What are the odds of Sansa and Tyrion ending up together?

[brashcandy]

1) In the context of these books, marriages and other romantic relationships based on attraction between the parties generally don't work out, and often lead to disaster. Examples include: Robb and Jeyne; Rhaegar and Lyanna; Jon and Ygrette. In the context of this series (i'm not saying it is true in real life), arranged marriages work out better. The best marriage by far is Ned & Cat. This was an arranged marriage, and neither was the other's first choice (Cat originally preferred Brandon; Ned apparently had some kind of crush on Ashara Dayne). I think the pattern of Cat and Ned will carry on to Sansa and Tyrion. I think each will have had another "first love" (Tyrion & Tysha; Sandor & Sansa), but it will be Sansa & Tyrion in the end.

*shudder* Involuntary physical reactions aside, I just want to clarify, Tyrion's and Sansa's marriage was not arranged, it was forced. You cannot argue that just because other relationships based on attraction ended tragically that somehow this makes their relationship fated to work. Well you could, but it would make no sense. And the marriage enjoyed by Sansa's parents has no bearing on them either. Sansa detests Tyrion's appearance. I mean, I don't think people quite grasp this. Even if by some crazy circumstance she decided she wanted to remain married to him to bring "peace to the realm", she absolutely does not want him to kiss/touch/or attempt sexual relations with her. This isn't a case of needing to know the person better, or being afraid of sex in the beginning. Nope, it's visceral revulsion.

2) Another reason: The theme of oathkeeping is huge in these books. In fact, oathkeeping is probably the most dominant moral theme. Marriage in the context of these books is an oath, and Sansa and Tyrion took that oath. Even though the marriage could be annulled, the oath still stands on a moral level. The attitude that the marriage should be annuled because the parties didn't choose each other is an attitude of our society, but doesn't fit with the attitudes and morality in these books.

So you're giving zero consideration to the fact that Sansa's oaths were made under duress? That she cried throughout the ceremony? Or that what the Lannisters did was to exploit a hostage for her claim? Please explain to me why Sansa should give a rat's ass about these oaths? Where is the morality in what was done to her, something that Tyrion willingly participated in? As for the part I highlighted in your statement, what are you talking about? Sansa's own family was aghast at what was done to her and many people in KL knew it was wrong too. Look at Sandor's reaction when he hears. This has nothing to do with "our society". The very suggestion is ludicrous.

3) I think that Tyrion had a lot of compassion and fondness for Sansa, as we saw when he thought to himself that he wanted her, he wanted to comfort her, to see her laugh, to have her bring him her joys and sorrows, etc. In the scene of Joffrey's wedding, I think he was on the brink of falling in love with her. He mentioned love in connection with her twice. Of course, in Book 5 he thinks she betrayed him by killing Joffrey and putting the blame on him, but somewhere down the line he will realize that she didn't.

And to all this I say so what? So what if Tyrion had compassion and fondness for Sansa? It doesn't stop him from exploiting her claim, but let's leave that aside for now. It does not matter if Tyrion has bucketloads of feelings for Sansa. She does not reciprocate them and that's what matters.

4) I think Sansa was having just a touch of regret about Tyrion after she went away. She said that she had a fluttering feeling when she thought she might never have to sleep with him again, and says she thought to herself" that's what she wanted . . . wasn't it?" The question seems to indicate a fleeting second thought.

No, you've misunderstood. What she doesn't want is for Tyrion to be killed for something he didn't do. She's a decent human being like that. I can assure she's not wishing she was back in the marriage bed with him.

She also feels concern that Tyrion was blamed for the murder of Joffrey, and acknowledges to herself that he was kind. She also seems to consider herself married to him.

As noted, decent human being. And you'll notice that Sansa only considers herself married to Tyrion when she is faced with more dehumanizing arrangements for her claim. Outside of that, Tyrion is usually the furthest thing from her thoughts. When she believed she would be able to settle in the Fingers as Alayne Stone, with no marriage or claim to bind her, she experienced a sense of relief.

