What are the odds of Sansa and Tyrion ending up together?

[David Selig]

Those in favour of them ending up together must really hate Sansa. I wouldn't wish Tyrion for a husband on my worst enemy.

[Kittykatknits]

Those in favour of them ending up together must really hate Sansa. I wouldn't wish Tyrion for a husband on my worst enemy.

Some of the those who are most vocal in being support of this union actually don't like Sansa at all....

[Pellaeon]

Those in favour of them ending up together must really hate Sansa. I wouldn't wish Tyrion for a husband on my worst enemy.

Some of the those who are most vocal in being support of this union actually don't like Sansa at all....

I actually like Sansa, I just don't hate Tyrion.

[Pellaeon]

Was he? Jaime was able to say now, Cersei was able to say now.

Cersei may said no but this didn't matter for Tywin, she ran to Jaime for help and even Kevan said that Tywin plan to marry her off, she wasn't able to say no. And Jaime could say no, because he was a member of the KG, if not, I doubt Tywin would let him of the hook

[brashcandy]

I actually like Sansa, I just don't hate Tyrion.

Well if you like Sansa and you don't hate Tyrion wishing them together doesn't quite reflect that. For both their sakes they're better off apart.

[Lyanna Stark]

Those in favour of them ending up together must really hate Sansa. I wouldn't wish Tyrion for a husband on my worst enemy.

Not necessarily. It's also possible to expect the trope that the female character is simply placed within the story to be the hero's love interest. She, herself, has no meaning and no agency. Her place within the story is to fall in love with the hero, once he has proven himself Worthy.

It's the same old story with Hero points: once the hero is found Worthy enough, or is Redeemed enough, then the heroine will fall in love with him regardless of other difficulties since he has now proven himself worthy enough, and has earned enough hero points. It's the same trope as in all the old fairy tales when the male heterosexual hero needed to go out and slay a dragon/giant/troll and then once he got home, he could get the love of the maiden fair, only this is slightly more modern. You see it all the time in movies even now. The female character simply HAS to respect the hero point rule and fall in love with the hero once the audience feels he has gained enough points.

This is where Sansa fails of course, to the audience (or some of the audience) since she has the audacity to not love Tyrion. She plain doesn't want him, and upon anything but a cursory reading, it is fairly obvious that she has good reasons not to love him. She hates the Lannisters, she finds him unattractive, they have nothing in common. That bit is simple.

Where it fails is that for a lot of readers, Tyrion as of ASOS is a hero, and he should therefore deserve the love of whichever woman he desires. So according to these rules, Sansa ought to "see the value in him", i.e. respect the hero points, but she doesn't. She here exerts a will of her own and it doesn't fall in line with the audience's expectations. Hence all the comments about how "Sansa should learn to love Tyrion" you see thrown around.

Since people are so used to seeing this trope, they get pissed off when it's subverted and cannot accept that.

If we accept instead that there should actually be a connection, respect, rapport between characters for a match to work, then it's clear to see that Tyrion and Sansa lack these things completely. Instead we see failed communication, mistrust and Sansa's revulsion at Tyrion's looks. Not to mention the Lannister vs Stark feud which Tyrion himself states cannot be healed within this generation.

It falls into the same category as when people think Sansa's character is pointless because "she doesn't do anything": their expectations of what Sansa ought to be (a tomboy, or a murderess or someone who could star in Kill Bill) are not what the author set out to create with Sansa. Hence the anger and disappointment, instead of questioning what the intention with her character was (probably leading towards a variation of Steel in Silk imho).

This also doesn't touch upon the fact that wishing Tyrion and Sansa to be together is wishing for Sansa's subjugation. It is a wish for her to submit, to accept the terrible thing that happened to her. It is denying her agency.

EDIT: This is also one of the reasons people object to Brienne holding a candle for Jaime: he is not heroic enough and has not deserved her. What Brienne herself thinks here is beside the point: the hero points speak for themselves.

