Ned gave Yoren. The Crown doesn't really try to actively encourage men to go to the Watch. You can argue the stupidity of that, considering you omniscient (Or nigh-omniscient) perspective, but it's a fact. Actually, given the fact that the city would soon come under siege, sending able-bodied men away would be rather dumb.

No, Ned did more than that. He tried to find volunteers for the NW first but no one volunteered. After this, he gave Yoren access to the dungeons.

How long was he with tysha? A month? Since then he has had numerous paid women ending with shae.

Two weeks.

About admitting to killing Joffrey, he does it first to Jaime, I believe, as a deliberate way of causing pain. Then he goes along with it because he's finally embracing the Imp persona completely - If people will believe him a monster no matter, hell, let's humor them.

This is correct. He first says it to Jaime and then feels bad about it, almost changing his mind. In the end, he decides not to tell the truth. In Dance, he repeatedly admits to killing Joff even though he didn't. I think it's more evidence of him deciding whether or not to embrace the monster inside him in Dance which is really his major character arc in that book.

[l3ol3o]

1) By some but robert seems ok with it, he did not get punished, it was legal.

2)By the riverlords, and no one else because they were on the receiving end. They were ok with robb burning the west.

3)Ok, that was a bad example.

4) By northmen, and no one else. Once again they were on the recieving end, they would be ok with robb kiling joff.

5)By who? He is the lord its perfectly legal for him to do as he wishes with the smallfolk.

Sorry, but I disagree with you on everything Tyrion is not my cup of tea, even if he is a dwarf.

TV tyrion is cool, though.

I guess the best way to explain my point would be this example.

Today its perfectly normal for women to have premaritial sex. Most women are virigins on their wedding night. This is perfectly normal in the 21st century.

Take this concept to the world of ASOIAF. Do you think Joffrey would marry Sansa if she had multiple sex partners? Nope. She would be "undesirible". She would even be called a whore for this. These are two different cultural norms. Women back then were excepted to be virgins on their wedding night.

Slavery is an abomination to our standards but in Essos it's perfectly normal. It's the system there and the characters are acting within the system. What Tyrion did was perfecly normal and legal. As a 21st century reader he is abusing slaves but to Tyrion he's paying for a sex just like every other man in Essos.

I don't anyone to think I'm ok with slavery. GRRM made it perfectly acceptable in his series though and it is his series and the characters that live in them that we are discussing. I had a hard time reading many parts of the series that were cultural norms for the people of ASOIAF. Just because I didn't like what I read, I don't think it would be fair for me to criticize a character for doing something that is perfectly normal.

[l3ol3o]

See, but if he had actually done it, we would be upset and appalled as modern readers. It's wrong.

Exactly. If Tywin just left Tyrion for the dogs I would be disgusted. It doesn't mean what he did would be "wrong" by ASOIAF standards though. I actually think it was pretty common for defected babies to be abandoned because of superstition.

I have a hard time comdeming a character for doing something that is perfectly normal by ASOIAF standards but completely wrong by 21st century standards because what they are doing that is "wrong" to us isn't "wrong" to them.

[Kittykatknits]

Exactly. If Tywin just left Tyrion for the dogs I would be disgusted. It doesn't mean what he did would be "wrong" by ASOIAF standards though. I actually think it was pretty common for defected babies to be abandoned because of superstition.

I have a hard time comdeming a character for doing something that is perfectly normal by ASOIAF standards but completely wrong by 21st century standards because what they are doing that is "wrong" to us isn't "wrong" to them.

Except you shouldn't be disgusted..according to ASOIAF standards, he would have been doing the right thing.

[TNine]

I think that a lot of what Tyrion did in KL during ACOK and ASOS was stupid and poorly thought-out, and honestly his "game-playing prowess" is not nearly as great as he is given credit for.

When he enters KL, there are six main people he has to deal with:

Cercei

Joffrey

Slynt

Littlefinger

Pycelle

Varys

Let's start with Slynt. Slynt is not particularly smart, not above backstabbing, and unaccustomed to court life. However, he owes everything he has to the Lannisters and considers them allies. No action needs to be taken against him, although if Tyrion wants to try to appear as a powerful player he can remove him. IMO, this is not the correct course of action, but i'll get to why later.