I think the forshadowing is clear that she will have a romantic relationship with Sandor somewhere along the line (how far it will go, I don't know). As I mentioned, I think Sandor will become her protector, and will die defending her from something. I think that was forshadowed by the quote about how a dog won't lie to you, but he'll die for you. Then, after that Sandor's death, I think she will reconnect with Tyrion.

It's convenient how Sandor has to lay down and die for this reconnection with Tyrion don't you think? As for him dying, you could consider the symbolic death of the Hound - his dog persona - as having fulfilled that bit of the foreshadowing. Anyways, whether she hooks up with Sandor or not isn't important. There's nothing that could produce a happy marriage between Sansa and Tyrion, unless they're content to stay married and live completely separate lives. I don't see why she would want to reconnect with Tyrion after an experience with Sandor either. She'd be even less likely to accept the conditions of that marriage if she's known happiness and pleasure before.

[Naathi Prince]

It's illogical. Literally, by definition, it isn't based in logic. Because i apparently need to spell it out:

Just because B is a result of A does not mean that A is done for the express purpose of B.

If B is better than A, but you can have both A and B, you don't "choose" B over A.

Basically, you are utilizing a serious false dichotomy, framing frankly nonexistent intentions on characters, and overall ignoring the text because its inconvenient

I wasn't sure whether you were familiar with the concept.

I simplified your argument in order to expose its logical flaws (and have now spelled out those flaws), i refuted your alternatives, and i called into question your evidence (or lack thereof). What more do you want

Well, actually its a counterargument. My "argument" is just that your argument is wrong.

Hyperbole--Tyrion did not help with the plan whatsoever, he merely consented to its moving forward. Yes, he was a "co-conspirator", but that's abusing the inferences one makes about that word. it would be similar to someone calling Ned a "tyrant". Well, yes, technically correct, but it implies information that isn't true.

He doesn't want her to pretend, he wants to be able to comfort her and he wants her to love him, both in part because she's a hardcore woobie and because they are stuck together anyway. I don't understand the "she's just a child" argument against Tyrion since he's pretty much the only god damn person in KL to acknowledge that, and he never moves to rape her despite the criticism and ridicule it will bring. He feels a lot of regret about the marriage in general, and he does not feel comfortable in his attraction:

Ok, again, just because you think you are right, does not mean that you are being logical and I am not. You have made absolutely no argument that I am wrong about the very real motivations of Tyrion Lannister, who is most certainly a drunken lecher. Repeating my arguments and saying "this is not logical" without attacking any of the premises or even the logic involved is not an argument. Its pedantic. Ok, so I said co conspirator, which is true. so why do you keep bringing it up? Tyrion was a co conspirator because in the end, he wanted a big castle and a pretty little wife. As for him "wanting to comfort her", yes, he wanted to comfort her so she would like him, so he could have sex with her.

[Naathi Prince]

Okay, thank you. He didn't say that this was his favorite kind. He said that he prefers one kind to another. It's still gross to me, but that's not what you said either.

I think the statement right there pretty clearly implies that that is the kind of priest Tyrion prefers. Thats the kind he wants to be given. That implies that this is Tyrion's favorite kind of priest.

[Ser_Patreck]

Quick intervention:

Sansa is twelve by the time GoT starts.

ASoS is more or less 3 years later.

Do the math.

[TNine]

Ok, again, just because you think you are right, does not mean that you are being logical and I am not.

You can be wrong and be logical, but you are being neither. Your argument DOES NOT FOLLOW LOGIC. I have now EXPLICITLY outlined EXACTLY why that argument does NOT MAKE SENSE. It utilizes LOGICAL FALLACIES, which are NOT LOGIC.

You have made absolutely no argument that I am wrong

Your ability to ignore whats in the text is only outweighed by your ability to ignore what i'm saying, then. Here's an argument: Tyrion did not fail to rape to Sansa because he liked the way Shae inflated his ego. I have presented and proved this argument, will you please address that?

about the very real motivations of Tyrion Lannister, who is most certainly a drunken lecher.