[Ser_Patreck]

Yes, after having been threatened by Cersei with a sound beating, as it happens. And may I draw your attention to the fact that Sansa cries straight through the ceremony. It should be obvious from this reading that Sansa is miserable with the situation and believes she has no choice.

Unless you somehow wish to argue that Sansa went ahead with the marriage willingly because she said the vows?

Only if you somehow wish to argue that Tyrion was comfortable and happy with the marriage since he said the vows.

Which one tried to run away? Which one was threatened with being beaten? Which one was the child? Which one had just been dragged there by men who had once beaten her?

Which one tried to argue? Which one was threatened bu his own father? Which one had an abusive early childhood? Which one was ordered there by the man who sexually abused him?

[Garlan Marius]

0%. Higher if Tyrion invests in lemon cakes.

[brashcandy]

Some of the those who are most vocal in being support of this union actually don't like Sansa at all....

Well we all know this is about 70% punishing Sansa and the remaining going towards rewarding Tyrion.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Some of the those who are most vocal in being support of this union actually don't like Sansa at all....

Hey, I'm a card-carrying Sansa-hater but I still think this is an impossible and illogical union.

(I'm also squicked by the idea that a guy who has banged every working girl he can get his hands on being gifted with a 13-year-old virgin -- or a 15, 16, or 17-year-old virgin. Yuck.)

[Pellaeon]

Well if you like Sansa and you don't hate Tyrion wishing them together doesn't quite reflect that. For both their sakes they're better off apart.

Don't think so, but this all of (they stay together or not/they fit together or not)this is a subjective evaluation of the text and the individual understanding of each reader.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

1. he's Stark-neutral, which is a big step up from the Rock's current stance as a bunch of Stark haters. And don't we all sort of agree that R+L=J is nicely positioned to be the thing that warms Daenerys up to the Starks?

2. you got it. that's it. still allows Martin to buck the trend, perhaps even having Tyrion mock the cliche while performing it. I'm coming up with this stuff as we speak, so her character arc would still be meaningful because...................... it's going to take all the bravery and political acumen she's gathered to walk the path ahead and reshape the world, and all her time spent with fakers has prepared her to recognize a real knight in shining armor when she sees one, even if he's not shiny and not a knight and she has to look down instead of up to see him. Whatever. Everybody discounts the possibility, which is why I like it, sort of like how that guy in the ADwD section of the forum has his Heresy topic (x20). But I'm done now.

1. I was using it as an example. Her views don't really matter here. I should have used the Tyrells who seem to be moving against the Lannisters but were no friends of Sansa once they could no longer use her instead.

2. Wow. That would be horrible. Her whole arc is learn ugly people are OK? That's rather pointless. It's not like Sansa was that superficial. She preferred handsome guys like Loras and Joffery, but she didn't loathe ugly people. It also kinda ignores that Sandor fits this theme more since he has already been her shining knight from the stories twice. First when he saved her during the riots. The second during BBW where she rejected him.

So, Tyrion/Sansa as a Beauty and Beast thing is silly because Sandor fits it better (he also can work beyond Sansa-is-no-longer-a-stuck-up-bitch-and-sees-ugly-people-as-people pairing).

Also, I still do not get what Tyrion is getting from Sansa? Couldn't some other lovely girl/woman accept him for who he is without the poisonous background of Tyrion and Sansa's marriage?

[mcb]

When HE added the title husband? When did HE do that? I seem to remember that he was being just as coerced as she.

Not exactly as her, no. In the end, he had a choice, while Sansa did not. However, Tyrion did protest five times, offering five different arguments against this match. He was clearly against, which seems to get forgotten surprisingly easily.

[Queen Cersei I]

Question and Answers, with Queen Cersei I

Poster Question: When will Tyrion and Sansa end up together?