Littlefinger is next. He appears mischievous but he is actually far, far worse. He is a clever, conniving, backstabbing player who will ruthlessly play factions against eachother and plunge the entire realm into war to improve his position. Tyrion is one of the few who recognize that he is a pretty big threat (albeit still doesn't give him credit as the biggest threat in the court), but LF would be hard to remove and has use. Tyrion should have removed him in a second (and his failure to do so resulted in Tyr getting framed to regicide), but i can understand his failure to do so.

Pycelle. The loyal servant to house Lannister. Indubitably a threat, but he can be won over fairly well with the promise of Tywin's favor--there is no doubt in anyone's mind that Tywin will be the one ruling in KL at the end of the war (at least as long as Joff is king).

Varys. He distorts information and gives you enough to screw yourself over. Tyrion is a fool to trust him with anything, although Varys is simply to useful to remove (and doing so would be impossible). But Tyr makes a massive mistake in trust Varys far too much.

Now the main two fuck-ups:

Cercei. She loves her children and mistrusts Tyrion. Cercei will remain in power for quite some time, and Tyr and Cer are on the same side whether they like it or not: they both want Jaime back and if KL falls they both lose their heads. Tyrion should have been trying to win Cersei's trust, convince her that she must help Tyrion for the children's sake. This approach might not work, but it is a HELL of a lot better than going behind Cersei's back and marrying Myrcella off to Dorne--going to Cersei first with that plan would be far better, making it clear you are doing it to protect Myrcella. I think that Tyr could also have pushed protecting Sansa onto Cer's back--make it clear that if it continues Jaime will face horrible consequences and Cer will be forced to do it.

Joff. Tyrion's handling of Joff was wrong in every imaginable way and i can't sympathize all that much with Tyr's treatment by Joff in ASOS because it was all preventable and Tyr should have seen it coming. Joff is a meglomaniac sadist petty powerdrunk dumbass king, you don't deal with MSPPDKs by humiliating them in open court nor do you throw them to the ground and start kicking him...there's no excuse for doing something so stupid. Tyr knew damn well that Joff would come into power, that he would hold a grudge against Tyr if he did those actions, and that he would revel in torturing Tyr. There are plenty of ways of dealing with MSPPDKs that don't involve cowing them with power--something that doesn't work all that well on Joff since he doesn't consider the consequences of his actions, nor is it sustainable since Tyrion's power only flows from Tywin's absence and even if Tywin wanted to protect Tyr, Joff would come into his own eventually.

Edited to finish: Tyrion's problem is pride. He wants to be the powerhouse, the one who calls the shots, and wants to exert his influence in that way. Notice how other great game-players (Littlefinger and Varys most notably) don't care if they come off as powerful, instead of exerting power they exert influence. Tyr doesn't want to manipulate Joff, he wants to rule him. He likes cornering and eliminating enemies, but to be a strong player he needs to be able to work through proxy--always keep your hands clean.

[Mulled Wino]

I think you've completely misunderstood what happened between Tyrion and Thorne, in almost the exact same way that Alliser himself misunderstood.

The Iron Throne could not be seen to be chasing after wild tales of dead men rising while the city was under threat of attack and there were no people in the dunegons to give to Alliser. Tyrion mocked him in court true, and then he let it be known throughout the city that the Nightswatch would take volunteers and provide food and shelter for them.

In a city that was already suffering from starvation due to the war, this meant that large amounts of the smallfolk would be more then eager to join the Nightswatch and get a garanteed meal and roof.

Tyrion himself thinks this while he says it and Varys even congratulates Tyrion on his handling of the situation afterwards.

I think you completely misunderstood my interpretation of it. I very much understood what you posted. Tyrion actually did almlst nothing as there was no one in the dungeons and its too dangerous in the streets to go searching for volunteers with no protection. Varys was kissing ass, clearly. I mean, are you really taking what varys says in public seriously?