What PROOF do you have of this? You make a claim, i use the text to disprove it, you ignore that.

Repeating my arguments and saying "this is not logical" without attacking any of the premises or even the logic involved is not an argument. Its pedantic.

Have you actually read any of my posts? I pointed out EXACTLY why the "logic" you were using was wrong, and used textual evidence to prove that Tyrion's motivations were not what you said they were.

Ok, so I said co conspirator, which is true. so why do you keep bringing it up? Tyrion was a co conspirator because in the end, he wanted a big castle and a pretty little wife.

God forbid. He wanted a wife that loves him and lots of nice things? Clearly he's an awful person. Wait, no, because when that action required that he does bad things, he doesn't do bad things.

As for him "wanting to comfort her", yes, he wanted to comfort her so she would like him, so he could have sex with her.

Because they are husband and wife...how is this bad again?

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I think Sansa and Tyrion will end up together; of course, I'm not sure, but that's my prediction. I I think a lot will happen before they finally get back together. I think Tyrion will find Tysha, and it will be a huge disappointment; and I think Sansa will have a major romantic encounter with Sandor, and then he will die defending her from some peril. Here's why I think Sansa and Tyrion will be a couple in the end.

1) In the context of these books, marriages and other romantic relationships based on attraction between the parties generally don't work out, and often lead to disaster. Examples include: Robb and Jeyne; Rhaegar and Lyanna; Jon and Ygrette. In the context of this series (i'm not saying it is true in real life), arranged marriages work out better. The best marriage by far is Ned & Cat. This was an arranged marriage, and neither was the other's first choice (Cat originally preferred Brandon; Ned apparently had some kind of crush on Ashara Dayne). I think the pattern of Cat and Ned will carry on to Sansa and Tyrion. I think each will have had another "first love" (Tyrion & Tysha; Sandor & Sansa), but it will be Sansa & Tyrion in the end.

2) Another reason: The theme of oathkeeping is huge in these books. In fact, oathkeeping is probably the most dominant moral theme. Marriage in the context of these books is an oath, and Sansa and Tyrion took that oath. Even though the marriage could be annulled, the oath still stands on a moral level. The attitude that the marriage should be annuled because the parties didn't choose each other is an attitude of our society, but doesn't fit with the attitudes and morality in these books.

3) I think that Tyrion had a lot of compassion and fondness for Sansa, as we saw when he thought to himself that he wanted her, he wanted to comfort her, to see her laugh, to have her bring him her joys and sorrows, etc. In the scene of Joffrey's wedding, I think he was on the brink of falling in love with her. He mentioned love in connection with her twice. Of course, in Book 5 he thinks she betrayed him by killing Joffrey and putting the blame on him, but somewhere down the line he will realize that she didn't.

I have a theory about how Tyrion will find Tysha but it will be a total disappointment, but I won't go into it now.

4) I think Sansa was having just a touch of regret about Tyrion after she went away. She said that she had a fluttering feeling when she thought she might never have to sleep with him again, and says she thought to herself" that's what she wanted . . . wasn't it?" The question seems to indicate a fleeting second thought. She also feels concern that Tyrion was blamed for the murder of Joffrey, and acknowledges to herself that he was kind. She also seems to consider herself married to him.

I think the forshadowing is clear that she will have a romantic relationship with Sandor somewhere along the line (how far it will go, I don't know). As I mentioned, I think Sandor will become her protector, and will die defending her from something. I think that was forshadowed by the quote about how a dog won't lie to you, but he'll die for you. Then, after that Sandor's death, I think she will reconnect with Tyrion.

1. Sansa and Tyrion was more like Ramsay and Jeyne. It was NOT like Ned and Cat. Cat's father had interest in her well being. None of the Lannisters did. Cat was not regularly beaten. Sansa was.