Answer: "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Queen Cersei I. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When posters stop accepting the offensive but widely accepted notion that it's only natural for ugly guys to be attracted to girls on the basis of their looks alone, but females holding the exact same standards are automatically "shallow." When Varys the eunuchs womb quickens, and he gives birth to a living chicken, who will become the prince who was promised, and save all of Westeros. Then Sansa and Tyrion will "get together," and not before."

Tyrion fanboy/girls: OMGz, that totally means it's totally gonna happen in TWOW, guyz!

[Lyanna Stark]

Only if you somehow wish to argue that Tyrion was comfortable and happy with the marriage since he said the vows.

I don't see a reason to believe that Tyrion was comfortable with saying the vows.

This is also the reason why I am baffled that you think the marriage has a future. Neither Tyrion nor Sansa are happy in it. Their personalities don't mesh, she doesn't understand his jokes and he cannot appreciate her seriousness. They cannot communicate, they don't respect eachother or trust eachother.

The bottom line is: apart from having said the vows, they have nothing that binds them together. Both of them would be happier somewhere else.

EDIT: Hell, Tyrion even tries to prevent Sansa from hearing more songs "The last thing my wife needs is more songs".

[Kukushka]

What threat did Tywin hold over Tyrion? What beatings did he promise? Did he threaten to disinherit him of Casterly Rock? (Which he already had, btw Tywin thought that was Jaime's).

Why are you assuming that threats are the only way to coerce anyone? Read the text - Does Tyrion at any time seem happy with the marriage? No. He goes through with it because he's a Lannister (and hasn't, at that point, totally turned his back on his family), and because he feels duty-bound to comply. That's not the same as saying that HE added the title of husband to that of jailer (which would imply that it was his idea, or that he was somehow pushing for it).

Believe it or not, Tyrion is entitled to his own storyline too...

I happen to like both Tyrion and Sansa. They aren't perfect for each other, and they certainly would never share passion for each other or anything, but I do think that they would make a good team if they worked together rather than against each other.

[brashcandy]

Not exactly as her, no. In the end, he had a choice, while Sansa did not. However, Tyrion did protest five times, offering five different arguments against this match. He was clearly against, which seems to get forgotten surprisingly easily.

We call what Tyrion did protesting? Seriously?

Tyrion let them have their byplay; it was all for his benefit he knew.

No protest.

That seems singularly cruel, even for you Father.

Yes, that was really standing up to Tywin.

The truth is, Tywin allows himself to be persuaded. He offers mild objections to the match, like stating Sansa is still a child, which Tywin can easily conquer. There is no true protest anywhere in that passage.

[Lyanna Stark]

Why are you assuming that threats are the only way to coerce anyone? Read the text - Does Tyrion at any time seem happy with the marriage? No. He goes through with it because he's a Lannister (and hasn't, at that point, totally turned his back on his family), and because he feels duty-bound to comply. That's not the same as saying that HE added the title of husband to that of jailer (which would imply that it was his idea, or that he was somehow pushing for it).

Oh I promise you. I HAVE read the text, more times than you have, most likely. And this is not the place to have another rehash of the Mrs Sansa Lannister, but suffice to say your interpretation of the text is in many people's eyes, including mine, a complete and utter whitewashing of Tyrion.

Believe it or not, Tyrion is entitled to his own storyline too...

Did I ever state he was not entitled to his own storyline? No? Then what is the problem? We have Sansa and Tyrion in a marriage, where the level of coercion Sansa experiences as a 13 year old hostage being victim to frequent beating is several levels higher than the vague threats issued by Tywin.

If in doubt: swap Tyrion for Jon Snow. Would Jon Snow, in Tyrion's position, married a 13 year old hostage because someone in power said so? Would Ned Stark have married a 13 year old hostage against her will?

Jon Snow gets offered Val and Winterfell by Stannis, and Stannis has an army at his disposal and can, if he wants to, depose Jon. Jon has many enemies within the watch and Stannis can surely find another LC, yet Jon says no, despite wanting both Winterfell and Val (in fact he says it's Sansa's).