2. What brashcandy said. Is there any other case where oaths made under duress are expected to be held or fate "gets back" at the people who break them? Besides, annulment would not break the oath. Ignoring the marriage and marrying someone else anyways.

3. Again, what brashcandy said. I want to say, I didn't see where he was falling in love with her. He tried because he wanted to have a marriage that was a love marriage, not because he loved Sansa.

Again, this is NOT a good match for Tyrion.

4. Damn you brashcandy for being quicker than I am. ;) I actually have nothing to add here.

[TNine]

Quick intervention:

Sansa is twelve by the time GoT starts.

ASoS is more or less 3 years later.

Do the math.

“How old are you, Sansa?” asked Tyrion, after a moment.

“Thirteen,” she said, “when the moon turns.”

She's twelve during the wedding. And i'm pretty sure she's eleven in AGOT.

[Aleenys]

Wow, are people seriously arguing whether he wanted Sansa or not? I must have missed an entire book of Tyrion's inner dialogue saying he wanted her to love him, recognize his kindness someday, think about kissing her or thinking her beautiful even when she's sad.

His entire thoughts read like this: "Oh why won't she look at me, she hates me, I'm a Lannister to her and she won't even talk to me, I want her to love me and accept me in her bed, I want to kiss her but she'll be disgusted, look at how beautiful she looks when she's sad..."

Not like this: "Oh she's a pretty girl, but what the heck am I doing she's a child, I'm not supposed to feel like this about her, plus she probably hates me for forcing her into marriage when I promised I would return her to her family, she's scared, depressed and sad I should do whatever I can do to protect her not out of hope that she will come to love me someday but because I'm a decent human being, not like, I will ever EVER think about her bringing her joys and sorrows and lust to me because that would be a sick thing to hope for, not because it's wishful thinking but it's WRONG on so many levels because her life is hell without me lusting after her already. Oh I and I feel guilty for not doing these and having affections for a 12 year old child. NOT."

[LifeRuiner]

I think the statement right there pretty clearly implies that that is the kind of priest Tyrion prefers. Thats the kind he wants to be given. That implies that this is Tyrion's favorite kind of priest.

Seriously, this kind of statement doesn't imply anything about your favorite kind. It is a comparison between two things. If you prefer one to another, it doesn't mean that you will choose it for yourself in the end. I'm not trying to be a dick either, your conclusion is just reaching.

[Winter's Knight]

Seriously, this kind of statement doesn't imply anything about your favorite kind. It is a comparison between two things. If you prefer one to another, it doesn't mean that you will choose it for yourself in the end. I'm not trying to be a dick either, your conclusion is just reaching.

To be precise, he prefers corrupt priests who molest children over those who are pious.

[TNine]

Wow, are people seriously arguing whether he wanted Sansa or not? I must have missed an entire book of Tyrion's inner dialogue saying he wanted her to love him, recognize his kindness someday, think about kissing her or thinking her beautiful even when she's sad.

I don't think that anyone has made the argument that Tyrion did not want Sansa.

His entire thoughts read like this: "Oh why won't she look at me, she hates me, I'm a Lannister to her and she won't even talk to me, I want her to love me and accept me in her bed, I want to kiss her but she'll be disgusted, look at how beautiful she looks when she's sad..."

This is...actually a pretty good summary of his thoughts. I don't see anything inherently bad about this, though--it wasn't like Tyrion was acting malignant. All things said and done, Sansa loving him would actually be much better for her, too.

Not like this: "Oh she's a pretty girl, but what the heck am I doing she's a child, I'm not supposed to feel like this about her, plus she probably hates me for forcing her into marriage when I promised I would return her to her family, she's scared, depressed and sad I should do whatever I can do to protect her not out of hope that she will come to love me someday but because I'm a decent human being, not like, I will ever EVER think about her bringing her joys and sorrows and lust to me because that would be a sick thing to hope for, not because it's wishful thinking but it's WRONG on so many levels because her life is hell without me lusting after her already. Oh I and I feel guilty for not doing these and having affections for a 12 year old child. NOT."

Her life is hell aplenty, but i don't think Tyrion's lusting does much to change that. Tyrion wants her but does not act on that, he is at least willing to suffer the consequences of not bedding her for her own sake. He is a decent human being, but not a great one--he wants his forced bride to love her, which isn't bad, but doesn't delude himself into thinking that she can.

[Naathi Prince]

Quick intervention:

Sansa is twelve by the time GoT starts.

ASoS is more or less 3 years later.

Do the math.

not really, not all the timelines are synched, and Sansa says Alayne, who she decided is older than Sansa, is 14.

[Garlan Marius]

Quick intervention:

Sansa is twelve by the time GoT starts.

ASoS is more or less 3 years later.

Do the math.

AGoT is in 298 AL, ASoS starts in 299, with 300 starting on Joff's wedding day. Sansa is born in 286, so she's pushing 13.

[Naathi Prince]

Wow, are people seriously arguing whether he wanted Sansa or not? I must have missed an entire book of Tyrion's inner dialogue saying he wanted her to love him, recognize his kindness someday, think about kissing her or thinking her beautiful even when she's sad.

His entire thoughts read like this: "Oh why won't she look at me, she hates me, I'm a Lannister to her and she won't even talk to me, I want her to love me and accept me in her bed, I want to kiss her but she'll be disgusted, look at how beautiful she looks when she's sad..."

Not like this: "Oh she's a pretty girl, but what the heck am I doing she's a child, I'm not supposed to feel like this about her, plus she probably hates me for forcing her into marriage when I promised I would return her to her family, she's scared, depressed and sad I should do whatever I can do to protect her not out of hope that she will come to love me someday but because I'm a decent human being, not like, I will ever EVER think about her bringing her joys and sorrows and lust to me because that would be a sick thing to hope for, not because it's wishful thinking but it's WRONG on so many levels because her life is hell without me lusting after her already. Oh I and I feel guilty for not doing these and having affections for a 12 year old child. NOT."

Well put, Aleenys.

[LifeRuiner]

Anyway, back to the OP. I hope not.

Sansa deserves to star in her own story rather than to be a supporting actress in Tyrion's. I like him well enough, but Sansa shouldn't be his prize.

[Naathi Prince]

Seriously, this kind of statement doesn't imply anything about your favorite kind. It is a comparison between two things. If you prefer one to another, it doesn't mean that you will choose it for yourself in the end. I'm not trying to be a dick either, your conclusion is just reaching.

if I offer you oatmeal cookies, and you say, 'no, give me chocolate chip' I can logically infer next time I offer you cookies, I should offer chocolate chip, as it is likely your favorite kind.

[Kittykatknits]

Quick intervention:

Sansa is twelve by the time GoT starts.

ASoS is more or less 3 years later.

Do the math.

No. She was 12 when they got married, it was about a month before her birthday. She was 11 in GoT.

[Ser_Patreck]

AGoT is in 298 AL, ASoS starts in 299, with 300 starting on Joff's wedding day. Sansa is born in 286, so she's pushing 13.

297, actually, no? ASoS happens, in almost it's entirety, in 300 AL. Joffrey's nameday is close to the beginning of the book, so I thought by Sansa's wedding the year would be at it's later middle, at least.

Oh, well. George has never been good with timelines, anyway.

[Naathi Prince]

AGoT is in 298 AL, ASoS starts in 299, with 300 starting on Joff's wedding day. Sansa is born in 286, so she's pushing 13.

oh great, she's almost 13 that makes it so much better.

[TNine]

if I offer you oatmeal cookies, and you say, 'no, give me chocolate chip' I can logically infer next time I offer you cookies, I should offer chocolate chip, as it is likely your favorite kind.

And if he says "no, i'd rather have a cookie that tastes like puke", can you infer that a cookie that tastes like puke is his favorite kind?