Jon is bastard born and was always an outsider, a bit like Tyrion. Why is Tyrion's actions acceptable, when Jon made a different choice and it is recognised as right? Arguably, Jon's destiny had Stannis deposed him would have been grim, since the new LC would very likely be someone like the Pomegranate.

I happen to like both Tyrion and Sansa. They aren't perfect for each other, and they certainly would never share passion for each other or anything, but I do think that they would make a good team if they worked together rather than against each other.

I disagree. They have nothing in common. I'd challenge you to name one thing Tyrion and Sansa has in common that isn't something like "dislikes Cersei", but a personality trait, interest, views on life, etc.

[Ser_Patreck]

Both, I imagine since I assumed they were tied together, but in that case I'd say why I think you are coming around to Sansa and Tyrion as a good match, yes. For either or them. Since you normally have fairly level headed views I'd be very interesting to hear how you can reach this conclusion based on the evidence of what we have seen in the novels so far, using character analysis, themes, etc. and also to somehow get to the point where the hostage situation in which they were joined does not matter any more.

Hrmm, very well.

Why do I believe they have ~60% chance of ending up together.

This one is strictly literary analysis, mind, without any value judgement. That is, I'm not arguing what would be "good", or what I "want to happen", but what seem probable.

Simply put, I write as well, and read a lot, and I can see a storyline developing. Tyrion and Sansa didn't reach closure yet. Their tale together, simply, doesn't feel as if it was told in it's entirety. There's still something to happen. Now, you could say that they can reach closure in, say, meeting and agreeing to end the marriage. It's a possibility. A strong one at that. But their themes and story arcs as individual characters don't point that way.

One of Sansa's themes is "Beauty Doesn't Equal Goodness" or "Not All Heroes Are Tall and Fair of Face". Joffrey is beautiful, but is a sadistic prick. Cersei is beautiful, and is paranoid and cruel. Sandor isn't beautiful, but it was among the only ones to stand up for her. Ser Dontos. Margaery Tyrell, beautiful, but left her as soon as possible. The list goes on. One of possible conclusions would be her marrying a someone that is not beautiful, but was kind to her through her ordeals. Sandor could fit the bill as easily as Tyrion, perhaps, but there is some sense of closure to Sandor's tale. And there are other points.

On Tyrion's side we have The Tysha Affair. A huge part of his character development turns around his difficult relationship with women. Another is his desire to protect, even nurture, people that are "broken" like him. When they're married, and later, Tyrion is thinking that he wanted to keep Sansa safe in a way he couldn't keep Tysha. He tends to view women through the Madonna/Magdalena axis (With most women falling under Magdalena, I might add). Simply put, Tyrion has problems with the idea that a woman could love him, stunted and ugly as he is. Cobine this point with Sansa's "Not All Heroes.." theme and a picture starts to form.

Then we have the Power Couple angle. Tyrion is a decent player. He's the most comfortable with schemes and backroom deals. Sansa is in her way to become a player herself. There's some similarity between them and their siblings - Arya and Jaime would rather behead the Troll in the Bridge than pay it's toll. Sansa and Tyrion would rather sweet-talk with it. They are both scions of Great House, you could argue even the main Great Houses in the story. Combination. Joining forces. The Roses of Lancaster and York becoming the Rose of Tudor. All that Jazz.

There are other points, but the main gist of it is up there already. They're main character, their story themes conflate, it would be somewhat surprisingfor your casual reader...

Now. You may dislike some of it. I, personally, have no sympathy for "Power Couples". At least not in this case. However, we're talking here about direction the author would probably take, and well...

Why I am coming around to the idea of seeing them together.

Brutal honesty? I'd have a kick at watching the fandom's reactions.

[Pellaeon]

I will performe a victory dance for hours if they come together in the next book, and I will start a topic with the title: "Boo-yaah", just for reading all your reactions